Season 4 Episode 7 Lindley Ashline | Embodiment for the Rest of Us

Jenn: Welcome to our 4th season of the Embodiment for the Rest of Us podcast, a series exploring topics and intersections that exist in fat, queer, and disability liberation (and beyond!!)! You can consider this an anti-oppressive and generative space full of repair and intention.

Chavonne: In this podcast, we interview those with lived experience and professionals alike to learn how they are affecting radical change and how we can all make this world a safer and more welcoming place for all humans who are historically and currently marginalized and should be centered, listened to, and supported.

Jenn: Captions and content warnings are provided in the show notes for each episode, including specific time stamps, so that you can skip triggering content any time that feels supportive to you! This podcast is a representation of our co-host and guest experiences and may not be reflective of yours. These conversations are not medical advice, and are not a substitute for mental health or nutrition support.

Chavonne: In addition, the conversations held here are not exhaustive in their scope or levels of inquiry. These topics, these perspectives are not complete and are always in process. These are just highlights! Just like posts on social media, individual articles, or any other podcast – this is just a snapshot of the full picture.

Jenn: We are always interested in any feedback on this process, especially if you feel something needs to be addressed. We invite you to email us at Listener@EmbodimentForTheRestOfUs.com with any comments, requests, or concerns.

[1:44]

(C): Hello from Season 4 Episode 7 of the Embodiment for the Rest of Us podcast. In today’s episode, we have the second part of our deep dive conversation with Lindley Ashline (she/her).

(J): Lindley Ashline creates photographs that celebrate the unique beauty of bodies that fall outside conventional “beauty” standards. She fights weight stigma by giving plus-size people a safe place to explore how their bodies look on camera and by increasing the representation of big bodies in photography, advertising, fine art and the world at large.

(C): Lindley is also the creator of Body Liberation Stock (body-positive stock images for commercial use) and the Body Love Shop (a curated resource for body-friendly products and artwork). Find Lindley’s work and get her free weekly Body Liberation Guide at Bit.Ly/BodyLiberationGuide.

(J): Lindley can be found online at:

Their Website: BodyLiberationPhotos.com

Instagram: @BodyLiberationWithLindley

Facebook: BodyLiberationPhotos

Bluesky: @Lindley.Bsky.Social

(C): Wherever and however you are listening to this today, you are in for another incredible conversation. We are so glad you’re here!

[3:01]

Chavonne (she/her):

We are back for the second part of our deep dive with Lindley Ashline, she/her who is joining us from the Pacific Northwest area outside of Seattle. We just can’t get enough. Oh, just can’t get enough. Sorry. How are you today and how have you been since then, Lindley?

Lindley (she/her):

I’m so delighted to be back. So delighted to have-

Chavonne (she/her):

So excited you’re here.

Lindley (she/her):

… a conversation with y’all. And so disappointed because I’ve just been informed that we can’t actually have a five or six-hour conversation this time because one of us has a hard stop and then just it’s tragic. My heart is broken because we could just talk all day, every day.

Jenn (she/they):

We could.

Lindley (she/her):

It’s such a delight to be with y’all.

Jenn (she/they):

Thank you.

Chavonne (she/her):

We’ll do it for season five too. Have the season.

Lindley (she/her):

Done, check.

Jenn (she/they):

Check. Done.

Chavonne (she/her):

Done.

[3:49]

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah. I love that. We had made ourselves a note. We were talking about this pond as metaphor, the wetlands as metaphor last time. Just curious what we’re all thinking about that again today? Lindley, you were talking about the wetlands that the I-5 freeway goes over, the interstate goes over and how it’s a self-cleaning ecosystem. A great analogy for the body taking care of itself. Not that we have to be the self cleaners inside of all of the toxic cleansing and detoxifying logic, but more in we can let our body do its thing. We can support our bodies and that’s a really important part of getting to be a full human is that we don’t have to try to take over that kind of stuff. So I’m just curious how that sat with all of us just to start us off.

Lindley (she/her):

Yeah. And of course a wetland, thinking about that one on I-5 between Seattle and Tacoma, it is a self-sustaining ecosystem, but at the same time it’s very intricate. It’s going to be a working day.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah, same.

Lindley (she/her):

Intricately [inaudible] we’re connected with the ecosystems all around it. And I think what immediately popped up for me this morning when you started talking about our pond and our wetland analogy is both how as humans we are deeply interconnected with the humans around us in the same way that that ecosystem is part of broader webs of life. It’s okay to be interconnected and it’s okay to depend on at least partly depending on our life situations, possibly fully on others.

And to take it a little farther on healthcare, not all of our bodies are self-cleaning. Some folks need say dialysis, and there is no more shame in needing more interconnection to survive or to thrive than it would be for, say, the riparian buffer around a stream or that wetland to help filter out toxins or road trash before it gets into the wetland. That’s morally neutral. Nobody looks at that wetland and says, “It’s your fault. There’s a soda can that fell in.” Again, to stretch this analogy really far, because we put an interstate over that wetland, it’s not that wetland’s fault that more trash is going to fall in is humans are bringing more trash into that area.

It is because that environment has been changed and damaged. Also, we were talking right before we started recording that it’s very hot. As we’re recording, it’s the middle of July and I don’t have air conditioning in my house. I swear this is relevant. Because my house was built in the 1960s and up until the last couple of decades, as I understand it… I’ve been here for nine years. Before that I lived in a different climate on the East Coast. But my understanding is that almost no one in the Seattle area had air conditioning until recently because it wasn’t needed. The climate was different.

So here it is a noticeable change over time. The summers are hotter. The summers here, my understanding is they have always been dry. It’s the only time things dry out here because the rest of the time everything is damp. I wouldn’t be surprised to wake up one day in March sometime and discover that moss is growing on me. It’s just that damp all the time. So the summers here have always been dry and relatively warm, but not like sweltering warm. And that is the change that is happening as the climate changes.

So more people now are getting AC and a lot of new construction has AC. Now I’m coming back from my tangent. Oh, but some of the changes in climate change are relatively subtle because when we think as humans about a one degree Fahrenheit or a one degree Celsius change in the environment around us, that’s just not that noticeable for us as humans. But when you go back to that wetland and you say, that’s a one degree change, that might be enough to push one of the species that lives in that wetland out of that territory and maybe bring another one in.

It changes those subtle changes in the environment whether they are natural or human created, change that environment and bringing this all the way back to the interconnectedness and the environments that our bodies and our brains live in. Those subtle changes around us create changes in us. So as we think about humans, as we think about ourselves and our body image and even our health as these ponds and these bodies of water, there are days when one soda can getting knocked into our pond… Again, to make this analogy really, really tortured, one soda can getting knocked into the pond, some days we can be like, “Okay, fine,” and just chuck it right back out.

But other days, that little change, that soda can, which might be a particularly bad health day, if you have a chronic illness, it might be one fat phobic comment, it might just be, I don’t know, you accidentally dump your coffee on your shoes as you’re going to work. That can change. It can ripple out and make a bigger change in our lives. And again, these are morally neutral. The soda can getting knocked into the wetland. I mean, can we not? But as far as the wetland is concerned, it’s morally neutral. It’s not the wetland’s fault in the same way that it’s not our fault when metaphorical trash gets dumped into our lives.

