Season 4 Episode 8 Lindley Ashline | Embodiment for the Rest of Us

Jenn: Welcome to our 4th season of the Embodiment for the Rest of Us podcast, a series exploring topics and intersections that exist in fat, queer, and disability liberation (and beyond!!)! You can consider this an anti-oppressive and generative space full of repair and intention.

Chavonne: In this podcast, we interview those with lived experience and professionals alike to learn how they are affecting radical change and how we can all make this world a safer and more welcoming place for all humans who are historically and currently marginalized and should be centered, listened to, and supported.

Jenn: Captions and content warnings are provided in the show notes for each episode, including specific time stamps, so that you can skip triggering content any time that feels supportive to you! This podcast is a representation of our co-host and guest experiences and may not be reflective of yours. These conversations are not medical advice, and are not a substitute for mental health or nutrition support.

Chavonne: In addition, the conversations held here are not exhaustive in their scope or levels of inquiry. These topics, these perspectives are not complete and are always in process. These are just highlights! Just like posts on social media, individual articles, or any other podcast – this is just a snapshot of the full picture.

Jenn: We are always interested in any feedback on this process, especially if you feel something needs to be addressed. We invite you to email us at Listener@EmbodimentForTheRestOfUs.com with any comments, requests, or concerns.

[1:44]

(C): Hello from Season 4 Episode 8 of the Embodiment for the Rest of Us podcast. In today’s episode, we have the second part of our deep dive conversation with Lindley Ashline (she/her).

(J): Lindley Ashline creates photographs that celebrate the unique beauty of bodies that fall outside conventional “beauty” standards. She fights weight stigma by giving plus-size people a safe place to explore how their bodies look on camera and by increasing the representation of big bodies in photography, advertising, fine art and the world at large.

(C): Lindley is also the creator of Body Liberation Stock (body-positive stock images for commercial use) and the Body Love Shop (a curated resource for body-friendly products and artwork). Find Lindley’s work and get her free weekly Body Liberation Guide at Bit.Ly/BodyLiberationGuide.

(J): Lindley can be found online at:

Their Website: BodyLiberationPhotos.com

Instagram: @BodyLiberationWithLindley

Facebook: BodyLiberationPhotos

Bluesky: @Lindley.Bsky.Social

(C): Wherever and however you are listening to this today, you are in for another incredible conversation. We are so glad you’re here!

[3:03]

Jenn (she/they):

Hi, there. We’re back for the third and final part of our deep dive with Lindley Ashline, she/her, who is joining us from the area just outside of Seattle. We still can’t get enough of you, we were just talking about that right before we started to record. How are you today, and how have you been since we last recorded in, I don’t remember when, June? May?

Lindley (she/her):

Well, as we record, it is shortly after the US federal elections, and we’re here in November 2024. And we were just talking about how we’re all in the thick of it right now so it actually feels really good to sort of rejoin this really amazing space that the two of you hold and-

Jenn (she/they):

Thank you, friend.

Chavonne:

Thank you.

Jenn (she/they):

Get back for a little bit to the things that I would rather be talking about and the things that I would rather be fighting for and sort of get out of the thick of the rest of the world for a few minutes.

Feel that

Chavonne:

That hits very hard.

Jenn (she/they):

And we were originally going to record on election day itself, and technology decided that our messages would miss each other and we wouldn’t have links, and then things would start coming in later.

Chavonne:

Thank goodness, thank goodness it didn’t work out, yeah.

Jenn (she/they):

Maybe that was a good thing that happened. Chavonne and I just took naps that day. So that’s what we did with that time when it turned out that way. So I’m glad we’re here this week and talking.

Chavonne:

Which was good because I was up until 3:00 in the morning watching the results because I have no self-control. Oh no, I’m fine, sorry.

Jenn (she/they):

I let myself go to sleep and I woke up around 3:00 AM and I was like, “Okay, I’m pretty sure I’m going to start looking right now.”

Chavonne:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lindley (she/her):

And I went to sleep at my normal time sure that it would as in at least one election cycle previous, that it would take days and days to figure out who was the winner and there was no point in being fussed about it. And then I woke up to the results. So three different experiences.

Chavonne:

Very different experiences. Wow, that’s interesting. That’s really interesting.

Jenn (she/they):

And we contain multitudes. Chavonne and I were texting this morning. I’m like, “Well, on the surface I’m feeling kind of light and free today, but all the rage and all the despair is still right here.” It’s so close, yeah.

