Embodiment for the Rest of Us – Season 4, Episode 3: Niyera Hewlett
Thursday, April 4, 2024
Chavonne (she/her) and Jenn (she/her) interviewed Niyera (they/them) about their embodiment journey.
Niyera (they/them) is a Licensed Professional Clinical Counselor in New Mexico and North Carolina who supervises counseling students, social work students, and licensed associates. They founded a queer and neurodivergent affirming mental health agency in Albuquerque that can be found at: youmeandtherapy.com. They work from an anti-oppressive, relational lens that helps inform how they approach supervision and therapy. They specialize in working with marginalized communities, complex trauma, dissociation, and much more. They are a trans non-binary neurodivergent human of Middle Eastern descent, raised by an immigrant mother. They reside in New Mexico with their spouse, two children, and three cats. In their spare time, they spend a lot of time imagining and writing fantasy stories as a special interest.
Content Warning: discussion of genocide, discussion of ableism privilege, discussion of diet culture, discussion of fatphobia, discussion of racism, discussion of fatphobia in the career space, discussion of mental health, discussion of chronic medical issues
Trigger Warnings:
53:24: Chavonne uses “crazy” in a way that is ableist.
A few highlights:
3:54: Niyera shares their understanding of embodiment and her own embodiment journey
9:28: Niyera discusses how the pandemic affected their embodiment practices
28:14: Niyera shares their understanding of “the rest of us” and how they are a part of that, as well as their privileges
31:42: Niyera discusses how the word “Rest” right in the middle of the podcast name feels, occurs, and shows up for her
42:55: Niyera shares how their own work and supporting clients has changed and challenged their relationship with their own embodiment
1:00:47: Niyera discusses their experience learning and unlearning while calling out what is oppressive in our systems
1:13:50: Niyera discusses how listeners can make a difference based on this conversation
1:21:29: Niyera shares where to be found and what’s next for them
Links from this episode:
Persistent Drive for Autonomy (PDA)
Music: “Bees and Bumblebees (Abeilles et Bourdons), Op. 562” by Eugène Dédé through the Creative Commons License
Please follow us on social media:
Twitter: @embodimentus
Instagram: @embodimentfortherestofus
CAPTIONS
Season 4 Episode 3 is 1 hour, 28 minutes and 40 seconds (1:28:40) long.
Jenn: Welcome to our 4th season of the Embodiment for the Rest of Us podcast, a series exploring topics and intersections that exist in fat, queer, and disability liberation (and beyond!!)! You can consider this an anti-oppressive and generative space full of repair and intention.
Chavonne: In this podcast, we interview those with lived experience and professionals alike to learn how they are affecting radical change and how we can all make this world a safer and more welcoming place for all humans who are historically and currently marginalized and should be centered, listened to, and supported.
Jenn: Captions and content warnings are provided in the show notes for each episode, including specific time stamps, so that you can skip triggering content any time that feels supportive to you! This podcast is a representation of our co-host and guest experiences and may not be reflective of yours. These conversations are not medical advice, and are not a substitute for mental health or nutrition support.
Chavonne: In addition, the conversations held here are not exhaustive in their scope or levels of inquiry. These topics, these perspectives are not complete and are always in process. These are just highlights! Just like posts on social media, individual articles, or any other podcast – this is just a snapshot of the full picture.
Jenn: We are always interested in any feedback on this process, especially if you feel something needs to be addressed. We invite you to email us at Listener@EmbodimentForTheRestOfUs.com with any comments, requests, or concerns.
[1:44]
(J): Welcome! It’s April and hello from Season 4 Episode 3 of the Embodiment for the Rest of Us podcast. In today’s episode, we are so excited to share our conversation with my therapist, Niyera Hewlett (they/them), about their embodiment journey.
(C): Niyera (they/them) is a Licensed Professional Clinical Counselor in New Mexico and North Carolina who supervises counseling students, social work students, and licensed associates. They founded a queer and neurodivergent affirming mental health agency in Albuquerque that can be found at: youmeandtherapy.com. They work from an anti-oppressive, relational lens that helps inform how they approach supervision and therapy.
(J): They specialize in working with marginalized communities, complex trauma, dissociation, and much more. They are a trans non-binary neurodivergent human of Middle Eastern descent, raised by an immigrant mother. They reside in New Mexico with their spouse, two children, and three cats. In their spare time, they spend a lot of time imagining and writing fantasy stories as a special interest.
(C): Wherever and however you are listening to this today, you are in for an insightful and meaningful conversation. We are so delighted to have you join us!
[2:56]
Jenn (she/they):
Hello! We are filled with joy to have my therapist, Niyera Hewlett, they/them, here who is joining us from across town, across Albuquerque, in Rio Rancho. We had Chavonne’s therapist on in our first season, and it was a conversation full of a lot of growth and healing and laughter.
Welcome! We’re delighted. We’re so excited that we’re all together. We were just talking about that in the same space and chatting about embodiment as we know it. How are you doing at and in this moment, Niyera?
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah, I’m doing pretty well today. Yeah, it’s been a good week so far, and really excited to chat with you all today.
Jenn (she/they):
Yay!
Chavonne (she/her):
We’re so excited!
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yay! We’re so excited.
Jenn (she/they):
I’m fidgeting up a storm with excitement.
Niyera (they/them):
Me too.
Jenn (she/they):
I’ve got multiple fidgets going.
Chavonne (she/her):
Fidgets and coffee, things are happening, yeah.
Jenn (she/they):
Yes, and caffeinated.
Niyera (they/them):
Oh, yeah. I’m caffeinated.
Chavonne (she/her):
Caffeinated always.
Jenn (she/they):
Yeah.
[3:54]
Chavonne (she/her):
As we start this conversation about being present to and in our bodies, I’d love to start with asking a centering question about the themes of our podcast and how they occur to you. Can you share with us what embodiment means to you and what your embodiment journey has been like, if you would like to share?
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah. Such a huge question.
Jenn (she/they):
Yeah, it’s not a small question. That’s right.
Niyera (they/them):
I’m like, “Wow.”
Chavonne (she/her):
Just a little thing there.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah, for a nice word, right? Embodiment. Yeah. So I mean, to me, and I’m sure someone else has said this on your podcast, but I think it’s just authenticity, being yourself in a way that you just don’t question it.
When I was reflecting on this question in the past week, I had a memory of when I studied abroad in Costa Rica for a month in college, and there’s this beach called Conchal Beach, and it’s made up solely of seashells, and so it’s all broken seashells and the water’s crystal clear because there’s no sand to go in the waves. And I think just in that moment, it hurt to walk a little because there are sharp, little seashells, but then floating in the water and just imagining being one of those seashells, that was my embodiment moment and just thinking, “There’s nothing in the world that matters except right here, right now.”
And so I think that’s what it means to me is when I’m truly embodied, I’m not thinking of anything else. I’m being myself. I’m being authentic, I’m being genuine, and whoever’s in the room is feeling the same way. And yeah, I think when Jenn asked me to be on the podcast, I was thinking about that too, and it was pre-surgery. And so now after having top surgery and everything, I was thinking, “Yeah, that would be really different too, to feel like, what is my embodiment like after I feel more safe in my body?” And that has been transformative as well.
So I think there was some embodiment happening pre-surgery, but I feel like just so much more connected and in my body ever since, and that’s been phenomenal. The best decision of my life.
Jenn (she/they):
Yeah. Congratulations. Amazing.
Chavonne (she/her):
That’s great. Congratulations. Absolutely, absolutely.
Jenn (she/they):
Yeah. Oh my gosh.
Chavonne (she/her):
I guess my question is, do you feel like you were able to feel embodied before surgery? Did it feel like it was more of an effort to feel embodied before and this is more easeful, or when you say, “It’s different,” how is it sitting differently for you?