But at the same time, now the wetland has a soda can in it. Now I have that fat phobic comment or that interview outfit that I really need and I can’t find because there’s nothing in my size. Whatever. That is now on me to have to deal with in some way. And so for me that comes back to the interconnectedness and the resilience because it’s not on us as individuals a hundred percent of the time to deal with the soda cans that get knocked into our ponds. We need to be able to have community around us to help us deal with that.

Chavonne (she/her):

That’s so good. What’s coming to mind, as you were saying it is, yeah, the pond is metaphor. So with things coming across us or around us, against us, whatever, we have to be more… In addition to things, more things falling in, we have to be more intentional, sometimes I think about cleaning ourselves out. So if you’re taking on more work, if you are growing in a relationship, growing your family, if you have health issues like you said, all of these things, this interstate is coming across your pond.

So you just have to be more aware before it’s so filled that you have to completely shut down to clean it out. That’s what’s coming up for me. That’s how I’m seeing it in what you were saying. Absolutely.

Jenn (she/they):

Like burnout as far as the body or the mind is concerned. I was thinking about that too. I love that. What both of you pointed out that I was really peaking in my mind was the direction of what is happening. It’s happening to us. It’s happening at us. That’s one of the reasons that it’s morally neutral. Not that there’s anything not morally neutral about having autonomy and making our choices, but it really highlights how it’s not even a possibility for it to be our moral obligation or something like that because it’s happening to us at us.

That always reminds me of the social determinants of health, which I’ve heard referred to as the social determinants of illness, which feels like the correct description of the directionality itself because our systems, our government, our world at large, news cycles, wellness and industrial, our medical industrial complex things, they’re not sitting there promoting our wellness, our health and wellbeing, whatever that means to us.

It’s promoting illness. It’s going the other direction, the more stressful direction. And you mentioned resilience, Lindley. So it requires us to be resilient. So we wake up as a person and we already have to be resilient the second we wake up because we’re still having effects from yesterday while we slept, et cetera. When you’re talking about communal spaces, I’ve been thinking a lot lately about mutuality and how who needs the support right now is such an important part of the conversation.

If that can gets dumped into the wetland, that’s the spot that needs that. Whether it’s another part of the system itself, the wetland system that filters it out, or someone who works on I-5 needs to go in there and grab that or whatever the situation is. And then with everything being interconnected, this actually reminded me of disability justice or access in general, enabling access, how a whole bunch of cans that if they were to accumulate somewhere where you can’t easily see from different vantage points, how they can block flow in the wetland, how toxins in the environment can make it so your body can’t detoxify itself.

You need something like dialysis. Aging, we are just people and we age and things don’t filter the same and all of that. And so just hearing a lot of really interesting analogies in that. So I’m going to have to play with that some more. So I love what you both said because it was highlighting not just the systemic nature and the dynamic nature versus static and isolated, but that whether we like it or not, whether we admit it or not, whether any of that, everything like that is interconnected.

So paying attention to it feels really important because individual human actions at our level did not create climate change. It’s a much, much, much bigger thing than that. Polluting an entire river is not something my community and I can do very successfully because we’re not creating that many toxins that’s happening at an industrial level. So just thinking about that and just lack of access in a medical system or any other system, just lets that stuff accumulate. I actually really like that analogy because sometimes-

Chavonne (she/her):

Me too.

Jenn (she/they):

It’s quite a drag to be in this work on a daily basis and just be really acquainted with how much harm is directed at our bodies. So I love the pond as metaphor to just be like, “I would love to mentally sit in some wetlands and think about this.” That actually sounds peaceful even though it’s about hard stuff. So I just appreciate that.

Chavonne (she/her):

I also really appreciate that you mentioned community because I have a internal/external… Because I talk about it, a struggle with the word resilience and it feels so individualistic. It feels so privileged at times. But I really like the… Or maybe not community, but we did say community, but the interconnectedness, the awareness of how much we need support and finding the willingness to ask for support is so… It’s just as important as resilience. So I really appreciate that too. For sure.

Lindley (she/her):

And something else that has come up for me about bodies and wetlands… Like I said, I’m going to drive this analogy to the ground.

Chavonne (she/her):

I love it.

Jenn (she/they):

I love analogies.

Lindley (she/her):

One of the things that I end up talking a lot about… Actually let me come with this from another direction. Okay. A number of years ago, back when I lived in Virginia, I was out in the woods somewhere probably at a state park and there was a beautiful river flowing through the woods. And as I got close to the edge of it, I saw something odd in the water, in the shallow water where it was a still water back at the edge of this river. As I got closer to it, you could see that it was bones. And then as I was kind of… I couldn’t get close enough to it. I didn’t know that I wanted to get all that close to it to poke it.

But as I was walking around and looking at it trying to figure out what it was, I realized that it was the jaw bone of what was probably a deer. And it was in the mud. And so my first response was a little bit visceral partly because of the mud, partly because I don’t have bones. Then it seemed very sad. I don’t know how these bones ended up in the river, but there was death involved here and it was very sad. And then because I’m a photographer, I took some photos of it and moved along.

But as I think about water and wetlands and stories and bodies, and of course as we think about nature and bodies, and of course our bodies, no matter how much we want to pretend they’re not are part of nature. We are natural. We’re animals just as much as that deer is. But now as I look back on that moment and think about it, that river was part of that deer story and that deer is part of that river story. So both the thinking about the intertwining of stories, but also thinking about the stories that we hold in our bodies in the same way that this something that could be seen as ugly or gross is part of that river.

In the same way, think about that. A few years ago I photographed a woman who had a very large surgery scar from heart surgery basically in her cleavage. She was very sensitive about it because it’s a very large visible scar and it has ever since I’ve been thinking about scars and body stories and the things we accumulate. The point is that, of course, that river is way older than I am, and so that river has way more stories. And not all of those stories are fun, pleasant things, but they are valuable because they are stories. They are the history.

And so I feel like I quite end up up quite often talking with clients and in my writing about the stories that we hold in our bodies because that surgery scar… Of course, this woman was very sensitive about that and she allowed me to photograph it and it is now one of my favorite photographs. I think it’s in my shop as a fine art print right now.

Jenn (she/they):

It is. Yeah, I remember it.

Lindley (she/her):

Yeah. It’s black and white and it’s an older woman. You can see the texture of her skin and so on. But the point of this is that the stories that are in our bodies, and this woman is such a good example because she was so sensitive about that scar being visible because it is not considered beautiful, but from my point of view, it’s morally neutral. It’s just a story. And of course that scars part of other people’s stories too. The medical folks who performed that surgery and so on.

Even in small ways that one degree Fahrenheit, these little changes in the environment, even the person who booked her into the hospital that day for that surgery, because we are all so interconnected. But these stories, the evidence they leave behind, the deer bones in the river, that’s morally neutral. When we pretend that bodies don’t or shouldn’t have stories, and by we, I mean as a culture, I mean the systems of power that we live in, tell us that having stories in our body, having age, having wrinkles, having acne or scars or crow’s feet, whatever, all these things that aren’t considered beautiful, they are stories.

If you have worked out in the sun your whole life, if you’re a farm worker and you’ve worked in the sun your whole life, your skin is going to have different stories in it than mine is because I mostly work indoors and I mostly don’t work at hard labor. And neither one of those are morally… There’s no moral value in any of those, but they’re different stories.