Lindley (she/her):

Well, and I had a master class that I did this past weekend with Bri Campos who is one of the people I admire most in the world. So every time we’re together, we just fangirl at each other. It’s great.

Chavonne:

The way we do you, Lindley.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah, exactly.

Lindley (she/her):

It’s so cool to have these spaces where we can really build each other up.

Jenn (she/they):

Well said.

Lindley (she/her):

But it’s been so fresh on my mind in part because of party politics, what the systems are that created fatphobia, which I got to talk about a lot in this masterclass. And so having the election stuff be so fresh has really been sort of reinvigorating my passion for talking about these systems, the racism and white supremacy, sexism, these systems of power and oppression that created weight stigma in the first place and how they affect us as individuals in our daily lives, which was a good bit of what that masterclass was talking about because the content of the class was about how to get back in pictures and how to work with the emotions and so on of that advertisement. The replay of that will be up for sale soon as soon as we get that noted.

Jenn (she/they):

We’d love to put that in the show notes.

Chavonne:

We’ll have it in the show notes, yes.

Lindley (she/her):

But the point of this is that we are seeing those systems in action really actively right now. And so having the election and then that masterclass right away where I got to talk about those systems and then having this today is just allowing me to once again get into the thought work of how the political is personal and how these systems are reflected in our daily lives. Because if we think about party politics and national politics here in the US, of course the systems, particularly slavery, of the last 600 years have really infused this election with a Black woman running for president and losing in a fairly dramatic way. Of course, all that is informed by all this history that the US has been a particularly enthusiastic participant been in. But it does come out, it comes out in the way that people in marginalized communities are now feeling.

And fatphobia, weight stigma is a deep part of that because all of these oppressions are located in some way in the body. And so all kinds of bodily oppressions are interwoven. And so on one hand it feels a little, I don’t know, almost shallow or silly to be talking right after this election about body image. But on the other hand, it’s not silly at all because it’s all connected, it’s all interwoven.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah, and body image as a reflection of pain and shifts in our internal environment and lack of met needs. And as you were saying, oppression, that is a body experience, it’s an embodied experience or a disembodied experience or we can’t do those and it’s a disassociated experience.

Chavonne:

Absolutely, absolutely. I have a thought that’s not forming yet, but I’m just glad you’re here and kind of talking about… Go ahead.

Lindley (she/her):

Just moving.

Chavonne:

Oh, just moved. I’m glad you’re here and talking about how this has been sitting for you and how it is… Wow, this coffee has not worked yet, I apologize, but I’m going to say something else. So something you said, the personal is political, I say that all the time and I go as far as say the personal is political as professional so I think it shows up in everything that I do, talked about it at my staff meeting yesterday. The work that we do is because of how our politics show up in our life, and if it doesn’t, then there’s some conversation you need to have with yourself about what you’re doing. And I think that it’s showing up professionally for you as much as it’s showing up personally for you, yeah, Absolutely.

Lindley (she/her):

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And it’s just been so interesting to watch because even just when we talk about having a small business and being on the internet on election day and the day after, there was a lot of pressure on various social media platforms not to post anything promotional to really respect community’s grief, which I don’t disagree with, but also I saw a lot of pushback on that idea that I haven’t seen in previous cataclysms for our communities where there was also a lot of counterpoint discussion of marginalized people still need to eat. And so, again, as someone who had a big event coming up right after, a few days after election day, for me, again, it was personal, personal is political is professional, do I promote this class knowing that a lot of people are going to be too busy in their feelings to either attend or want to see promotions for it? But also, I got a mortgage, a mormage, I have a mormage.

Chavonne:

A mormage, you do.

Jenn (she/they):

I was holing my tongue I’m glad you did it. In my family, that is the biggest form of love is when there’s a tongue slip that it now becomes what we say. So I just love that, a mormage.

Lindley (she/her):

Yeah. And so I think more than in previous years, I think I have seen more discussion around these dynamics, which is good. It is good that we are seeing efforts to move away from taking out our pain on each other that we can talk about how do we respond when we are also marginalized people who need to eat and have a roof over our heads? How do we balance community pain and grief with community, the individual needs of community members to survive at the same time? And I think I’ve been spending a lot of time on a social media platform called Bluesky.

Jenn (she/they):

Me too.

Chavonne:

It’s refreshing.