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah, that’s actually a good way to phrase it. I think now, it’s just natural. I can be embodied at any moment, and it’s just automatic. Whereas before, it’s like I had to do mindfulness and prep myself to be in social situations, and even if it’s ones that I wanted to go to and I knew the people there and all this stuff, it always felt like I was trying a lot more to be in those spaces. And so now it just feels like it’s there, more access to it, yeah.
Chavonne (she/her):
That’s beautiful. I’m so glad. So, so glad.
Jenn (she/they):
It is!
Chavonne (she/her):
Yeah, absolutely.
Niyera (they/them):
And I never imagined it would feel like this. I was like, “Oh, it could be like this,” but then once you’re in it, you’re like, “Holy crap.” It’s so different.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yeah. Talk about affirmation, talk about gender-affirming care, the affirm of the affirming care. That’s beautiful. That’s absolutely beautiful.
Jenn (she/they):
Oh, that’s a good point. And you know, as you were talking about those shells, you even mentioned that they were a little painful under your feet, and I actually had this thought of, “Oh, that is what embodiment feels like, isn’t it?” Sometimes it’s, “Ouch, that hurts.” And so I was just appreciating that in the analogy, and also the flow of the waves and the clarity of the waves and the transparency.
And then when you were talking about after top surgery, I was like, “Oh, that’s interesting,” that I was already thinking about how clear and transparent it could be. And also, I have the privilege of being in a body that feels like it’s my body the way that it is, and so of course in that first analogy, I was like, “Oh, yeah. I totally relate to that.” I’m so happy that you had access to that, and you have just a chance to explore without the effort, without the dysmorphic and dysphoric things that come from all of the wiggling through trying to get to a place of feeling comfortable just to be in social situations or sometimes just to be in a particular set of clothing because I know that that can be very triggering based on how it feels, and so I’m just feeling really grateful for that.
I love that, affirm in the gender-affirm. Right, you got to validate yourself?
Chavonne (she/her):
Yes, yes. Absolutely, yeah.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah, yeah. It’s been so affirmative, and I don’t know, I think a lot of people end up going through this too, process. When you get it scheduled and stuff, you’re like, “Will I regret it?” That thought does come up, and that did come up for me, and I’m like, “What if I regret it?” And things like that, and it’s just been zero regrets, so that’s been super nice.
Chavonne (she/her):
That’s wonderful.
Niyera (they/them):
This was definitely the right decision, yeah.
Chavonne (she/her):
What a gift. That’s wonderful.
Jenn (she/they):
Yeah, I’ll say how lovely to know that, just to know that.
Niyera (they/them):
Exactly.
Jenn (she/they):
Wow. And to have the chance to know that, it’s amazing.
And just thinking about some, I don’t know, larger context of things is this next question. Thinking about the ongoing pandemic and how it can affect embodiment in ways that challenge processes, like the effort part you were talking about, also, there’s a lot of ableism, virtue signaling, and “back to normal” energy at a very not normal time of the current moment. I’m curious how that feels and lands for you around your embodiment process.
[9:28]
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah. So the pandemic brought up a ton of bad, but some good, in my life at least, so I had that privilege a little bit.
So at the start of the pandemic, I was in North Carolina, not a great state for the quarantine stuff, and two weeks prior, I had my first child, and so we didn’t know what was going on. I had normal birth, hospital birth, and then two weeks later, everything shut down. And so I was privileged enough to be on parental leave for the first two months of it. I was working in a hospital at the time, and so I did have to end up going back, and this was of the time too where we didn’t know what was going on in terms of is it airborne? Is it on your clothes? So every time I came home after returning to work, I would take off all my clothes, do a full shower, all that fun stuff.
And so it was definitely terrifying. I don’t think I was embodied in any way, sleep-deprived from having a newborn, I was nursing, and then having to leave the newborn after eight weeks, and then going into a hospital setting. Definitely dissociated for a lot of it, so not embodied in any way.
I will say that I guess the good that came out of it was that I had to really slow down, and I think six months after we returned to work, I was like, “This is not it. I don’t like taking showers every day before I can hold my newborn again. I need to get out of this space.” And so that’s when I made the jump into private practice, and it was probably the perfect time just because there was a huge need. Everyone was isolated and struggling with their mental health, and so I definitely filled up within two weeks, so it was-
Chavonne (she/her):
I’m sure.
Niyera (they/them):
And I was such a niche in there. I was the only queer person in my work at the hospital, so I was really tokenized at that time. Everyone would come to me for that. And then also, I was one of four gender therapists in North Carolina, so I was the only one of four that would write letters for people for gender-affirming care. And so that’s why I blew up when I started offering these services.
And yeah, so it’s really taught me to slow down, have some balance. My kids especially have brought me into my body so much. They are one of my saving graces. That was probably the best decision of my life, second or first to top surgery, having kids.
Chavonne (she/her):
It’s okay if they’re not first.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah.
Chavonne (she/her):
I’m just kidding.
Niyera (they/them):
But yeah, I don’t even know if it feels back to normal just because we are in this whole world with these new standards and whatnot. But yeah, I think it really did bring me into my body towards the more recent years, for sure.
Chavonne (she/her):
It sounds like for you, for a lot of people, and I’m also saying this aware of my own privilege, it gave you space. It felt very expansive in a very constricted… Well, it was very constricting, but it was also expansive in a constricting way, I guess?
Jenn (she/they):
You already started answering this, Niyera. I guess I’m curious about any other things in this category, things that connect you further embodiment-wise, or times in which you’re the most embodied. I would guess maybe around your kids now that you’ve talked about that, but I’m just curious about how private practice might make you feel more connected to yourself and when you might feel most embodied at work or in personal life.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah, yeah. I mean, personally, when I’m with my kids, when I’m in my community, when I’m with friends, all those. I weeded my people to where it’s everyone I’m around will truly do this for me.
Jenn (she/they):
Oh, we’ve done that too.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah.
Chavonne (she/her):
Oh, yeah.
Niyera (they/them):
I feel like your, I don’t know, late 20s into 30s is that time where you’re just like, “Screw all those people.” Yeah, my energy is precious and therefore I don’t need these folks, right?
Jenn (she/they):
Mm-hmm.
Chavonne (she/her):
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Niyera (they/them):
So yeah, doing those, being outdoors, that’s a lot of what I do is just take kids to the park, zoo, whatever. They need to run around a lot. And yeah, they’ve really taught me to get off my phone and watch what they’re doing because they fall every 10 seconds and the boo-boos, you need to see what’s happening, all that stuff. But yeah, there’s just something about the way wind hits the trees and just being outdoors, those kinds of things, that really center me.
And then in work, I think I’ve always worked in settings where I didn’t have a choice, prior to private practice, where I didn’t have a choice of who I saw. And so I value that experience and don’t think anything is wrong with that. It exposed me to a lot. It’s gotten me to where I’m not afraid of who walks in the door, situations and whatnot, and I think it makes me a good supervisor, but I think when I really got to work with the people who are in my community and I identify with and I have shared experiences with, that just really brought me to life as a therapist. I just felt like I could do the work that I wanted to do, I was making progress with folks, I was having more of those, I don’t know, tastes and moments of gratitude and affirmation and all this stuff from… And I’ve done a lot of work around being human in the room, so I’ve cried with clients, all kinds of stuff, and it just really opens you up in that way when you get to choose who you want.
I mean, this is going to sound really terrible, but for a time, I did not take cis straight white men.
Jenn (she/they):
Uh, relate.
Chavonne (she/her):
There’s nothing wrong with that.
Niyera (they/them):
I know, but I was like-
Chavonne (she/her):
Not at all.
Niyera (they/them):
“… They don’t need me. There’s other people out there that can help them.”
Chavonne (she/her):
“You’re fine.” Yeah, yeah.
Niyera (they/them):
And yeah, making that boundary for myself, yeah, totally embodied me in my work in that way.
Chavonne (she/her):
Absolutely, yeah.
Niyera (they/them):
But yeah, that’s for anyone out there who needs to make boundaries, it’s okay. Exclude the cis straight white men.