I am not saying lightly that you should embrace the stories that are in your skin because not all of those are pleasant or fun stories, but they are still valuable because they are part of us and also they’re unavoidable. We all [inaudible] That river is going to have a soda can and thrown in it at some point to bring it back around.

Chavonne (she/her):

Yeah. I like the neutrality of that too, and not just the, “Love your body, love your tiger scars,” or whatever they sell, tiger scars, whatever they call it, blah, blah, blah, which is great if that’s what’s for you, but if it’s not, that’s also okay. That’s perfectly okay to be morally neutral about… For me, for my C-section scars and all… Anybody, any kind of surgery scars that people have had. It doesn’t even have to be scars, but that’s coming to mind for me as you’re talking about this client because that’s the most salient example I have according like this person has.

So yeah, absolutely. I mean, even my teeny tiny boys have [inaudible] and things have happened because they’ve been alive longer than one second. You get your blood drawn, dah, dah, dah, dah. That’s just a sign that you’ve lived and that’s completely neutral.

Jenn (she/they):

Just a sign that you lived. I left that as a summary. I was thinking of when you were talking about farm workers and other things that are usually mislabeled as unskilled labor. It’s a mislabeling. It’s not accurate. It’s not descriptive. It’s not in reality. All labor is skilled. All of it. Things we do for ourselves and our body, they take skill. They take being resourced, having the energy and the resources to be able to do something that if there isn’t an acknowledgement of life, continuing on aging, continuing on organs, age. Skin is an organ. It ages.

Body systems in general aging and then pretending like we all have to match the lab results of a 18 to 24-year-old that is the within normal limits of your standard average labs, and it’s usually white male too that we have to be compared to the “epitome” of our system. Whatever the ideal is that we’ve created as a society has been created. That skills have value, including embodiment as a skill to detect what’s happening inside of us. Where is that can inside of us? So being believed and validated when you seek help for something. We’re like, there’s a can here, right? Because I’m also going to just keep doing this analogy until we push it into the ground.

The sound of a can hitting the ground or hitting the water, I actually think it could be a really visceral analogy too, but really just describing how someone can say you don’t have a can in there, and you’re like, “I feel it. I touch it. It’s here. It’s blocking things.” Whatever is happening, and someone with power in that area, power over our embodiment, which doesn’t really feel like that’s a possible thing. It’s just an assumed thing that people with power over bodies think they have.

This morning, I went to a cardiologist visit. I was telling Chavonne earlier, and this is really making me think of that. I had this realization today in the appointment, this person is probably the most power in our medical system that I can think of because everyone is afraid of cardiovascular events. It’s the number one killer of people in the US and actually the world at this point, and so we’re trying to always prevent it.

So everyone points to this person. Everyone gives this person power, but I’ve had to fight back with this person and reestablish that this is about me and my body repeatedly and my experience. And so it’s like this human is throwing cans at me. I’m just seeing in this analogy, I’m dodging cans, I’m knocking them because I say, “No, thank you.” We talked about that last time. Remember what I said? I wouldn’t recommend my clients come here if you’re just going to constantly talk to them about weight loss, et cetera.

Absolutely. “How’s your diet, Jenn?” Well, I’m a dietician, so I think we can move on from this conversation. This sort of stuff. It’s just like cans, and I’m just thinking about since I was diagnosed with diabetes in 2021, I’ve been the most visualized in our medical system compared to the previous decades of my life in these three years. Three compared to 30 years or more. It’s a hard thing because people are trying to stop up my wetland with cans all the time. Sometimes in a given week, I see three different specialists. I have a period a couple months every year that I see everyone and I get visualized and all that stuff.

I even had to have a CT scan on my heart this year because some labs scared us. So I’m feeling really grateful because my CT scan, don’t worry about it at least for another 10 years. I’m grateful to have that information and I don’t like the cans being thrown at me. I end up with migraines after these appointments and other things because it’s so hard to be in there, and I am a relatively privileged person in our medical system. I’m still a white cishet woman. But I’ll never be listened to or believed like the ideal people in our system. And so it’s noticeable.

So I’m just noticing my cans and I’m thinking about as you add layers of intersectionality, and I just learned a new term recently, which I saved it so I could say it out loud. This other element of intersectionality that I’d never heard of before, which is about how we… It’s like a way in which if we just play with intersectionality and we assume that everyone is… Even a doctor who’s a person of color who’s BIPOC that they would somehow be better than another person, but they are in the same system.

They might still be an agent of this system in a way that’s still harmful even to people who look like them. Gosh, I wish I could remember this dang term. Oh, the matrix of domination.

Chavonne (she/her):

Oh my.

Jenn (she/they):

This is how intersectionality can be easily misunderstood as an issue of identities and not an issue that is systemic and oppressive as a system. The hood biologist, I’ll send this tweet to you, Chavonne, they acknowledged a set of readings that they read, and one of the books is called On Intersectionality by Patricia Hill-Collins who says, “We have to not just label things as intersectionality. I love these cans in this analogy because we’re like, “Oh, there’s just a bunch of cans. We might assume that they’re spread out over the entire wetland.”

But what we’re really talking about is that there’s a way for the wetland to clear itself. In the corner, there’s reeds over there that are constantly filtering water, or sorry, ecologists, environmentalists and biologists where I didn’t say something accurate. I’m just pretending that’s true. So if that’s true, I think it is, then what we’re really talking about is there’s so many cans filled with water buried between these reeds that they can’t even do their function anymore.

That’s really what intersectionality is. So I was just thinking about that, anticipating talking with you, Lindley today, trying to stay in my body against my medical PTSD in this situation and really trying to get this person to take their cans away before I left. That’s become my new focus. Why don’t you just get rid of all the cans you just threw me because I don’t want to have to get rid of them myself? I don’t want you to give people cans, right? Please help those reeds do their filtering. That would be awesome, right? You’re saying, “I’m worried about your reeds.” “Okay, let’s check on them. Why are you throwing cans in here?” It doesn’t make logical sense, and I actually really love this analogy because I didn’t know how to express this. I can’t wait to tell my therapist. I know how to express this, right? Medical PTSD for me is there’s so many cans I can’t filter with my reeds.

So I’m in love with this analogy now. It’s really meaningful to me. So here’s Jenn talking and saying what’s meaningful to them, but I really resonate with that. I just wanted you to know that. It’s always words is what I end up doing is like, “Here’s the words that tell you that this is meaningful for me, but I really want to think about it because this matrix of domination…” I sent this to myself just yesterday afternoon. I just heard about this. I’m like, “I need to go read this. I need to go…” Because I want to be able to think about how can those social determinants of illness, let’s just get rid of some of the cans. It’s very abolitionist minded. It’s very anti-capitalist. It’s very Jenn-minded. Oh, I just love it, so thank you. It feels like a gift.

Lindley (she/her):

Well, put that about the matrix of domination in the show notes for sure, because I want to pursue that and [inaudible] about that some more. But also [inaudible]

Jenn (she/they):

It’s so clear.

Lindley (she/her):

Jenn, as you were talking to… So many things coming up for me now. Have you ever played the game Fruit Ninja?

Jenn (she/they):

No.

Lindley (she/her):

Okay. It’s an older mobile game now. It was kind of in the era of the original Angry Birds and so on. But it’s a mobile game where you are “ninja”. I know. And you have your sort of finger or your hand is your sword or your weapon. And [inaudible] into the air on the screen and you slice through it with your finger.