Lindley (she/her):

Yeah, it’s a Twitter alternative. I’ve been there for over a year now. And so as we speak, there’s another huge influx from Twitter to Bluesky.

Jenn (she/they):

And to Threads I think those are the two biggest apps right now. Yeah.

Lindley (she/her):

Yeah. And Threads is a really hard platform for me because it’s so troll-y. And I post there because I have a fairly large audience there, but I don’t get a lot of traction because I’m not spending time there and I’m not sorry about it, but it’s been the whole time that I’ve been on Bluesky, which again is for over a year there has been this discussion going on the whole time about what kind of space do we want this to be? It’s brand new. What kind of space do we want this to be? What kind of vibe do we want here? What kind of community? What are our norms? What are our standards? What’s the culture like? And this conversation has been taking place in a relatively algorithm-free environment and an ad-free environment, which means that there haven’t been a ton of corporate priorities imposed on this space. So it has mostly been liberals, progressives, and leftists going, “What do we want this to be like?” Which is a fascinating conversation to watch.

And then you go back to some place like Twitter or to Instagram where it’s all algorithm and clickbait driven and you can really see how unhealthy that is. But watching these conversations and then watching as there are these influxes from Twitter where people are bringing those norms with them and watching as those norms clash and who finds the Bluesky norms really refreshing and is like, “Oh, I don’t have to have my Twitter defenses up because people don’t like that over here.” And then-

Jenn (she/they):

There’s no bots either. The bots, 30 of the same thing, aren’t being, it’s a different thing.

Lindley (she/her):

So always on every social platform there are bots that invade and want to, but there’s no algorithm to promote them, and so they don’t get traction.

Jenn (she/they):

You’re right, you’re right.

Chavonne:

I see, okay, okay, interesting.

Lindley (she/her):

There’s actually a person there whose username across Dreamwidth and Bluesky and some other platforms is Rahaeli, R-A-H-A-E-L-I, we’ll put that in the show notes, who talks a lot about trust and safety, so community moderation of social media platforms and trying to get bots and trolls off of platforms. Fascinating stuff. I have wandered really far afield from what we’re going to talk about today, but all of this is just really top of mind right now.

Jenn (she/they):

You know what I was just thinking is actually it’s refreshing to be topical as well because that is challenging, as you were talking about in other space. It’s challenging when the topical becomes a demand. And what I hear you saying is we can be humans, we can be experiencing real things in all its complexity and we can do it together even if it’s not perfect. In fact, I don’t think it’s ever going to be perfect, just a message to all of us who are trying to be in community, we’re never going to be able to have it be truly inclusive, and if we try, it’s going to become exclusive. And so I really appreciate what you’re saying about Bluesky. I just find it so interesting, right? It’s like Discover or something and so I just kind of float through what’s happening, like, “Oh, I have discovered that, I’ll follow you. Oh, that’s an interesting take.”

And also something that’s come over from Twitter or maybe just already I’ve been on Bluesky, I think may have been you, Lindley, who gave me one of your links, I can’t remember when it was still beta and you have to invite other people to join, is that it’s stayed very, very funny, dark humor, sarcasm with very clear notations of those. And just thinking about our first question here, really being text-oriented, which is you can make it a requirement. It’s like, “Hey, don’t forget alt text on Twitter,” it was like, “Do you want to do it?” It was still a question, but on Bluesky it’s like, “Do it.” So I just set it up to tell me to do it, so I won’t forget.

Lindley (she/her):

That’s a setting you can enable in your own account to force yourself to do it.

Chavonne:

I love that.

Jenn (she/they):

Which I love. And so that means there’s a lot of images that come with alt text, so it’s already a more inclusive space, which I just really appreciate, not on Threads, that’s not over there. Yeah, that’s really lovely. No, I appreciate you starting us off on this very real note because my body is just saying. “Yeah, exactly.”

Chavonne:

Yes, yes. We’ve made a bookmark in our last conversation to come back to our list of disability activists with lived experience in super fat and inventive fat bodies. Just wanted to let anybody who’s listening or reading the transcript know that in our show notes, there will be a list of 22 people that we added their Instagram feeds that are those disability activists. And Lee has come up for you since our last conversation if you can think of anyone else in addition to these that you think we’d like to check out?

Lindley (she/her):

Honestly, some of the people that y’all came up with are new to me and I am really looking forward to digging into that.