Jenn (she/they):
Yeah. I-
Chavonne (she/her):
As a supervisor, I say that too. I’m like, “If there are certain people that you know do not need to see, okay, there’s more than enough of us out there. The cis straight white dude can see someone other than Niyera, that’s fine. Somewhere else. Go somewhere else.”
Yeah, yeah. I’m not going to force… I know we’re all about challenging ourselves and blah, blah, blah, and that’s important, but also, don’t do it to the point that it is detrimental to you as a clinician.
Niyera (they/them):
Exactly. And at one point, you challenged yourself enough, you’re like, “I can work with them, I just don’t want to.”
Chavonne (she/her):
Yeah. “I’m done. I just don’t want to.” Yeah.
Jenn (she/they):
I’m hearing in what both of you are saying is that we get to be people too. In so many professions that are not helping professions, it is normal to take the clients that you choose to see. That’s just a normal, unspoken part of that. In therapeutic work and dietetics work and counseling and just anything therapeutic in general, I notice that we are encouraged by our education, and often have to unlearn this, that we try to maximize who we see versus… Okay, the word isn’t optimize. That doesn’t feel good either. Versus being relational, targeted, interested.
It’s okay if we’re interested in doing particular work. I have a specialty in disorderly eating and eating disorders. It’s okay that I do that. Why isn’t it also okay to see who we’d like to see? It’s okay that it’s a match, a therapeutic match.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yeah, we’re encouraged to-
Jenn (she/they):
Isn’t that what we’re doing, sharing space that’s supposed to be like a match?
Chavonne (she/her):
Yeah.
Jenn (she/they):
It’s okay to try things. And I also love what you both said, like, “We have been challenged enough.” Right?
Niyera knows this intimately. I’m like, “Okay.” Here, I’ll show them. Niyera already knows this, but I have a thing that says, “Did you have a lunch hour today?” Right?
Chavonne (she/her):
What are those?
Jenn (she/they):
It’s on every single… This is my calendar. Every week in my calendar-
Chavonne (she/her):
I need to do that.
Jenn (she/they):
… it’s like, “Did I have a lunch hour today?” Because I will just lose my lunch hour so that I can affect as many people as possible. I will work on a Sunday to see. I still have this within me. I could switch back at any moment. I was actually thinking about this yesterday. I can switch back at any moment and just give up my Sundays again and my evenings, but I have sacrificed a decade’s worth of evenings and Sundays, actually more than that, more like almost 15 years.
Why? Like, why? I don’t have to do that anymore. I understand why I did that. I loved the people that I was able to support and help, and also, that just doesn’t feel like a match for me anymore. I’m not embodied in the evenings. I’m struggling. I’m not embodied on a Sunday anymore. I am struggling. So it didn’t even feel like I could give the same quality of care, so that doesn’t feel good to me either.
That’s why I purposely started and I did it ahead of schedule because as soon as I started doing it, I gave myself a deadline by the end of last year, and as soon as I started doing it… Also, I caught COVID, which was my first time and really brought things into perspective. I was like, “Bye, Sundays. Okay, they’re gone now.” So to be able to be a human in our practices does feel embodied. I love that. I love what that opened up.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah.
Chavonne (she/her):
Absolutely. Something that really sat with me, it finally came back to what I was trying to say when you were talking about dissociating-
Jenn (she/they):
Good job!
Chavonne (she/her):
Yes, it took a minute, but I got there, was how protective… I often hear how to work through dissociation and not dissociate as much, but it was really protective for you. And I think sometimes it’s what we have to do, not to seek embodiment, but so that you’re able to feel embodied in the future. If I’m completely in the suck all the time, it’s really hard to pull myself out, if I can distance myself a little bit, then I can find myself a little bit more easily in the future. And it sounds like that’s what you had to do.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, dissociation is a total protective factor. I think the concern that people get to is when you can’t come out of it, and sometimes you don’t have that control.
Chavonne (she/her):
The intention of dissociation’s okay, I guess, yeah.
Jenn (she/they):
Right, that’s a good point.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yeah, yeah.
Niyera (they/them):
But yeah, I think it’s totally normal. I think even, I don’t know if you follow any hypnotherapists or something, but they talk about that as being a hypnotic state versus dissociation.
Chavonne (she/her):
Oh, I love that.
Niyera (they/them):
One funny joke that I love is meditation rebranded dissociation successfully, like the best rebrand ever.
Chavonne (she/her):
Oh! Oh, I love that!
Niyera (they/them):
Technically, it is. You’re just kind of dissociating into a calmer space, right?
Jenn (she/they):
Yeah.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yeah. Wow. That’s great.
Niyera (they/them):
A more mindful space, but yeah. So I think it got me through that time and I needed to do it. And I feel like as a parent of any… Even now, my kids are two and four, so it’s like at this stage, it’s like you can’t… It’s 24/7, it’s terrible a lot of the time, it’s great some of the time, and I haven’t slept a night through in the last four years, probably even more because during pregnancy and stuff too. And so yeah, you just kind of have to push through and you’ll get there. And yeah, now I have more of those present embodied moments and super grateful for that.
But yeah, the pandemic, I feel like a lot of people ended up having to do that just because… Even now, it’s like how do you function when it’s like this huge thing is going on? Or the genocide now, for example. The genocide’s going on, but we still have to pay rent, we still have to go to work, we still got to feed our kids. It’s just like you have to dissociate on some level to keep going, otherwise, we won’t. We’ll just stay in bed all day, or we’ll consume everything, or I would love to be in the streets doing the activism once again, those kinds of situations, but it’s just like, “Yeah, that doesn’t pay the bills, unfortunately.” And until we get to a system where it’s like, “You don’t have to pay your bills, let’s focus on this thing,” we’re just kind of stuck.
Jenn (she/they):
That’s right. Without a universal basic income, I can’t make choices to do things that are the most aligned with my heart, with my ethics, with my values.
Niyera (they/them):
Exactly.
Jenn (she/they):
There’s choices to be made.
Chavonne (she/her):
Absolutely.
Jenn (she/they):
I appreciate that nod to the genocide and Palestine, but also all the genocides. This genocide has made me acutely aware of all of the genocides that are happening, which there is a ridiculous number of them happening. I can’t remember what the count is at this point, like 10, 12, something like that. It’s a lot. That my family is from Lebanon and my body feels what’s happening there. Actually, Niyera was super helpful for me in realize… I’m like, “Oh my gosh, I’m protected by whiteness.” It’s like, “Okay, but your body knows.” Just noticing that, right?
I have clients who are Palestinian, I have clients who have family in other genocides. It’s a space of… What am I trying to say here? Dissociation feels sacred almost. It’s not just protective and functional and those sorts of things. And I love the distinction of it being intentional versus like, “Uh-oh, I’m dissociated, again,” right? Two totally different feelings, but just the part of it that’s like, “It’s a privilege to be able to dissociate.” And also, I’m thinking about people on the ground in these situations. I imagined that they live a lot of their daily lives extremely dissociated as a way to stay somewhat human. I mean, I can’t even imagine what it’s like to endure that and the sounds in the air and all these other sort of torture techniques that come along with it, not being properly fed or rested or secure in just about any way.
It’s like as a world culture, we don’t promote embodiment anymore, but I feel like we used to. Maybe before the Industrial Revolution, maybe, maybe hundreds of years ago, but also maybe before… I don’t know, there’s something in the last eight or so years that have… The way that we’re allowed to have autonomy or not is so threatened in so many ways. It’s a challenge to stay embodied. What we hold space for with clients, what we hold space for in our own bodies, what we hold space for for the little ones in our lives, all of that.
So just thinking about how it’s sacred, it’s like, “Oh, thank goodness I get to dissociate right now.” I still love my random TikTok of what’s his name? Tom Holland showing up doing Rihanna’s, “Umbrella.” I will watch that every time.
Chavonne (she/her):
Oh, it’s so good. It’s so fucking good.
Jenn (she/they):
Right? I love that kind of embodiment where I’m like, “Yes!” My latest favorite is someone on TikTok said, “Men don’t want us to be loud,” and then all the responses are just people screaming.