Jenn (she/they):

I’ve seen the visual. I have never played.

Chavonne (she/her):

Same. Same visual.

Lindley (she/her):

Well, there’s also… I was somewhere ages ago, maybe a Dave & Buster’s where if you’re not familiar with Dave & Buster’s, it’s like Chuck E. Cheese for adults. They had a full size fruit ninja game that you could play, and it was a screen like an LED screen that was, I don’t know, two feet by four feet or some nonsense. It was the same as the mobile game, but you were doing it with your whole arm and it was so much fun. But Jenn, I just got this image of you slicing through the air, knocking aside these soda cans in a way that that was a very fun visual, but that’s exhausting.

Jenn (she/they):

It’s exhausting.

Lindley (she/her):

It’s exhausting.

Chavonne (she/her):

It is.

Jenn (she/they):

I actually had to catch my breath in the car on the way home today, which I have not been present. I’ve been working really hard. This is a hard thing. Therapy is a gift and a privilege, and I have been learning to have access to myself, so I noticed I had trouble breathing on the way home, and I just made me wonder how often have I had trouble breathing going to a doctor in my life? I bet it was a lot. I bet it really, really doesn’t compare to people who don’t get what they need inside of our system and don’t get what they need from their providers.

This was after getting what I needed and swatting all the cans away. I still had to catch my breath. Wow. Embodiment is exhausting. Just being embodied much less of someone-

Chavonne (she/her):

Just being embodied.

Jenn (she/they):

… throwing cans at your embodiment and threatening that embodiment. Wow.

Chavonne (she/her):

Absolutely.

Jenn (she/they):

That’s very affirming. Thank you.

Chavonne (she/her):

Absolutely. Thank you. I love this metaphor. I love this metaphor for sure. I use it all the time.

Jenn (she/they):

I wish I was a graphic illustrator so I could make a visual of this because it’s very powerful what’s happening in my head. I just don’t know how to make it go out into the world.

Chavonne (she/her):

You just draw sticks. That’s what my reeds look like in a circle.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah, mind sticks. I have an app that’s like I can talk and I go stick figure throwing can into wetlands and it’ll make a stick version of them.

Chavonne (she/her):

Love it. Love it.

Lindley (she/her):

As you listen to this episode that is your… I’m going to give you a homework assignment. What is your own wetland look like or body of water, whatever that looks like for you, what kinds of trash tend to go into it? Where do they get stuck? What kind of animals come to drink? What kind of… And now that sounds a little dirty. However you want to work it, but what’s your body of water look like and what’s the ecosystem that existed?

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah. I can’t remember what we said with Nikki Haggett, who we had in our very first season and who was going to come back for a deep dive with us this season. I can’t remember. We were talking something in the realm of art therapy about how visualizing. Oh gosh, I almost have the word for it. But anyway, there’s something from that episode. We’ll tag that episode, but this is so reminiscent of that like how valid that analogy picture is. That book in the Light of the Moon, which is a well-known, also problematic book, that it centers people in smaller bodies and implies that it’s harder to build analogy psychology, like nervous system connections if you’re in a larger body.

So that area is not so great. I still love the description at the beginning before we get to that problematic stuff. So I’ll just try to describe it here so you don’t have to go look, if you don’t want to. Just beware if you go towards that source. In the introduction, it’s talking about how analogy changes who we are as a person, our neuroplasticity, or how our nerves function and cognitive flexibility, how we utilize those as logical, consciously aware people and how analogies change that interaction with ourself. It’s also reminding me that too.

Chavonne (she/her):

Yeah, absolutely.

Jenn (she/they):

This analogy can go far.

Chavonne (she/her):

Forever.

Jenn (she/they):

It’s a cool analogy. I’m glad we’re revisiting it because it stuck with me when we first talked about it and now it’s like a whole garden waiting to bloom into something. So I just appreciate that.

Chavonne (she/her):

Absolutely. I’d love to-

Lindley (she/her):

Go ahead, Chavonne. Actually, I think you were going to [inaudible].

Chavonne (she/her):

Because I was going to pivot to the next one. I was going to pivot to the next one. Go ahead.

Lindley (she/her):

All right. Well, just bodies of wetlands. You could just, I think just explore this forever because of the connection of our human bodies to our ecosystems and also the way that wetlands. This whole time I’ve been intentionally using the word wetland because think about the other words for very similar environments and how they are not pretty words, swamp, marsh.

Chavonne (she/her):

Makes sense.

Jenn (she/they):

Morass, one of my favorite words. An older word for swamp.

Lindley (she/her):

Yeah, say it again because I think I crosstalked on you.

Jenn (she/they):

Morass, which I call more ass a joke. It’s just miss the word E. I’m like, “Oh, great. More ass. My life has gotten swamped.

Chavonne (she/her):

It also makes sense because you’re swamped. [inaudible]

Jenn (she/they):

I’ll fall on my ass in a swamp. I don’t have the balance.

Lindley (she/her):

Well, and they are specialized environments. They are specialized for survival. Not only do they serve an essential purpose in their larger environments, but they have beauty of their own. And so I think this does come really neatly, once again back to our human bodies because those swamps, those marshes, those wetlands, they bloom. They have all kinds of cool textures. I’m not pausing because I am searching for nice things to say about swamps. I’m pausing because there are so many cool things. I’m trying to pick what’s next, but think about the lichen, the girl in the trees. What a cool texture that is.

Even if that tree is dead and stuck in the mud, it is still a vital part of what’s going on there. Reeds bloom. They have little flowers. Once again, environmentalists. Please forgive us for the [inaudible] because they’re probably not correct. But skunk cabbage, skunk cabbage grows in swampy areas and it has this beautiful yellow bloom in the spring.

And so not only is that body of water serving a vital purpose, it is beautiful as well. I also have to issue a correction, that that wetland area on I-5 is between Tacoma and Olympia. Seattle and Tacoma. If you were looking for it on the map or if you’re like, “That’s not right,” yeah, I just realized it’s between Tacoma and Olympia. Anyhow, that wetland area, it’s different from Mount Rainier. And Mount Rainier gets all the glory, but that goofy little wetland area below I-5 is just chugging along doing its quiet work existing, and it is just as valuable as Mount Rainier. It’s just that nobody gets excited when they see the wetland and they get excited when the mountain is out because the clouds are gone.

Jenn (she/they):

Oh, there’s stuff about the journey on the way there. The fact that it’s towards Olympia, which is famous for roses. I’m just thinking there’s so many cool amazing things here. Wow.

Lindley (she/her):

Think about maybe your body is the wetland and it’s maybe is not Mount Rainier. And Rainier is over here getting all the glory for being the picturesque ideal. That also has a ton of metaphor attached, and also has a ton of, not only as a mountain peak, but as a volcano. And so lots of other stories and analogy attached there, most of which is much more glamorous than that goofy little wetland on the interstate.

So maybe the wetland on the interstate. But the only thing that makes your body less valuable is the fact that everybody is over here glorifying Mount Rainier. It doesn’t actually make you less valuable. It doesn’t make the wetland less valuable. No matter whether people call you a swamp or not there.