Jenn (she/they):

This is one of my very special interests, so I stalk them, I make sure I click their notifications come to me, not really stalking #sarcasm. The content is surprising and it always challenges my perspective, my own internalized ableism and just generally is what I didn’t know I didn’t know. That’s a lot of what was coming up in this search, inspired by yours and the people we were already talking about.

Chavonne:

Absolutely.

Lindley (she/her):

Yeah, I love compiling lists of things for people.

Jenn (she/they):

And you do it well. I love your lists.

Chavonne:

You do, oh my gosh.

Lindley (she/her):

It’s like my super power so I’m excited. “Here are 22 people that you should follow.” And it’s so important to listen to activists outside of our own particular sphere.

Chavonne:

Absolutely.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah, exactly. And there’s people that we’ve interviewed on the podcast here, which also that you mentioned, that we mentioned, right? Like Imani-

Chavonne:

This is my interview work list. I was already like, “So I will be doing this one and you can do this one and we’ll just work our way through.”

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah, Whitney, Mikey and there’s a whole dream team of people. Everyone else is just a dream team. So it’s a great group and I love the framing that you created, Lindley, of how do we make sure we’re paying attention to the most marginalized at this particular set of intersections? So I really appreciate that too.

Chavonne:

Yeah, thank you for that call in.

Lindley (she/her):

Yeah, because it’s so easy for us to, I don’t know, I think about in my sphere, I think about, I’m not going to name them because it’s somebody that I have worked with personally and really like who does excellent work, but a thin white woman who posts about weight stigma and fat activism and does that in a really ethical way. They cite their sources, they link to people, they support with their money, they hire fat folks.

But and it’s good that they’re getting the word out, but also they have accumulated this massive audience while not being fat themselves. And so it’s complex because they’re doing excellent work, they’re doing it ethically, but they are not marginalized in that particular way. And so it is so tempting for us to follow the people who are most palatable in a space. If someone is a wheelchair user, but they’re also white, thin and wealthy, there’s nothing wrong with them. But also they’re going to accumulate more of an audience than someone who is fat Black and a wheelchair user. And so there’s nothing wrong with following either of those people, any of those people, but I think if we have the bandwidth to do it, we can be more intentional in who we are elevating the most in our own personal feeds.

Chavonne:

Absolutely.

[22:36]

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah, I love that and thank you for creating that context, another great call in, creating that context of palatability because it is one of the hardest cognitive biases to get around. It’s like we don’t know that we don’t know it because we just have privilege not to see it. And so I just think that’s a really cool call in to even call in to even try to consider. I love that. I love that.

And actually it feels like a really great segue into this question this next one, you have a series, The Thin Privilege Series. Honestly, it’s my favorite series that anyone does on any platform. You do it in multiple ways and so Instagram is where I kind of notice these things pop up. It also includes input from your communities, direct quotes from communities including your Patreon, your blanket on Discord and elsewhere. And it really talks about, it’s like when we’re talking about thin privilege, the privilege of someone who’s palatable, what does it actually mean to not have access to that by creating phrases and highlighting phrases of what is not available unless you are the most privileged in that sort of scenario at many different intersections. And things that thin people or people in a white body such as myself, don’t see, feel, or have experience, or sometimes just never even anywhere near them physically.

I wonder, it is such a vast sort of library already of this lived experience, it made me curious about what your favorites are or not so favorites, what’s hard, what’s interesting, anything like that that comes up.

Lindley (she/her):

I think, oh gosh, so we have another four hours just to talk about that one question, right?

Jenn (she/they):

No pressure also.

Chavonne:

Welcome to episode seven of the Lindley…

Jenn (she/they):

It’s 2026, and we’ve invited Lindley back to have a conversation about this sentence that we said in episode two. We could, I know the three of us could.

Chavonne:

We really could.

Lindley (she/her):

Well, this is why we end up with such long recordings because these questions are just great.

Chavonne:

Thank you. I like that.

Lindley (she/her):

It is so interesting because most of my activism work, to be honest, is because I get annoyed at somebody on the internet, and that’s where it really first started coming from because it was absolutely a reaction years and years ago to trolls being like, “There’s no such thing as thin privilege.” Meanwhile, I’m out here trying to find a, I don’t know, a shirt to wear for an interview.