Niyera (they/them):
That’s great.
Chavonne (she/her):
That’s pretty fantastic.
Jenn (she/they):
Those little dissociative moments usually have laughter or pure enjoyment for me, but they’re really important. I watched an entire TV show on Saturday, something I haven’t done in years. One Day on Netflix. It was the most bingeable thing I’ve watched recently. It was just so nice to be in a story that wasn’t all the hard stuff, and I had had a real intention to rest over the weekend. I knew I really, really needed it, but my brain was having trouble checking out. I was like, “Got to do this, got to do that. My intern starts on Tuesday. I got to do this, got to do that,” and I was having trouble turning off the cycles.
So I watched something. I tired my eyes out, and I was like… My eyes were watering. I tried to watch some NBA stuff with my partner at the end of the day, I was like, “I can’t. I have to go to bed.” My eyes just couldn’t watch TV anymore. I don’t think I’ve ever done that, but it felt really embodied to be like, “My eyes can’t. I’m going to bed.”
So I love this. I love this idea of association as a really expansive concept.
Chavonne (she/her):
Me too.
Jenn (she/they):
To de-stigmatize and de-pathologize that label really specifically.
Chavonne (she/her):
Absolutely.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah. I think it has a place, for sure.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yeah. And I also appreciate your saying your energy is precious. Absolutely. Amen, amen.
Jenn (she/they):
Yeah, that’s my favorite thing.
Chavonne (she/her):
Snaps, claps, whatever. It’s definitely… The pandemic has taught me many things for better and worse, but definitely how to be mindful of who gets my energy. Absolutely. Who gets my time, who gets my space, yeah. So it’s been helpful in that way.
Jenn (she/they):
We were talking before we recorded about judgment, and I’m just noticing that we need judgment in this space to be able to make our energy stay precious and to choose what’s around us. Judgment is a part of autonomy and agency, just really saying that.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yeah, and my favorite word, discernment. Yeah.
Jenn (she/they):
Ugh, that’s one of the best words ever.
Chavonne (she/her):
I love that word.
Jenn (she/they):
Me too. I totally agree.
Chavonne (she/her):
Such a good word. I love ascer… Discernment. I said, “Ascernment,” like that’s a thing. Okay. Is that the opposite?
Jenn (she/they):
I have no idea.
[28:14]
Chavonne (she/her):
We’ll be looking that up later. For our next question, what does the Rest of Us mean to you? How do you identify within the Rest of Us? We’d also love for you to share your pronouns and name your privileged identities in context here too.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah. The Rest of Us are not the cis straight white men, basically. Just thinking about-
Chavonne (she/her):
Exactly.
Niyera (they/them):
… they’re so silly. Yeah. So I am a non-binary, and under that umbrella, I kind of identify as both kind of in between male and female in that binary. But I use they/them pronouns. I really don’t get triggered if I get misgendered. So yeah, any pronouns really feel okay too.
And so yeah, I guess some of my identities are including privileged ones is like, yeah, I’m white, half-white, and Egyptian Middle Eastern as well. And so like Jenn, what you were saying about feeling it in your body, that’s totally present for me as well, seeing people that look like me dying every day is pretty hard.
And yeah, and I’m married. I’m to a cis straight white man. Well, I don’t know if he’s straight anymore considering he’s married to me.
Chavonne (she/her):
I love that.
Niyera (they/them):
He has to figure that out for himself, but yeah. That’s kind of me in a… And I guess a parent, a place of privilege I guess, I grew up lower-middle class, I guess. Yeah, things like that.
And yeah, I am white-passing. I am in a straight-passing marriage, things like that, and so I can hide, and I have been intentional in hiding at points in my life as well, so I just want to name that as well. And I do enter white spaces as the covert person of color as well, and fuck shit up sometimes.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yes, always. I’m all about fucking shit up.
Jenn (she/they):
That’s what I’m talking about!
Chavonne (she/her):
Yes.
Niyera (they/them):
So I do try to use my white privilege in that way of being like, “I’m going to educate you because I look like you and maybe you’ll receive it from me” kind of situation. So yeah, I’ve been trying to do that more.
I don’t know if that answered the whole question, but yeah.
Jenn (she/they):
Yeah, I think it did.
Chavonne (she/her):
However you want to answer it is perfectly fine. Absolutely.
Jenn (she/they):
Yeah.
Chavonne (she/her):
We leave it open-ended because some people, we talk about this all the time, some people have different identities that are more salient for them than others, and so it’s however you decide to name it. Absolutely.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah. I will say growing up with a brown mom and a white dad is pretty fun in that way, especially in New Mexico. Everyone assumed my mom was Latina or Mexican or things like that, but when people say, “Oh, you’re white,” I’m like, “Yeah.” And then my mom comes along, they’re like, “Oh, whoops.”
Chavonne (she/her):
Psych! That’s great.
Niyera (they/them):
And then in Egypt, when we go visit, everyone thinks she’s my tour guide. I think that’s funniest thing.
Chavonne (she/her):
Oh, no! That’s hilarious.
Jenn (she/they):
Oh, gosh. Oh, gosh.
Niyera (they/them):
I’m like, “No, that’s my mom.”
Chavonne (she/her):
“That’s my mama.”
Jenn (she/they):
Yes, yes.
[31:42]
Chavonne (she/her):
That’s great. That’s great. As part of our realization of our… As co-hosts last season when all we did was talk about how much we needed rest and weren’t resting enough, Jenn realized that the word rest shows up in the middle of the podcast name. So how does that sit for you in terms of rest for you, in terms of embodiment? How does it feel or show up for you?
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah. Well, I think rest is super important. I think I try to hammer that into clients especially, and myself, that you don’t need to earn rest. It is a part of life. It is a part of self-care. It needs to happen. Otherwise, we just run ourselves into the ground. And I think that’s why burnout came out so heavily in the pandemic is when we finally got to slow down and rest. It was like, “Holy crap. How was I operating at this caliber for so long?”
And so, yeah, that actually happened to me recently. So after surgery, well, I took a month off in my recovery, and then was having a lot of anxiety going back to work to see clients in particular. And then after a few days in, I made the decision that I needed to cut my caseload back by 75%. And so yeah, I think that really cued me into rest is super important. If I keep going at this pace, I will not have a body to be embodied in, and so I need to take care of myself. And there is a certain amount you can reverse, but at a certain point when you hit a certain age, it’s like your body stops regenerating to a certain extent.
Yeah, yeah. So I think you need rest to be embodied in any given moment.
Jenn (she/they):
You need rest to be embodied. I kind of hear that as… How would I… I feel it more like, more than hearing it. Needing rest to be embodied is a description or a state of being of when we’re embodied, we are still within the limitations of our own body. When we’re in burnout, when we’re pushed really hard, we’re outside of our actual capacity and capability, and so we can’t see things clearly, the embodiment itself, what our body needs, what we need, all those other sorts of things.
So needing rest to be embodied is an invitation to stay within our body’s limitations, to stay… I don’t mean to phrase them contextually around limitations, but staying within our ability to maintain our autonomy and agency because we have all our faculties about us. We have access to ourselves. We have the sensations that come with instincts that are like, “No, don’t go there,” or like, “yes, that’s the direction to go.”
I like that, rest is really something that’s needed for embodiment. I don’t know that I’ve connected that.
Chavonne (she/her):
Same.
Jenn (she/they):
It feels very logical and obvious right now, but I don’t know that I’ve actually connected it in that order.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yeah, yeah. And I also think you do have to know your limitations though. When you say you don’t want to put it in that context, I think you have to know what it is. Otherwise, “I’m super embodied, I’m super embodied. Oh, shit. I’m really sick.” That’s how it goes for me. Everything’s feeling great until I feel like shit or my kids get sick and then I get it 10 times worse because I didn’t realize that I hadn’t rested for like… Or I didn’t live within my limitations. I’m just… Do you know what embodiment is if you don’t know what your limitations are, I guess, is my question?