Chavonne (she/her):

I just read the Orchid Thief for the first time a few weeks ago, and that made me… I’ve been thinking about wetlands a lot in the book. The author talks about trudging through the wetlands in Florida to get these slightly, ugly, slightly gorgeous orchids that can just grow on anything. You can glue it to a tree and it’s going to grow. I’m really fascinated how you have to go through this interval darkness in some points to get to things like that, that will just grow no matter what. And things are just so growing so heavily and so quickly. It’s just really cool, so I’ve been thinking about wetlands a lot. I read that for the first time a few weeks ago.

Jenn (she/they):

I’m writing this down for our conclusion episode of the season so we can reflect on the pond. I love this.

Chavonne (she/her):

Love it. Perfect.

Lindley (she/her):

I’ll be so excited to hear what else has come up for you two between now and the season closer to you.

[41:47]

Chavonne (she/her):

Me too. Me too. Lindley, you are such a balm and beacon of space holding for fat liberation. We are constantly inspired by you. How was it going in the very active Body Liberation Blanket Fort on Discord through your Patreon? What is shifting within you during this project, and was it the plan? Or did it surprise you? More specifically, what are you releasing and what are you letting in?

Lindley (she/her):

So first off-

Chavonne (she/her):

That’s a good one.

Lindley (she/her):

First off, thank you. I’m always a little uncomfortable with compliments, and so I’m squirming a little right here. So this is good practice in actually appreciating.

Chavonne (she/her):

It really is a wonderful space. I’m in there all the time. Wonderful space.

Lindley (she/her):

Yeah, it is. It started on a whim. So all my stories, this is a long one, but the Patreon that I run, which now essentially has the same name as the Discord. It’s all sort of The Body Liberation Blanket Fort now. And some people who are supporters of the Patreon are in the Discord, and some aren’t. Either way is of course totally fine. But I started the Patreon ages ago because at the time, I didn’t have a way on my website, the technology of my website to do stock photo credits.

There was no way to subscribe and get a certain number of credits every month. And so I jury-rigged it for years by having this Patreon where you could subscribe to the Patreon. And then every month you would get a coupon code for the value of whatever your payment was. So it was a way for people to get credits without having infrastructure that I just didn’t have at the time. But then eventually people wanted to subscribe to just support the work. And so I opened it up to start having more rewards. Then when the pandemic started, I went through a phase where I was like, “Well, maybe I’ll just be a writer. And so maybe I’ll just do the Patreon and write pieces specifically for that.”

And ended up moving back away from that as I’m still being very COVID cautious, but I do accept photography clients again now. So the point is that that space has grown and shifted over time. But during all this, I added the blanket for it itself, the Discord server, because for a couple of reasons. One was I felt like I needed an additional reward for the Patreon. One reason was that a long time ago, I used to run a Facebook group and I hated it.

I hated it because it was one of those free groups that you join, and then whoever runs it will market into the group. But when you are running a group that is specifically from marginalized people, it’s different from running a group that is based in mainstream culture. And so the folks who came in there were mostly really great. But they also had a higher support need in general than just like you said, your standard group for, I don’t know, house plans, which I’m in several of and I love. But the point is that people needed more emotional labor, which made complete sense.

But I was doing it for free. It was exhausting. And then I just ended up dreading going in there every day because it felt like a chore. So the point is that ever since, so I had shut that down, but ever since I wanted a space that I could hang out in that not only was good for the people in it, but was good for me. And so I said, “Okay, if I’m going to do this, it’s going to be a way that works with my brain.”

I’m an old school nerd. I was on IRC back in the day, and that kind of real time chat, if you haven’t been in Discord, but you’ve used Slack, it’s essentially just like Slack. If you haven’t used either one, it’s very different from something like Facebook or email because there are different channels that are topical, and it’s real-time chat. So whoever is typing types and hits enter, and it goes in and it scrolls up as people chat, which is really cool because it can be 24/7. And so our European folks tend to be there at different times than our American folks and our North American folks.

But it means there’s always somebody around, which is really great. The point is that I said, “Okay. This is what works for my brain,” which means that I’m willing to actually hang out there and it’s not going to work for everybody else. And that’s okay. We’ll see how it is. I’ve always had this, “I’m going to build things in a way that works with my brain, and either people will show up or they won’t.” Sometimes people do and sometimes people don’t because the way my brain works is so particular that sometimes what I want to do doesn’t resonate with what other people need.

Jenn (she/they):

Like a podcast. Here’s who we are. Come if you like.

Lindley (she/her):

Yeah, exactly. So I didn’t know if the Discord was going to be a thing or not. I was also assuming when I set it up that if people did come in and stay, that what they would be there for was… Because I’ve been posting journaling prompts for a very long time on social media. I’ve been posting things about thin privilege and these deep topics. And so I assumed… You know what happens when you assume, but I assumed that what people would be there for was a more private place to have hard conversations and to process and to do the journaling and so on.

What I found over time was that people wanted a space that was a safer space. I don’t ever claim that it’s a safe space because I mess up and everybody else messes up because we’re humans. Sometimes we’re the one chucked in soda cans, even if we don’t mean to come back to our wetland. So I don’t promise that it’s a safe space, but it is a safer space. And because there’s a channel that just has the rules, you can go look at them many times, and people are heavily encouraged to do that before they participate in the fort itself. But because the boundaries are so clearly expressed and because you have to pay to be there, and if there is someone who… So it’s a sliding scale.

It starts at a dollar us per month. So that’s where the Patreon starts because the Patreon and the Discord are linked and it automatically gives you access, which is great because I don’t have to manage access. So when you sign up for Patreon, it just automatically gives you access to the Discord. But I’ve said too many things in a row and I’ve lost my train of thought. So it turned out that what people were actually there for was to hang out.

People want to talk about TV shows and video games and share memes and shoot the breeze. Yes, we do some deeper work in there, but mostly people just want to have a community space where they can just be themselves. And there’s lots of weirdos. I’m the head weirdo. I’m in there weird enough like every day. And so people also feel free to be weird. We have tons of neurodivergent folks, tons of queer folks.

Chavonne (she/her):

Beautiful.

Lindley (she/her):

We have a couple folks with DID, which used to be known as multiple personalities that is now dissociative identity disorder who have… And some of these folks are experimenting with being open to anyone about that. And some folks are, they’re good to go. But we have folks in there who use a specialized login for Discord that lets them speak with whichever part of them is speaking at that moment Instead of everything having to be under one name. The point is that we have lots and lots, and lots of folks and lots of super fat folks who are there to hang out as themselves and be accepted.

And the community that has formed, they just blow me away. They’re so cool. When new people come in, they’re encouraged to fill out a profile. Because when you’re talking to a bunch of names on a screen, it gets really hard to keep up with who’s who. And so I encourage them to fill out a camper’s profile because everything is camping themed because the blanket fort is a tent in the logo.

Chavonne (she/her):

Makes sense.

Lindley (she/her):

It’s all very cute, but you’re encouraged to fill out a profile and you only share as much as you’re comfortable with. You don’t have to put your real photo. You do you. But that way people can go and say, “Oh, what was this person interested in? What were their pronouns? Who is this person I’m talking to?” And people have formed connections. People make friends. People find people to hang out with. And it is heavily Pacific Northwest centered because so many of these are folks that I have known or met locally, but just because that’s where I’m at geographically. But like I said, we have people across North America and Europe hoping eventually to get folks worldwide.