And it’s been really fascinating how over time those posts have been some of the most polarizing, of course, because they are very confronting. Some of them seem to be confronting because they are easy for people to negate in the sense that, “Well, everybody experiences that once in a while,” or say it is really easy when you see a very fat person say, “I can’t find a bra,” to be like, “Well, I can’t find a bra I like either.” But when I say that, I mean there’s only three or four bras that are made in my size that will physically go on my body. I don’t mean ones I like, I don’t mean ones at my preferred store, I mean literally on the planet. And I have the privilege of being able to buy those couple of bras even if I don’t like them or even if they’re not comfortable, people larger than me, there just aren’t.

And of course this ends up in all sorts of other intersections too like quite often I will have people ask me where to find sensory-friendly clothing in the high end of plus size. It’s not a thing, doesn’t exist, there is no place to buy it. The closest you really get is something like Torrid’s super soft line, which I’m actually wearing right now because I adore it.

Chavonne:

Writing that down.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah, I didn’t know about.

Lindley (she/her):

But you’re at the mercy of one store. And if you are sized out of Torrid, well, there is no sensory friendly.

Jenn (she/they):

It’s also not the most achievable and tangible financially either. Torrid knows what it has, so it’s not necessarily affordable to everyone.

Lindley (she/her):

Right. But if you are a person in a smaller body and you’re seeing a post like this, it’s really easy to negate that in your head because maybe you are getting a couple of the slings and arrows once in a while, but you’re not the people that it’s aimed at. And so it’s really easy to take, “I cannot find a bra,” and minimize that in your own head and be like, “Well, I can’t find a bra either,” when what you actually mean is, “I can’t find one I like at the store that’s easier for me to get to.”

Chavonne:

“They were out of the purple one I wanted that day,” or whatever.

Lindley (she/her):

And so I think those are some of my least favorite, the ones that attract that, “Well, that happens to everybody. You’re just making this up.” And I think my most favorite in the sense of the ones that are most meaningful to me are the ones with personal stories attached, either from me or from other people. Although all of these have personal stories attached. But things like thin privilege is being able to drive a U-Haul because the last time we helped a couple of friends move, they went to pick up the U-Haul and the seat had been made so that neither of their bodies fit between the wheel and the seat.

Jenn (she/they):

It’s not even movable. The modern U-Haul, you can’t even move the seat at all so you fit or you don’t. I recently just moved, I barely fit. I was like, “I hadn’t considered that.”

Chavonne:

I had no idea.

Jenn (she/they):

And I am a mid-fat body, so I could barely fit in there. So it is so inaccessible. Inconvenience is not inaccessibility is also what I’m hearing you say.

Chavonne:

Correct.

Lindley (she/her):

Yes and no because friction is friction in our lives and so I am financially able to buy clothing that fits on my body, even if it’s a huge hassle, even if it is a huge inconvenience. But that means that I am paying more. I’m having to wait for it, I don’t get to try things on in store like a smaller person could, I don’t have very many options. And all of those things are friction or all those inconveniences add up, and at a certain point it becomes inaccessible.

Chavonne:

Yes. Okay, I can see that.

Jenn (she/they):

Got it. It’s like a spectrum of how these things add up to be oppressing.

Lindley (she/her):

Yeah, because that’s all resources that I’m having to spend on that I can’t then spend on something else. There’s actually a donut shop here, a chain here in Seattle that I love very much, but I’m also not a morning person, so I am never up and moving in time to actually get their donuts so it’s rare I have them. Anyway, they are apparently pretty notorious in the service worker industry for not having uniform shirts that fit all their employees, which is thin privilege is your employer having uniform and/or being willing to acquire said uniforms. But the point is that at what point are you going to be excluded because there is so from a job there, because there’s so much friction in trying to get a shirt that fits you.

And so it’s really easy to be like, “Well, it’s just inconvenient for you, that’s not oppression.” But these inconveniences add up in a way that feeds into oppression because how many times can you not be in the company photo because your white collar job wanted everybody in a company polo and you’re a 5x and the biggest size they carry is a 1x. How many times can you not be in the team photo before you’re not a team player? How many times can you not go on the company team building outings before you’re passed up for a promotion? And these things sound very petty, and this is why I do the thin privilege series. I haven’t actually done it in a while on Instagram because I got so tired of people yelling about it, but I need to get back to it.

Chavonne:

It’s a burden to you.