Jenn (she/they):
Oh, dang. Okay. Now I wonder if I was being ableist.
Niyera (they/them):
That’s a good one.
Jenn (she/they):
I have to think about that.
Chavonne (she/her):
I don’t know if it’s a… I don’t know that they say it as an ableist thing, I think it’s just an awareness?
Jenn (she/they):
I don’t know. I don’t like how I shied away from it so quickly. I was like, “I don’t like talking about limitations.” I don’t know if-
Niyera (they/them):
I wonder if it’s a PDA thing like, “Don’t tell me I have limits” kind of situation?
Jenn (she/they):
Oh, shit.
Chavonne (she/her):
Excuse me. Um….
Jenn (she/they):
Okay. Therapist coming in hot. That’s exactly what it is. Oh, dang. It is!
Chavonne (she/her):
Journal topic!
Jenn (she/they):
Yes.
Chavonne (she/her):
How dare you tell me I have limitations?
Jenn (she/they):
Yeah, how rude!
Chavonne (she/her):
How rude!
Niyera (they/them):
I can do anything anytime, yeah.
Chavonne (she/her):
Anytime!
Jenn (she/they):
Yeah, you know, that’s a really great point. My PDA is very related to how I am using language. I’ve cast aside so many things that affect, talking about like, “My energy is precious,” people who were giving me PDA, situations like… It’s just my body saying, “We don’t want to do this. Why are we still doing this?” That’s really what that experience is. So when it shows up, I’m like, “Oh, why did I do that?” It’s because I’m like, “Oh, I don’t…” It is a PDA thing. It’s about other people trying to determine my limitations for me.
You know me so well. Okay, yes. Yeah, that’s correct. Yeah, it’s other people saying, “You have to do this.”
Niyera (they/them):
Or, “You can’t do this.”
Jenn (she/they):
“You are like this,” or, “you can’t do this.” Exactly. Or, “Why didn’t you do this? I’m disappointed.” I’m like, “Well, where did that expectation of me even come from? You didn’t even tell me that.”
Chavonne (she/her):
Yeah, “How was I supposed to know what to do with that?” Yeah.
Jenn (she/they):
“You can’t be disappointed if you don’t share it with me. I mean, you can, but keep it away from me. I’m not involved.”
Chavonne (she/her):
Yeah. “Keep that shit away from me.”
Jenn (she/they):
That’s a really great point.
Chavonne (she/her):
Oh, I need to sit with that too. Yeah.
Jenn (she/they):
Oh. So I like that. Limitations, like knowing our limitations is about embodiment. Knowing our needs for rest is about embodiment. PDA, for me, has been and always will be about embodiment. Same with RSD, we’re talking about rejection sensitivity, because both of those… The sensations in my body, I know them so well. I know when I’m feeling sensitive to rejection. I know when I’m feeling that my autonomy is being threatened. It’s really quick to cue me, like you just did. I’m like, “Oh, yeah, that’s exactly what it is.”
I don’t have a secondary resisting. It’s something that I used to notice, I would resist it on another level. I would notice it and they’d be like, “No, I’m not dealing with that right now.” But when our energy is precious and when we’re trying to stay within our own bounds, so to speak, and when we’re playing around with what we want, need, desire, all those other sorts of things, it can sit in such a beautifully embodied space.
Earlier, dissociation as a form of embodiment, I thought that was beautiful. And also, disembodiment itself even further, just being like, “I am not going to have a body right now. Right now, my needs are that my body and I are not going to be one. I actually need some sort of separation within myself so that I can come back to that,” like from dysregulation or being so far outside the window of tolerance and dysregulation that you’re in hyperarousal or hypoarousal or something like that.
Yeah, it’s feeling even more sacred to me as we talk about this.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah. And something that’s coming up for me as you speak, you mentioned ableism in the beginning of this, but I think of people with chronic health illness or chronic pain, they have to spend a certain amount of their day dissociated because their body is not functioning in the way an optimal body, I guess, should, but I don’t know.
Jenn (she/they):
No, I love that!
Chavonne (she/her):
I liked it.
Jenn (she/they):
No, no, I love it. No! And you just made me-
Niyera (they/them):
Okay. The optimal thing, yeah.
Chavonne (she/her):
But I don’t know what other term we would use for it. It’s ideal. It’s optimal. I mean, I don’t have chronic pain. I have one autoimmune whatever, but I would use the word-
Jenn (she/they):
You do have chronic pain.
Chavonne (she/her):
… that I would like to feel optimal. You know? Yeah.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah. Yeah, like the way we want our bodies to be.
Jenn (she/they):
Yeah, it’s like the ideal, the standard, the opt-
Chavonne (she/her):
I would love for my body not to freak out in the cold, yeah. Yeah.
Jenn (she/they):
Yes, ideal, standard, optimized, perfect, normal. Even that word normal, I’m trying to move away from that and just stick more with human because I’m trying to normalize, but I’m not trying to determine for anyone else or even myself what is normal ahead of time.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah.
Jenn (she/they):
No, I really like that. And it’s like I’ve talked with Niyera before about sometimes I get derealized right, DPD or stuff, but I get derealized. It’s a form of dissociation and embodiment that my body doesn’t give me a choice about. It doesn’t happen to me very often anymore. It used to happen to me all the time, and I didn’t know what it was. I just woke up and my body feels fuzzy and foggy to me, like it had nothing to offer myself.
I have… It used to really scare me. I think it still scares me. It does still scare me. And also, that sacred part of it, my body’s trying to give me a message. It’s usually that I needed rest before that happened. It’s usually that I have pain that I’m trying to quell with medication instead of the rest, just actually resting.
So I think that’s, I don’t know, that’s another thing for me to think about because Chavonne and I were talking about in our recording of our first episode this season where we intro the season, we were talking about how we notice we shy away from the phrase disability for ourselves, and I’m trying to embrace that more. First, I really care about disability justice and centering it first, and every time I point that same sort of stance in my own direction, I hold more space for myself. I don’t resist the associated disembodied things that I actually genuinely need. So this feels important.
Chavonne (she/her):
Absolutely true. Yeah.
Niyera (they/them):
I mean, the first piece is self-awareness and acceptance, and then therefore you can then do the things of what you need to take care of a disabled body in that way.
Chavonne (she/her):
Oh.
Jenn (she/they):
Yes, acceptance is hard. And sometimes I think non-acceptance is really important. I am not a body that I am not. I do not accept optimization in reference to my body. I don’t accept the ideal and standard in reference to my body. It just hurts me. It doesn’t help me or support me.
Niyera (they/them):
That’s true.
Jenn (she/they):
That’s powerful. No, I really like that.
Chavonne (she/her):
Me too.
Jenn (she/they):
Yeah. I’m just going to check in with myself later about those. That feels important, and I really appreciate you naming PDA. It’s something we talked about a little bit last season when we were talking with our friends, Lisa and Fawn, just really talking about these states that we can get in as neurodivergent people that are physical in nature. I mean, everything mental is physical. Everything physical is mental. But really focusing on that and noticing that there can be pain associated with dysregulation and that we might need breaks from that too. So, I love that.
[42:55]
The next question we sort of answered already, it’s a two-part one, but really the second part we haven’t really gotten to yet. So the first part is how has work for you, Niyera, how has work supporting clients in private practice and running your own agency, which you are now, changed and challenged your own relationship with your embodiment? You already nodded to that. I guess I’m curious about the running-your-own-agency piece. And what learning and unlearning feels like it was only possible because of the space you hold for clients, patients, interns, supervisees, etc. and yourself in real time?
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah. Well, Chavonne knows this. We’ve been on the journey together, but I made the mistake-
Jenn (she/they):
Yes, I know you have.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yes. I would’ve closed down without you by now. Just me saying that out loud.
Niyera (they/them):
Same. Same.
Chavonne (she/her):
I try to sell my practice to Niyera at least once a month, and they won’t take it for $5.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah. Because we’re going to merge at some point.