It has just become this absolutely magical space because the people who hang out apparently find so much value in it that they just… They’re just this super friendly and connected bunch and it has just taken on a life outside of itself. And something about… If you have ever run a free thing and run a paid thing, something about even throwing a dollar in the pot once a month means that people are so much more invested and so much more polite honestly. And people are more likely to actually take advantage of it if you have some investment, no matter how slight.

And also that helps support me. I mean, it literally helps pay my bills, but also I am in there nurturing every single day. This isn’t like a forum where I show up once a week to moderate things that have been reported. It has taken a ton of nurturing to get it to this point, which has been a joy to do. Don’t get me wrong. I love going in there and hanging out because it works with my brain. And because the people are so cool. But it does… I’m in there, again, wording.

Jenn (she/they):

[inaudible]

Lindley (she/her):

You’re at the point now where I can’t follow every conversation in every channel every day because [inaudible] which is great because if there’s a problem, somebody will tag me or message me to pull me in. So I’m not worried about it. But also the fact that people are having conversations that I’m not leading means that it is taking on a life of its own, which is where it needs to be because it’s not the Lindley show. Ultimately, I mean, it kind of is because it’s my space, but just because it’s my living room doesn’t mean I don’t want side conversations. It’s a party, not a lecture.

Chavonne (she/her):

I love that. I love that. Oh, that sounds like such a regenerative space, such a space to be held in and to hold. That sounds absolutely gorgeous.

Lindley (she/her):

And we were talking earlier… Now, let’s go back to the wetland. We were talking earlier about community and the wetland and having these soda cans stuck in the reeds so much that we can’t filter water. I think Jenn was saying that earlier, and people in there are so good about… The thing is that everyone in there, we are all marginalized in at least one way, which almost everyone has some marginalization, but many of the people in there are highly marginalized.

What that means is that there’s going to be days when, Jane… I’m just making up a name, when Jane doesn’t have the energy to give a lot of emotional labor to everyone else who is in need that day because they need help picking out some cans or at least, analogy failing me because they need support. And so maybe they’ll go into… We have a gripes channel, and so they’ll go into the gripes channel and they’ll talk about something.

And it might be, “I spilled my coffee on my shoes on the way to work.” Or it might be something really traumatic. And maybe it’s a can. Maybe it’s like a beer keg. It might be something big. But then when they have the energy, another day, they’re going in there and helping hold somebody else’s hand. And that reciprocity is part of what makes it go. And is part of what makes it a joy, because if you have a space where no one ever has… And again, this is morally neutral, but when no one can give support because everyone is too far in it to be able to give support, or you only have a couple of people who ever give support, those spaces are very hard to maintain in spaces.

But this is a space where, honestly, I’m just so proud of everybody because people really do, and this is just because people are awesome. This is not something that I have deliberately told them they have to do or anything. But people do. They come back in and they support each other when they can. So does it mean that everyone is fully supported at every moment? No. And that’s because it’s a community space and not… I can’t think of a space where everyone is supported at every moment. But it’s not like a therapy support group. It’s not a care-taking space necessarily.

But from my perspective, it feels like there’s always somebody listening when somebody else speaks. Even if they’re just emoji reacting. Generally, people aren’t coming in and just talking into the void.

Jenn (she/they):

That’s me. I’m an emoji reaction. I’m reading everything. I haven’t written a word. I’m just here.

Lindley (she/her):

Which is awesome because lurkers, I say this as a dedicated lurker in other spaces, lurkers also play a really valuable role in communities. It’s funny you had asked, what are you letting in and what are you releasing?

Chavonne (she/her):

I was like, “What did I ask?”

Lindley (she/her):

Anyway, I had to think about it for a minute. And this is such a good question to you, because like I said, it’s not the Lindley show. But at the same time, I cannot remember if I have mentioned this before, I probably have, but I live with an anxiety disorder. I’m not an autistic person with an anxiety disorder who is super organized and super on top of things, and generally tries to be super responsive to people. And specifically the Blanket Fort has forced me in ways that are really good for me to let go of the expectation that I can be everything a 200 plus person community needs at all times both from the standpoint of starting to acknowledge that I can’t keep up with every channel every single day.

I had just talked about, “Oh, I can’t do that, and that’s okay.” But that’s something I had to work towards on my own because I was wearing myself out emotionally trying to be part of every conversation every day. Like that’s not reasonable. But I had to get to a point where I accepted that that wasn’t reasonable to expect of myself and allow in that nobody expected of me just allow in the realities of other people’s expectations as opposed to what anxiety tells me is their expectation.

But also, I have a very part-time assistant who helps me in various areas of my business. His name is Silas. He’s a trans guy. He’s super awesome. Hey, Silas, love you. Silas. And now I’m going to have to make sure you listen to this so you can hear it. But at any rate, Silas has been helping me in various areas. But one of the things that Silas is now doing for me is running movie nights because I have a hard time audio processing.

So watching movies or TV shows is very difficult for me and it’s very stressful. It’s work. And so I’m also not a big podcast listener, but I will read a transcript all day, which is why I’m so grateful that y’all produce good transcripts.

Jenn (she/they):

That’s important to us so thank you.

Lindley (she/her):

Silas like doing movie nights. And so Silas is running the movie nights. And then more recently what I’ve started doing is rather than try to hold constant events, because I do run events consistently for the fort membership. Like I said, we do the movie nights. We do some pretty vulnerable discussion groups these days. Our last one was on fat in healthcare, or what it’s like to exist as a fat person trying to get healthcare.

We do crafty hangouts and we do all these things, but it’s also not on me to do every single one of them. And that was another thing that I had to both release and allow help in. So now I’m starting to bring in a speaker every month or someone to run an activity. I have a voice teacher who’s coming in to run a karaoke night later in the year.

Chavonne (she/her):

Awesome.

Lindley (she/her):

It’s specifically going to be a bad karaoke night because people are [inaudible].

Chavonne (she/her):

Perfect.

Lindley (she/her):

So the expectation is you’re going to be bad at it, and that’s okay. I just had Ragen Chastain in to talk about fat health myths and it was spectacular.

Jenn (she/they):

Agreed.

Lindley (she/her):

So just allowing it to take its own shape and allowing it to be a community driven space and thinking of myself as the caretaker as opposed to the mom has been really cool, but also has had to be a deliberate practice of both letting go of perfectionism and also letting in assistance and letting in other people’s voices.

Jenn (she/they):

Wow.

Chavonne (she/her):

That’s awesome.

Jenn (she/they):

Letting in assistance and other people’s voices, that really strikes something.

Chavonne (she/her):

I love the letting in assistance. It’s nice to work on all that time. Delegation is hardest thing for me.

Lindley (she/her):

One of the things that people have really been interested in is a D&D group in the forum, and we have voice and video capabilities, but at the same time, we were having… Lots of people wanted to participate. Nobody wanted to run it. And in the back of my head I was like, “I really, really… Am I capable?” Yes. Does it sound like fun to DM a D&D group? No.

Jenn (she/they):

I’m a participant.

Lindley (she/her):

I’d rather play a video game. I’ve done D&D before a long time ago. I was a 3.5 player if that means anything to anybody. But I haven’t played since. So basically I haven’t played since college. It’s something that I want to happen because so many people have indicated interest. And once again, it’s so cool that so many people have indicated interest because once again, I’m going to brag on the population there because a lot of the people who have indicated interest are clearly intimidated by the thought of learning to do it. And they were willing to say, “But I still want to do it,” which means it’s a safe enough space for people who wouldn’t normally speak up to speak up.