Lindley (she/her):

But that’s why I do it, because it’s really easy to look at someone who is very fat and be like, “You’re fine, whatever. Nobody’s looking at you. Nobody’s paying attention to you. Just go on with your life. Nobody’s oppressing you.” And some of these things, particularly the clothing related things, they’re both very easy to talk about, but they seem very petty. You see that I have reverted to talking about those, but they become so important.

Before we moved here to the Pacific Northwest, my husband had a couple of job interviews out here and one of them, the first one happened to be with Amazon and he didn’t get that job, which is just as well, but it was our first trip to Seattle. I came out with him for the interview and we spent a few days here and the airline lost our luggage. And so suddenly he was in Seattle without an interview outfit, and it was about 8:00 PM the night before the interview and we got to our hotel and we didn’t know whether they would find the suitcase, we didn’t know if they would deliver it. His interview was the next morning, and so we’re trying to find super fat nice business casual dude interview outfit at 8:00/9:00 PM on a Tuesday night in Seattle, and there just wasn’t anything. So we’re at Walmart trying to find anything that will fit on his body that wasn’t the sweatpants he’d flown in, I mean literally anything.

So the outfit that he showed up with for his interview was not suitable and he explained blah, blah, blah, and they were nice about it, but at the same time did showing up looking like a stereotype of a fat person in ill-fitting inappropriate clothing affect his chances at the interview? We can’t know. Again, it’s just as well he didn’t get that job, he’s got a different job he’s very happy with, but some of it is that we can’t know. But also so much of it is a reinforcement of those oppressions in the sense that when we have been indoctrinated our whole lives, being told that fat people are messy and slobs and wear ill-fitting clothing because we don’t care because we’re messy slobs, showing up somewhere in something that reinforces that stereotype reinforces that stereotype in people’s heads but we don’t have the option of playing with stereotypes in the way that a thin person wearing something super oversized and baggy does.

Chavonne:

Right, 100%.

Lindley (she/her):

Their thinness protects them from that perception, we don’t have that protection. And so talking about the thin privilege and giving all these examples in part it’s a way for fat people to feel heard because a part of oppression is isolation, we think we’re the only one that’s experiencing this. And then part of it is because I do have thinner people who are like, “Oh, I didn’t realize that when companies say they’re inclusive, they’re not, they’re lying.” And so in part, it does make a difference for thin folks. And in part, just being able tell our stories. And sometimes for some people that can backfire, like sometimes I’ll have people contact me, fellow fat people who are like, “Well, now I feel like I can’t ever travel internationally because you told that horror story. And if that’s what it’s going to be like for me, I don’t want to do it.”

And I tend to get irritated about that because I’m the messenger, please don’t shoot the messenger. But also if you want to go to Europe, go to Europe, be aware of what it might be like. Take that as data, but you’ve got autonomy, live your life because I’m not telling these stories or the people who really focus on medical horror stories or other aspects. We’re not telling these stories to frighten other fat people into compliance, we’re telling them because then people need to hear them.

Chavonne:

Absolutely.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah. And something we say all the time is it’s not the Oppression Olympics, if you notice your oppression reflected in another statement, it’s okay to notice, but that doesn’t mean that yours isn’t valid.

Chavonne:

Right. Correct, absolutely. Wow.

Jenn (she/they):

I’m impressed that you couldn’t find your favorite because there’s so many good ones, I’m just impressed.

Chavonne:

I know. So, so many. What a gift.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah, I read them often. Just like The Flair Project, which is actually one of the places we mentioned and this is going to be in the show notes, that’s a lived experience library of bodies that are oppressed the most. So it’s something to notice.

Chavonne:

Yeah, absolutely.

Jenn (she/they):

I like that you said it’s data, it’s information. It’s a way in which we can notice what we’re getting ourselves into, how tired we will be, what kind of rest do we need, and do we want to go in that direction if we are aware of those things versus no informed consent at all and having it being a horrific oppressing experience and traumatizing in a way that taints the memory of those things. I really often see those descriptions as something that gives an opportunity just to be informed and that is a huge part of being anti-oppressive because it’s not as isolating, just like you were saying, any kind of relatedness.

Chavonne:

Absolutely.

Jenn (she/they):

Beautiful.

[38:09]

Chavonne:

Yeah, it can’t be easy to hold space around this topic. How do you encourage yourself and those you support to create and tenderly hold boundaries around checking in with capacity, tuning into misalignment and reclaiming energy around such a topic? So how do you stay embodied if you’re able to do so with this work?