Chavonne (she/her):
“I don’t want to do this anymore!” Yes, one day. “I don’t want to do this anymore. I want to sit on my couch.”
Niyera (they/them):
Oh, same.
Jenn (she/they):
It’s not easy work. It’s not easy work.
Chavonne (she/her):
It’s not. Sorry, go ahead.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah. I was going to say, every other week, I have the same thought, so.
Yeah, so I made the mistake of trying to start this while seeing a full caseload, and so I was not very embodied the first six months or so of that. And then, yeah, I was seeing 35 people a week. I torture myself. So don’t take that as the standard, everyone, if you’re listening. Never go over 20 to 25 a week. Even that is a lot.
Chavonne (she/her):
I love you had to add a, “To 25” on that, but go ahead.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know. Some people like 25. We’ll round it up that way.
So yeah, I think there was a big wake-up call when I started double-booking myself, and I haven’t explored my own neurodivergence or anything like that. But yeah, I have a lot of memory issues and I’m forgetting things a lot more. And then I’m away from the kids a lot, and I think I had this moment, and I texted you about it, Chavonne. I went to this open house in the evening at one point, and on my way home, I just started crying because I missed my kids. And I’m like… I was at work all day and then I wanted to go support this program. It’s a great program. They opened up a gender-affirming IOP for teenagers, so it was a great thing to go to and get to know. But on the way home, I was just like, “Why? I don’t want to do that. I don’t want to be away from my kids.”
My whole goal of opening this business was to have more time for my kids. And everyone says that when you open a business, they’re like, “It’ll be great. I work for myself. I make my own hours.” And it’s like we end up working 80-hour weeks, so we suck at that at least, imposing those.
So yeah, there was just that moment where I was just like, “I don’t want to do that.” And so yeah, I think that summer, I ended up cutting my caseload by half, and so I was seeing 20 to 25 a week at that point, and then supervising on top of it and everything else. And then, yeah, this last round, in the next two weeks, I’ll actually be down to five to seven clients a week.
Jenn (she/they):
Wow!
Chavonne (she/her):
Yes! I’m so proud.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah, yeah.
Chavonne (she/her):
So proud, yeah.
Niyera (they/them):
It takes so long for me to do these things. I cannot let go.
Chavonne (she/her):
But you did it. That’s what matters.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah.
Jenn (she/they):
Yeah! You should be really proud of that.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah. I hope I can sustain it. And so I think part of it was I am literally telling my interns and supervisees to be human, take their breaks, don’t schedule outside their working hours, all these things, and I’m not doing the same for myself. And so I think that, yeah, it’s really challenged me in that and it’s finally gotten me to a place of acceptance of humans are not meant to do this. We are meant to exist. That’s my purpose in life is to exist.
Jenn (she/they):
Yeah, to be a human being.
Niyera (they/them):
So yeah, I think that’s where I’m heading, hopefully, is to just exist and we have to make an income, and I don’t like being the one that skims off the top of people, but at the end of the day-
Chavonne (she/her):
You’re not skimming! Okay, sorry. I just felt the rising in my body. Oh!
Niyera (they/them):
No rage.
Chavonne (she/her):
I would not say that, but okay.
Jenn (she/they):
That’s how brain feels too. Yeah, passive income is like, “Oh my gosh, I’m just skimming off”-
Chavonne (she/her):
Really? You’re working 100 hours a week. That’s not passive. There’s nothing passive about it.
Niyera (they/them):
We’ll see. No.
Chavonne (she/her):
But go ahead. Sorry.
Jenn (she/they):
Well, you know, Niyera and I explore a lot of anti-capitalist themes together, and it would really bother me to be a landlord, for example. That would really bother me. I have not yet started my group practice because I have the same thought in my head. I need to work through it where it’s skimming off the top is how it feels to my body. My brain is like, “Passive income! Everything’s easier.” That’s what my brain says, but my body is like, “Oh, I don’t know. How can I do that in the most ethical way that doesn’t start to bother me?” It’s so challenging, right?
And so I’ll just admit right now, I’m avoiding it.
Niyera (they/them):
It’s hard.
Jenn (she/they):
Because it’s a hard thing for me to sit with, even in anticipation, not even having done it yet.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah, that’s true.
Chavonne (she/her):
And in my defending you without needing to defend you, I apologize. I’m owning my own privilege that I don’t take an income, so I don’t have to have those conversations. So I want to hold space for that instead of just being like, “You’re barking, blah, blah, blah.” I hold space for that, I really do.
Niyera (they/them):
But you deserve an income, but yes.
Jenn (she/they):
Yeah, I was going to say, “I think you deserve it.”
Chavonne (she/her):
Exactly.
Jenn (she/they):
It’s a difficult… I think this is so hard.
Niyera (they/them):
It’s tough.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yeah, yeah.
Jenn (she/they):
Talking about the culture that we live inside of and how it threatens our own embodied relationships with ourselves constantly is so important. And there’s only so much of these societal norms and optimizations, ideal, standards that we can go up against, right?
Niyera (they/them):
Yes.
Jenn (she/they):
My inner, fighting, accomplice activist spirit is like, “Let’s go against them all!” And also, as we’re discussing right now, I have limits. I can’t do it all. Sometimes I’m like, “I’m doing it one-on-one with clients. I’m doing it when I talk to their other providers.” I am doing it constantly, even though my heart is like, “Do it bigger,” but I have limits on money, time, being only one person, et cetera, et cetera.
So I think this is a really important space that you brought up to sit in, and what you said about we make our own schedules, it literally took me seven years into private practice to go, “I make my own schedule.”
Niyera (they/them):
Right? “Huh.”
Jenn (she/they):
And just get that that means I have control and that I can harness that for myself. It took me additional years to actually act it out, but it took me seven years to really get that because I used to avoid talking about my work in therapy. I used to totally avoid it.
Yeah, I mean, I’ve been therapized for decades, decades and decades, and I would avoid it because I’m like, “That’s not what I’m in therapy for. I’m in therapy for me,” so I wouldn’t allow space for my work to be me.
Chavonne (she/her):
Interesting, interesting.
Jenn (she/they):
Right? I don’t like the idea of branding. I’m me though. The name of my website is what my mom called me as a little kid. It’s my inner child. It’s like I am a human and I’m here to provide services, but why do I have to work on my work stuff? I was like, “Oh, that’s with supervisors,” but a supervisor told me about five years ago now, “That’s something you could bring into therapy, Jenn.” I was like, “Oh, am I being inappropriate?” They’re like, “Oh, no, we can talk about it, but I just mean that sounds like really deep work for you to be like, ‘I am in control of my schedule.'” Because I was like, “No, no, no. I have to meet the needs. I have to do this.”
I can cross things off a to-do list now. I used to never cross things off. I would just stay up until it was done. I’m in a totally different kind of place about that. Just giving a nod to all the past us-es where we would all do that kind of stuff. I would never do that now. I’d be like, “Sorry, I couldn’t get it done. Can I please see you next week?” I would just not make myself do it.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah, I think that’s an important point. I always joke that I’m the worst boss I’ve ever had. In other jobs where it’s nine to five and you get an hour lunch break and all that stuff, they try to enforce those and I don’t. And so I think that’s important to acknowledge. And as caring people, like you, Jenn, and Chavonne, everyone, being a business owner goes against everything that we’re aligned with.
Chavonne (she/her):
Everything.
Niyera (they/them):
And then so that’s the double-edged sword of like, “Yeah, I can squeeze someone in on my lunch break,” or, “yeah, I can do Saturday,” or, “yeah, I can do evening.” Those kinds of things. And then before you know it, you’re doing 10-hour days and you’re like, “How did I get here?”
Chavonne (she/her):
Yep, absolutely. And I wonder how much capitalism is telling us, “You don’t talk about this part of yourself in therapy because you don’t need to work on that.” You just work till you die. That’s not something we fix. You work on “you” in therapy, not the worker-bee you.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah. Because you’re not supposed to have this reaction to work. You’re just supposed to work. Right?