Jenn (she/they):

Generative. My favorite kind of space.

Lindley (she/her):

Which means that by God, we’re going to make it happen. So I went to Silas who had said that they had DM’ed before. And I said, “Silas, how do you feel about DM’ing?” And he said, “Well, I’m happy to do it. It sounds fun, but I just don’t really have the space right now.” I said, “Okay. How about we make that part of your weekly hours?” And that changed it because, again, supporting the support, the community support, because the pay in community is what allows me to pay Silas to be a freaking DM.

And so sometimes soon we’re going to start that D&D group because Silas is now doing the background work of getting the materials together and things. And so we’re going to make that happen as a community. It really is generative because it is generating. The membership generates the income to allow things, good things to come to the membership.

Jenn (she/they):

This is my-

Chavonne (she/her):

Generated for the group.

Jenn (she/they):

Exactly. This is reminding me, I will try to find this, Chavonne, but there is a parent teaching their child how to play D&D and I have played it. I played it many times over the last 20 years, but never consistently. And the way that they’re teaching a child to do it is reminding me how much fun it is and how interesting it is, and also how it doesn’t have to be this big stay up all night, prepare to be the DM have everything arranged in advance. You’re allowed to do spot stuff spontaneously, and like an improv fashion or whatever. It’s part of the fun. But because when you interact with a kid, kids are all improv. “Yes. And let’s do it.” Right?

Chavonne (she/her):

Yeah.

Jenn (she/they):

There’s such an improv level of things in the childlike parts of ourselves and little children. That just sounds really cool. I’ve had my say on that.

Chavonne (she/her):

Okay. I’d love to know more about that. That sounds fun.

Jenn (she/they):

I’ll make a note.

Chavonne (she/her):

Maybe see which kid would be like, “It’d just be fun. It would be fun.”

Lindley (she/her):

Well, and I think part of what is intimidating about D&D is that that expectation that it’s going to be an all-nighter with Mountain Dew and most of the… With our population, it’s heavily neuro divergent, heavily chronically ill. Lots of busy adults. Nobody wants to do all-nighters of Mountain Dew, including me or Silas. And so Silas is looking at one shots that are like two hours max.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah, once.

Lindley (she/her):

You show up, it’s easy. It’s non-intimidating. You don’t have to spend four hours working on a backstory and a character. You just pick a pre-made one.

Jenn (she/they):

I love it.

Lindley (she/her):

And then if a smaller group wants to start doing an ongoing thing, cool. Like I said, “We’ve got voice and video. Pick a channel and go for it.”

Chavonne (she/her):

That’s awesome. That’s really fun.

Jenn (she/they):

And I think that’s such a great expression of what this group is… I wrote quite a few things as I’m just going to say a couple little catch-phrases I wrote as you were talking about that because I was like, “Ooh, mutual support space.” You really highlighted how it needs to work for you and your brain. I actually honestly hadn’t thought about that, and I’m considering group work, and so I was like, “Oh, it should work for me too.” I don’t want it to go into my trauma response. It’s very normal, very human moods of procrastination, hesitation, avoidance, resistance. Why do we have to set ourselves up for that, right? Why does it have to be capitalistic in that way?”

I just really liked the departure from that usual sort of pattern. Absolutely. Magical space was my favorite thing. You said about the group. When you said it’s a party not a lecture, I was like, “Oh my gosh, this is an embodiment party.” Because it’s not just talking about fatness, it’s existing as people with multiple disabilities, chronic illnesses, multiple neurodivergences, multiple… Because we’re multiplicative. We’re people, and so that’s not just it.

So a place that’s only about reflecting that isn’t even the full humanity. So I think what I was hearing you say, and you’ll have to correct me if this is wrong, Lindley, but you get to be more of a person in there than say that Facebook space or other spaces. I just thought that was incredible. Those are the little catchphrases I wrote because I just thought, “Okay, this is such… It’s a really great way of describing the space to people who haven’t been in there. I agree.” Those feelings in that space, that really is how it feels.

Lindley (she/her):

And if you are going to lead, and this is something that I… Something that I have learned very painfully. I wasn’t born knowing this either, but if you were going to be a lead or a host or whatever you want to call it. You don’t have to think of yourself as being a leader or you’re going to be the expert in the room or you’re going to… I don’t know. Like I said, it is so easy for us to think, “Well, I’m not an expert. Oh, well, I’m not a leader.”

But even if you’re hosting a party, “Do you want to do that in a space that’s comfortable for you? I mean, it doesn’t matter if you want to.” Eventually you have to because if you try to, I don’t know, drag your wetland out onto the beach every week, how well is that going to work for you over time? Even if what everybody wants is to have a party with the wetland on the beach every week, you can only drag that with [inaudible] Again, this analogy is dead, but if you drag that wetland out to the beach every week-

Jenn (she/they):

It’s just sucking you up.

Lindley (she/her):

Eventually, it’s going to get so salty that your reeds stop functioning and you cannot filter, and you will not be able to go to the beach because your reeds are going to be like, “Hell no. You have a migraine or whatever.” So the point is that if you’re going to lead in any capacity or host, doing it in a way that works for your body and brain even if that does not work for everyone else, is going to lead to, no pun intended to more sustainable community in the long term.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah. I was thinking about that word a lot while you were talking, “Wow, this sounds really sustainable because it gets to flow and fluctuate and be existing and all of that.” It’s just really amazing.

Lindley (she/her):

And there are people… Watching people engage with it in ways that work for them is really cool too. There are people who will come in for a week and be, “Super, super engaged.” And then they go away for six months and then when they need that space or they want that space, they come back in and they’re super engaged. There are people who are there every day. There are people who have taken on leadership roles or mover and shaker roles in the community and then have stepped back for a while, and then eventually they’ll pop up again.

And that’s awesome because all of that… Not only does that, again, make it more sustainable for me because as people feel uncomfortable enough to do their own moving and shaking, it’s movement that I’m not having to create, but it also… I don’t know, it feels way better. Again, it feels more like a party and less like a lecture. There we go.

Chavonne (she/her):

I love that. I love that.

[1:12:03]

Jenn (she/they):

Continuing with this really large context, I can hear our pond and wetlands analogy in this too. Some things that we’ve talked about in the past, and I also notice you highlight a lot, Lindley, beauty standards, purity standards, financial standards, enabled-access standards. In other words, the opposite of disability and body size standards are all part of a larger disability or transparently eugenics standard. In other words, we have these ideals and standards that make words, these things harder on people. How does disability as a framework feel related to embodiment conversations for you?

Lindley (she/her):

So this is an area where I’m really stretching and exploring and hopefully growing right now. Fatness and disability particularly are a really complex conversation. I am going to talk more about it in a second, but this is out of my lane. I’m a beginner here, but I’ve been fascinated reading these conversations about is fatness a disability? And as you may know, there’s a couple different models of disability. There’s the medical model which says that you are disabled because you have a condition that makes you so, and then the social model, which says that you are disabled because the world is not built to accommodate your particular needs.