Lindley (she/her):

I don’t know whether I’m always gentle about setting boundaries, but I’ve had to learn to be really proactive about boundaries and about the space, the kind of space that I can offer, what is for me, what’s not for me, what I can offer, what I can’t offer. I’ve learned over time that I am not good at and don’t enjoy one-on-one level work, I am not going to be. Jess Baker does that work, Jess Baker is phenomenal at that work, Jess Baker’s books are phenomenal at that work. I’m not the person who is going to take someone who is deep in diet culture and patiently lead them out of it because it turns out my method of doing that is to throw a book at them, possibly literally, and be like, “Here, read Jess Baker and then read Sonia Renee Taylor, and then get back to me.” I don’t have the patience for that work.

And so once I identified that, it also meant that it allows me to conserve my energy for the people who need my voice, which is fairly blunt, which is less sugar-coated. The people who are ready for that can find me, and the people who aren’t ready for that will either seek spaces that are easier for them to be in, or they’ll go because they’re trolling and I will usher them out of the space. But these days, honestly, I think I have intimidated so many people, which is not my preferred way to interact with the world, but also I’m so tired. I think that I have made it so clear what I’m about and who I stand for that I mostly don’t get a ton of boundary pushers these days.

Generally, if people are willing to stick around, they are willing to be respectful of the energy that I’m able to give because I spent so many years setting up those boundaries and learning to set them and enforce them. And so now when I say I’m at capacity, generally people aren’t going to guilt trip me about it. When I say, “I encourage you to go seek out BodyPosiPanda because they are speaking a language that you can understand,” generally people are just going to go do that.

And so so much of it is just having spent a decade and setting up these structures. Generally the people who aren’t ready for it, I had someone who came in my Patreon the other day, paid for the lowest tier, and within 24 hours, they had bounced back out and they left it note that was just like, “Hey, this isn’t interesting to me,” which at the time I was a little bit annoyed by, I’m like, “It’s not an airport. You don’t have to tell me that.”

Chavonne:

“You don’t have to announce your departure.”

Lindley (she/her):

But at the same time, now I appreciate that they were honest. They were like, “I paid you a dollar, but whoa, whoa, whoa, I’m out.” But generally people don’t get to that point unless they’re on. And so much of it has been figuring out my alignment and just being consistent in it. I’m the friend who’s going to be like, “Here’s my really blunt Instagram series, have fun. Read Fearing The Black Body, have fun. I’ll be here when you’re ready to talk about it,” as opposed to trying to be out of alignment with myself and trying to be the super-fat BodyPosiPanda. And Megan Jayne Crabbe, that’s the BodyPosiPanda, I’m talking on Instagram. I see Jenn and Chavonne writing this for the show notes, thank you.

These people who do this work are good at this work, I’m not good at that. It turns out I’m not good at interacting with trolls so I shut down my comments as needed. I have my Facebook page set so that people, they can’t comment unless they’ve been following for more than 24 hours. And it’s not because I don’t like new followers, it’s because troll brigades are not willing to follow me for more than 24 hours and then come back to leave a comment. They’ve already-

Chavonne:

It’s pretty self-protective, yeah.

Lindley (she/her):

Yeah, so I have to be protective or I’ll spend all my time… Anger fuels a lot of my activism work, but I’ll spend all my time overdosing on it, which just gets me into griping to friends and not doing the work.

Jenn (she/they):

It becomes more and more of your energy. Chavonne and I have been coping in this post-election week with What We Do in the Shadows. You are reminding me of, I’ve only watched the pilot so far, I just haven’t had time to watch the rest, but I’m super excited.

Chavonne:

One of favorite shows ever.

Jenn (she/they):

There’s Colin, the Energy Vampire. I’m just hearing and seeing Colin, right? It’s the only kind of vampire who can drain other vampires, right? Even the toughest of us, it doesn’t matter even if we’re tough or not, but everyone deserves their boundaries and especially strong, outspoken people, people who are sharing and making sure that there’s an inclusive aspect. We are perceived as so strong that we should be able to “take it”. And I love that you are not engaging in that. And what a cool way to protect your energy and space from these trolls/Colins of emotional vampires of the world.

Lindley (she/her):

Well, I think what is the hardest part of this is dealing with the energy vampires in our own circles. Trolls are fine, block and delete, block and delete, block and delete. But we have people in our own spaces who, they’re not trolls, or if they are it’s unintentional. They can concern troll. But these are members of our community, our marginalized groups who are there in good faith, but they do not build anything and they don’t build people up. They only tear people down, they only nitpick, they only show up when they have a complaint. And those folks have been the most difficult for me to deal with in my own head and also deal with boundaries wise, because those folks also don’t like boundaries very much.