Chavonne (she/her):
Correct.
Niyera (they/them):
You’re not supposed to be… Or stress is normal also, right, in that sense too?
Chavonne (she/her):
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (she/they):
Mm-hmm.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah. And that’s why I’ve appreciated your relationship, Chavonne, is just because there’s no smoke and mirrors.
Chavonne (she/her):
None.
Niyera (they/them):
We talk about numbers, we just talk about this and that, and I’m just like, “What? Who did that?” I mean, obviously the CEOs did it and all the laws that they’re like, “You can’t talk about your salaries with each other,” but why? Why did we get there? Those kinds of questions.
Chavonne (she/her):
It’s been a real gift because I feel like there’s even, I’m trying not to go to my platform, which I’m going to for a quick second, but even the rules we’re not supposed to talk about how much we get from insurances with other people, that’s… I can’t remember if it’s fraud or whatever stupid term they use. It creates this competition that doesn’t need to exist. We’re all serving our community. We’re all serving different folks. If you want to know how much I’m paying this person here, here’s the letter that I wrote. Can you tell me what your PTO looks like?
And I think that’s been really… It was really scary to bring it up at first, but then I was just like… It’s such a relief. It’s so liberating to just be like, “Can you tell me if I’m being completely off? Like, just crazy?” I’m sorry. That’s an ableist word. Crazy doesn’t bother me, but it bothers other people. I think it’s because I have a pretty significant depression, so I’m like, “Sometimes I am.” But if I’m being completely inappropriate by saying this to my staff, it might being part of the problem, like, “How can I be more equitable in this?” So yeah, I think that’s been a real gift, for sure. Yeah.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah. I think that’s what we’ve been trying to do is how do we be business owners in capitalism and provide-
Chavonne (she/her):
Don’t lose your soul.
Niyera (they/them):
… and give people living wages? I have to actively remind myself, “I am not the CEO that takes a million-dollar bonus,” even though I don’t know why I feel that way, like, “Why do I feel like I’m a CEO that takes these…” I barely have enough to live. So it’s like, “Come on.”
Jenn (she/they):
Right, yeah.
Chavonne (she/her):
Right. And the neurodiversity of it, like the rejection sensitivity dysphoria that comes out. I sent this email that I took three weeks to write. I finally sent it. I got under my desk and cried. It was so hard because I was so afraid of what reactions would be.
Niyera (they/them):
Right?
Jenn (she/they):
I know, it was.
Chavonne (she/her):
It’s like if this is… I just don’t want to be a bad boss, so it’s just trying. We don’t want to be the bosses that we have had coming up and it’s an ongoing challenge and you will do wonderfully and you have support when you’re ready.
Jenn (she/they):
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Chavonne (she/her):
And if you don’t for a while-
Jenn (she/they):
I know. I’m just scared.
Chavonne (she/her):
… totally get that one too because this sucks.
Niyera (they/them):
It’s hard.
Chavonne (she/her):
I’m so tired. But when you’re ready, you’ll be ready. You’ll be great. You’ll absolutely be great.
Jenn (she/they):
Thank you. Thank you. And I think it’s so important what you both are saying, doing your best and navigating what you have the power to navigate, accepting things that you don’t really want to accept. I was kind of hearing that in there, accepting things that you’re like, “No, thank you. I would actually like to be in non-acceptance about this,” but acceptance is accepting both what is and what isn’t, which is a really, really hard thing about acceptance is it includes what’s not available in reality. That’s how realistic acceptance really can be, or at least that’s how I see it. And just hearing that, and you have to write hard letters. Sometimes we have to let clients go, which is the thing I swore I would never do.
Chavonne and I were at a workshop in 2021 and 2022 with Ample and Rooted, and I’m like, “Yeah, that’s right! We’ll never let anyone go!” Have I let people go since then? I have. It’s something that I’m like, “I will always give them access,” but it’s like I’m only one person and I would want that for anyone who works for me, that they get to maintain their agency and autonomy.
There’s two people in a therapeutic relationship. There’s multiple people. When you’re supervising and you have interns and you have employees. There’s multiple things there to consider. Balancing all of that shit is an impossible ask, so we’re all just going to be doing our best. That’s all we can really ask. It’s not going to be perfect. It’s going to feel like we make mistakes. It’s going to feel like we have to shift those mistakes. It’s going to feel like there’s human tension involved in the relationship. I would love to avoid conflict for the rest of my life.
And when I say, “I’m scared,” I also had a horrible health year in 2023. I was like, “I’m just not going to start it when I’m already feeling like shit.” So I will give myself that grace, right?
Chavonne (she/her):
Which is embodied, good for you.
Jenn (she/they):
Yes. I’m not just avoiding, I also was really trying to think hard about what I can do without taking things for myself I can’t get back. And I’m hearing you both saying that. It’s like sometimes we can’t undo it if it goes far enough, and so just being conscious… Self-awareness and insightfulness doesn’t always happen as a positive thing. Sometimes we have that because things have been so hard. We don’t have a choice about being aware and insightful. So I can hear you both giving yourself a chance to utilize them as tools to ask yourself hard questions, to find relatedness and relational qualities and just talking with each other about your agencies, et cetera. I think that’s so important.
I really respect that, and in fact find myself very inspired by that. We’re humans. We’re going to make mistakes. That includes at the business level, and our society says, “Don’t make mistakes at the business level. Have more earnings than last quarter, even if you have to fire the people doing the work so you literally can’t do it next quarter.” It doesn’t make logical sense, a lot of the stuff that happens, but you’re both talking about really personal agencies, businesses that you’re very intimately connected with. That’s also something… Niyera, you said, “I’m not a CEO taking a million-dollar bonus.” You’re also intimately involved in your business. There are many CEOs that are not intimately involved in their business. Right?
Niyera (they/them):
That’s true.
Jenn (she/they):
They’re just thought leaders, one of my least favorite fucking terms that ever existed on the planet.
Niyera (they/them):
I don’t even think I’ve heard of that before.
Jenn (she/they):
Because you self-appoint, you self-appoint. No one says, “You’re a leader.” It’s like people who are like, “I’m safe.” And I’m like, “Actually, it’s up to the other people to determine if you’re safe.”
Chavonne (she/her):
Right.
Niyera (they/them):
To determine that, yeah.
Jenn (she/they):
Right? So when people are like, “I’m a thought leader,” and I was like, “I don’t know if I’m led by your thoughts. I actually don’t know if that’s a thing.”
Niyera (they/them):
What does that mean?
Jenn (she/they):
It’s just people who go and give presentations on how successful their companies are, but they usually started them from the ground up, but now they have no involvement whatsoever, so just talking about the early days.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah, it looks good when you first start up.
Jenn (she/they):
Yeah, exactly.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yeah. But I really want to applaud that you had this realization, you were able to pivot from it. That’s a move. You could have been like, “This is hard. I’m just going to keep going and eventually it’ll even out,” and it won’t, so I’m really glad that you did. You listened to what you needed. That seems really embodied to me as well.
Jenn (she/they):
Yeah, absolutely.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah. I mean, yeah, it took me a long time in terms of actually enacting it.
Chavonne (she/her):
It’s hard!
Niyera (they/them):
It is.
Chavonne (she/her):
It’s hard. It’s so hard, yeah.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah, Chavonne knows. It took me four months to fire a person. I’m like, “It’s so hard.” [inaudible 00:56:18]
Jenn (she/they):
Oh, it would take me longer.
Chavonne (she/her):
It’s so hard though! Yeah.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah. And then my therapist is like, “Maybe it’ll take you 12 mistakes next time instead of 15.”
Chavonne (she/her):
There you go.
Niyera (they/them):
So it’s going to get shorter, hopefully.
Jenn (she/they):
Oh, I like that. I like that, yeah.
Niyera (they/them):
But yeah, it’s just… Yeah, it’s-
Chavonne (she/her):
But it’s because you care too, so it’s hard. It’s really, really hard.