I tend towards the social model. I can see value in both. Again, I am a beginner in this space. Do not me look for people who are talking about it. But fatness in this context is so fascinating because five years ago, I would’ve said, “Well, of course fatness isn’t a disability,” but if you look at the social model… Because fatness is not a disease, but if you look at the social model of disability, if I cannot participate in public life because of my fatness doesn’t make me disabled.

I don’t know that I’m mad about the answer being yes. That said, “I’m trying to listen more than I talk here right now because I know I’m repeating myself, but I’m a beginner in this space. This is out of my lane and I’m trying really hard to listen to particularly super fat disability activists.” And their names have all vanished off the top of my head because of course they have. But we’ll put together a few places to start for you in the show notes.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah.

Chavonne (she/her):

I’ve lost every name in the last two seconds as well.

Jenn (she/they):

I made a note to think of them in not this moment, but before we go.

Lindley (she/her):

So please check the show notes because that’s a really, really important area to be listening for all of us right now.

Jenn (she/they):

And that’s a great point, right? Super fat and [inaudible] fat. There’s even the term death fat. So trigger warning for that word because that could be a triggering phrase. We’ve put the spectrum before. We’ll put that link again. In other words, people who have lived experience of that is what we’re pointing you to versus someone who doesn’t have that lived experience giving an opinion on someone else’s. So that’s the names we can’t remember right now. So noted to all of us.

Chavonne (she/her):

My first potty break, I will remember it. I’ll be like, “Oh, that’s right.”

Jenn (she/they):

Or the second we hang up or 2:00 AM tonight. [inaudible]

Chavonne (she/her):

Correct. Yeah, absolutely. I will definitely link that though for sure. And I think that makes sense because I’m so much of a beginner myself, and I just want to learn, hold space for those who know… who are many people know much more than I do, and also people who live in more marginalized bodies. I live in a body that is not one of those categories. I definitely have some disadvantages in terms of existing in the society, but I want to make sure that the people who really deserve the voice are heard too. So I’m trying to be quiet and learn too.

Jenn (she/they):

Same. I just feel very aligned on that, yes.

Chavonne (she/her):

Yes. Absolutely.

Jenn (she/they):

Listening humbly and trying to learn and a lot of unlearning, I think is my experience so far. So still doing that.

Chavonne (she/her):

Absolutely.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah. For you, Lindley, would you like to come back and have a conversation about the Thin Privilege Series in a further episode? And I’m thinking of that because first of all, there’s many, many, many examples. You’ve pulled the community, including the Discord, and there’s a lot of… And there’s lived experience libraries that talk about this. I’m thinking of the Project FLARE from NAAFA. There’s so many adjacent things that we could talk about and point people to even if it was a shorter little recording where we just talk… And for us at least an hour, hour and a half to be the shorter version.

I wonder if that feels like a better space for that, so you don’t have to feel rushed in these 10 minutes. What do you think? Because I’m really open.

Chavonne (she/her):

Same.

Jenn (she/they):

I genuinely want to hear more about it. Every time one pops up, it really makes me think, and so I would love for there to be more space. So that’s what my instincts say, but I want to check in with both of you. It’s our conversation. It’s our space, so we can do whatever we want.

Lindley (she/her):

Yeah. I’m happy to, as long as y’all will let me. I mean…

Chavonne (she/her):

I’m super down. I think it’s great, and I really love the conversations that we have, and I feel like… Like you said at the beginning, Lindley, I feel like we could just talk forever and ever and just keep creating a metaphor that has been beaten. I love it. I love it.

Lindley (she/her):

I’m glad we’re still recording. Okay. So, A, that sounds like a great plan, if that works for y’all.

Jenn (she/they):

It works.

Lindley (she/her):

I just don’t want to take up your whole season, but if you’re going to let me, I’m going to do it. I mean…

Jenn (she/they):

You’re so interconnected, Lindley, and with so many resources, you really genuinely give this access to resources and further thought. I’m just thrilled to get to listen to it. I mean, my note-taking is out of control today.

Chavonne (she/her):

In the best way. I forgot my notebook at home and it’s just like [inaudible] writing in the corners now. Like how small can I make my handwriting?

Lindley (she/her):

Amazing. But also, I’m glad that we’re still recording because I’m going to say this, and I want both of you to, I don’t know, make it your ringtone or something. So you’re forced to hear it occasionally, but the thing is that you two are creating the space that pulls that out of people, and I find that there are other activists that I do really connect with who… No, of course, I’m not going to say it in a short way where you can just have a clip of it.

Chavonne (she/her):

A five-minute ringtone. It’s fine. It’s fine.

Lindley (she/her):

I find that there are activists that I gel with in ways that push me forward and these conversations… And y’all are absolutely in that category, and these conversations like this drive us forward, and hopefully they drive our listeners forward too. But your two personalities are what are creating that space that allows people to both talk fluently about what they do and believe and their own thought work. But moves those things forward too. Like this analogy about the wetland. I mean, I’m laughing about it because-

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah, but it’s so good.

Lindley (she/her):

Because I love meat analogy.

Chavonne (she/her):

It’s so good. I love them.

Lindley (she/her):

That was my analogy forever. But that and the Fruit Ninja thing with the soda cans. Also until we started talking about it, it was just like this little seed of an analogy, and now it’s informing. I think we could easily talk for another three hours just about this wetland thing. It’s not just because I’m long-winded, although that is also true. But because y’all are creating… Like I said, it’s the living room where we can… It’s a miniature version of the Blanket Fort where people are… People can yes and.

Jenn (she/they):

Yes, yes, yes. Improv is a huge theme in my mind today too, that yes and. Thank you for that. I’m also uncomfortable with compliments.

Chavonne (she/her):

That means so much.

Jenn (she/they):

I’m just telling myself to take this one in because that means a lot to me that you said that. You’ve been in here with us a lot, and it’s very different now, I feel than when we first started talking two seasons ago. And so for you to say that now tells me that the ways in which we are being intentional are noticeable, and that’s actually all I could ask for.

Chavonne (she/her):

Truly helps.

Jenn (she/they):

That means a lot. It’s very intentional on our part. We talk about it all the time. We process this. This is why we do the ins and outs before the season at the end. That’s what we’re really trying to do is give space for that, so I love that. Thank you.

Lindley (she/her):

Good. It’s good.

Jenn (she/they):

Yay. Third conversation. [inaudible].

Chavonne (she/her):

Amazing.

Lindley (she/her):

As long as you’ll let me.

Chavonne (she/her):

I know. I’m like, “Let’s do it again.” Let’s do it again.

Jenn (she/they):

Well, why don’t we close ourselves out and then maybe we’ll schedule it. How about that?

Chavonne (she/her):

I love it.

Lindley (she/her):

Yay. Thank you so much.

Jenn (she/they):

Thank you.

Lindley (she/her):

We appreciate it.

Chavonne (she/her):

Love you always.

Jenn (she/they):

Love you. Thank you. See y’all next time.

Lindley (she/her):

Yay. See you soon.

Chavonne: Thank you for listening to Season 4 of the Embodiment for the Rest of Us podcast. Episodes will be published the first Thursday of every month-ish (in case we need some wiggle room) wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also find all podcast content (including the transcript and show notes) at our website, EmbodimentForTheRestOfUs.com.

Jenn: And follow us on social media, on both Twitter @EmbodimentUs and on Instagram @EmbodimentForTheRestOfUs. We look forward to continuing this evolving and expanding conversation in our next episode.