Chavonne:

Very true.

Lindley (she/her):

Because they get their energy from dreaming it from activists. And often the problem is the pattern. And so when you see those folks show up once, it looks like a genuine concern. And it may be, again, these people are here in good faith, it’s a genuine concern or it’s a genuine call in. But when that’s the only thing they ever do, even if each individual instance is in good faith, it’s exhausting, it’s exhausting. And that has been far more draining, honestly, over time than trolls.

Jenn (she/they):

And you have a lot of experience with that because you have spoken about people in our own circles who are not letting it be an inclusive space and are causing considerable harm, even with the best of intentions?

Lindley (she/her):

Yeah, and pushing back on those folks, again, because it’s the pattern that’s the real problem. When you push back on those folks or don’t engage with those folks, you look like the bad guy. So that has been, I think, my biggest challenge has been figuring out what’s a genuine call in and then what’s a genuine call in and also energy vampire.

Jenn (she/they):

Wow. I’m glad you’re even considering how you can have space from that, because I can’t even imagine how exhausting. It’s a reason I avoid posting regularly, and I’m realizing that’s such a privilege and I really want to push back on that with myself and just now as you say-

Chavonne:

And also no.

Jenn (she/they):

That’s why I haven’t. I’m still driven to do so, I think it’s really important and it’s going to have to be a boundary space. So thanks for that sort of modeling of that, even as you’re in progress.

Lindley (she/her):

Yeah, and it’s a work in progress. I definitely don’t always get it right because I am an autistic lady who shouts on the internet. My tone shifts from day to day, my boundary shift from day to day, my pattern recognition of what other people are doing shifts from day to day. So sometimes I think I’m peopling correctly and I’m really, really not, and I’m being off-putting in a way I don’t intend, I don’t realize it for two weeks. I go, “Oh. When I saw one of the humans doing that, oh, I did that incorrectly, whoops.” So none of us get things right 100% of the time, but what I do think is getting it right is saying, “This is my boundary for myself. I don’t have the energy to post all the time.” And saying, “This is what I can give the world, this is what I can’t.” Right now I haven’t been able to do thin privilege posts on Instagram, but they’ve been auto running because they’re on Facebook.

Chavonne:

So smart.

Lindley (she/her):

And so they’ve been running themselves on Facebook, which means occasionally something really out of date also gets posted. But most of the time having an auto poster is great. And so just giving different spaces and the energy that I can, which is another whole discussion that we could easily spend another whole day on. But yeah, I think it’s really smart to say, “I don’t have the energy to post all the time. Here’s what I can offer the world.”

Chavonne:

Yes.

Jenn (she/they):

Wonderful. Well, thank you, Lindley. I know you got to hop off here, so I want to give you space to do that. Wow. So in this amount of time, less than an hour that we did all of this, this is going to be one of the longest coolest show notes we’re ever going to have. And I just think that’s awesome.

Chavonne:

I know.

Jenn (she/they):

It’s amazing. So we love spending time with you, we love hearing from you, we love being with you. We got a broccoli jumping up in the background for those who can’t see who’s like, “What’s up?”

Lindley (she/her):

Hi bro colli.

Jenn (she/they):

“We’re finishing, what are we doing? It’s time to go?” Yes, almost. So we just love you and we just love spending time with you. So thank you so much for being with us.

Lindley (she/her):

Yes, thank you.

Jenn (she/they):

Thank you.

Chavonne:

See you. See you soon, bye.

Jenn (she/they):

Sorry Chavonne. See you in 2026 and 2027 for the Lindley season.. we love you so much, doll.

Chavonne:

Definitely.

Jenn (she/they):

So good to be with you, we’ll see you soon.

Lindley (she/her):

All right, thank you so much.

Jenn (she/they):

Bye.

Chavonne: Thank you for listening to Season 4 of the Embodiment for the Rest of Us podcast. Episodes will be published the first Thursday of every month-ish (in case we need some wiggle room) wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also find all podcast content (including the transcript and show notes) at our website, EmbodimentForTheRestOfUs.com.

Jenn: And follow us on social media on Instagram @EmbodimentForTheRestOfUs.