Niyera (they/them):
I care. I want this to be sustainable. Everyone’s worried about their businesses ending, and I would be really sad, and there’s 15 people relying on me at this point for their income, but at the end of the day, if it happens, it happens. And it’s probably not going to be in my control. I imagine insurance coming and auditing. That’s not in my control in that sense because if they want to shut me down, they’re going to figure out something to shut me down for, regardless of how well I’ve kept my notes and stuff like that.
Jenn (she/they):
Dang, that’s a great point.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah, and so-
Chavonne (she/her):
That’s helpful because I made my tummy hurt when you said that.
Jenn (she/they):
Me too! I was like, “Oh!” My inner bits were like, “Oh.”
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah, yeah.
Jenn (she/they):
I got a little squirmy.
Chavonne (she/her):
Same. I don’t like that.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah, but I had to make the decision to not let it let me lose sleep at night basically. I can’t let this affect me. I can’t let the fear rule me in such a way that I’m operating from that because it’s like, yeah, we could make a cool run 10, 15 years, never get audited and we’ll be okay. Right?
Chavonne (she/her):
Ugh, knock on whatever.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah, knock on all the woods.
[1:00:47]
Chavonne (she/her):
I’m knocking on something. Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaking of other pivots, I wanted to know what have you found in your work and your personal life that we can learn and unlearn from each other surrounding the internalized ick, so the phobias and the isms, and maintaining, discovering, and remembering access to our own embodiment, humanity and beyond? That’s a Jenn question, 100%.
Jenn (she/they):
It is.
Niyera (they/them):
It really is.
Jenn (she/they):
One long, run-on question sentencing.
Chavonne (she/her):
It’s the best. It’s the best. I love it so much.
Jenn (she/they):
Thank you!
Niyera (they/them):
This is the one that I was a little nervous. I was like, “Hm, how did that answer this one?” I don’t know.
The one thing that came to mind as I was pondering these was categories feel… I don’t know if this is true or not because our brain is really good at categorizing what’s safe and what’s not, and all this stuff, but the social constructs of what we learned growing up of gender and race and all these things, and the implicit bias that comes with it. So the thing I was thinking of unlearning is categorization. Yes, keep your instincts of categorizing. That’s a black widow. Don’t touch it. That’s a daddy-longleg that you can touch. I don’t know if you can touch them, but yeah.
Jenn (she/they):
You can.
Niyera (they/them):
Don’t touch spiders in general, leave them alone.
Jenn (she/they):
I’m the one who touches spiders at my house, so I know which ones you can or can’t touch.
Niyera (they/them):
But in terms of humans, you don’t need to categorize. Maybe in the sense of let’s give them access. If we see someone in a wheelchair, maybe we need to help open a door, those kinds of things. But also, don’t look at someone with boobs and assume they’re a woman, or don’t look at someone with short hair and assume they’re a man. Those kinds of categories.
And so that’s the unlearning that I feel would be helpful because as we’re writing this book, Chavonne, I don’t know if-
Chavonne (she/her):
Talk more about that.
Niyera (they/them):
So yeah, we’re writing this book on reflective supervision, and Chavonne and I are writing different sections, but I’ve been tasked with the queer and trans section and how to supervise folks in those communities. And as I write those, it’s like I’m processing or I’m writing out the difference between gender identity and gender expression. And so someone can identify like me as non-binary, but dress really femme one day and really masc one day, and it can confuse the brain of what category do they fit in? And it’s like, but why does that matter? Why do we need to be aware of that? Those kinds of things.
I do want to acknowledge, most of the time, cis men feel dangerous to femme bodies and AFAB bodies and things like that, so maybe that’s some safety and categorizing. But in general, I don’t think that you need to categorize. And what we can learn-
Chavonne (she/her):
Oh, that’s powerful.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah, is just maybe treating everyone as human and just like what Jenn was saying earlier of normalizing everyone’s experience because we all experience things differently. I hate the DSM because it’s just like, “Depression is this, this, this, and this.” But it can come out in so many different ways depending on the person.
And so yeah, I diagnose people with stuff… I mean, we have to, I don’t want to, but when I have to, I will diagnose people with stuff and talk to them about it and they’ll be like, “Oh my gosh, I didn’t know that was XYZ.” And I’m like, “It’s because it presents this way for you,” and talking about their experience around it versus like, “Oh, yeah. Here’s the criteria you met, blah, blah, blah, blah,” that kind of stuff.
Jenn (she/they):
So unlabeling reminds me of unmasking, and also they feel very related because often we don’t… Label is like… I don’t have them right now, but I have these colored lenses. Rose-colored glasses is sort of a negative phrase I guess, but it’s literally a rainbow of glasses. I have bi… Now I can’t remember what I have. I have, oh, bifocal vision disorder? BVD. But anyway, I see things with a certain skew to them.
Chavonne (she/her):
I’ve never heard of that.
Jenn (she/they):
And so I’ve used… Well, you have to see an ophthalmologist who’s also a neurologist. We have one of those in Albuquerque, so we can go see them.
Chavonne (she/her):
Interesting.
Niyera (they/them):
Oh, with the shortage, who would’ve thought?
Chavonne (she/her):
I know, right?
Jenn (she/they):
Yeah. And so they’re incredible. So I have diabetes, so my eyes are covered by medical insurance, but for this particular thing, I still have to have vision insurance for this, but you can get these prism lenses that really help with that. But anyway, that’s why I have all these lenses.
But I like playing with them, asking people or myself, “How do you feel about this label?” Just like in an unmasking experience, “Well, how do you genuinely feel about that? What if this is a non-judgmental space and you can say how you really feel, not what you expect me to want you to say or anything like that?” I was kind of hearing it in that context.
And so sometimes I put on blue glasses and I’m like, “Okay, what are these?” Or I put on green ones just as a visual experiment in exploring, and sometimes I have clients who’ve even gotten a pack of these rainbow lenses. I’ll throw the purple one, and they’re like, “That label’s not for me.” And I’m like, “Okay.” It’s a way of unlearning what the fat, medical, and wellness industrial complexes inside of capitalism have pushed on us as the labels that we should go by.
And my PDA part right now is a little active in myself since we already nodded to it earlier. I can feel it again where it’s like, “Don’t label me.” I have a parent who is a labeler who was like, “You are this, this, this, and this.” And I’m like, “I’m zero of these things. Thank you very much, but zero of those apply.” There’s a real embodiment in ripping off labels that other people put on you. So I love that idea of unlearning labels.
Chavonne (she/her):
Oh, I like that.
Jenn (she/they):
And pathologizing or otherwise clinical terms, that’s something we often engage in when we are curious about people’s actual experiences. Someone will say, “I have pre-diabetes.” Like, “Do you know that that’s actually called a dubious diagnosis?” And they’re like, “What?” I’m like, “Should we look at an article together?” I’m like, “It’s just a label for insurance purposes. It used to be called something else. Does it actually have meaning for you? That’s something so your doctor can charge to the insurance, but how do you feel about that? If it’s something we only have as a purpose for something other than your wellbeing, how do you now feel about it? You don’t have to maintain that label.”
I was just really resonating with that. It’s one of my favorite things about having a private practice because you can determine what kind of clients you see and conversations you might have like that. I always ask clients permission, but just being like, “Do you want to hear about that?”
Niyera (they/them):
Yes.
Jenn (she/they):
I love that.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah, yeah. And you bring up a good point, Jenn, of I know some people who find the labels and they think it’s empowering like, “I found community, I found people who were similar experiences with me,” in that sense. But when we put labels on others, that’s when it is sticky. Unless you talk to them and you see what their label is and agree with them in that way. But yeah, that’s what I mean by we can unlearn the categorizing of others. Yeah.
Jenn (she/they):
Yes, and that nod to the DSM-5, “Oh, I am not seven bullet points that a bunch of white men wrote.” I don’t know how long ago now.
Chavonne (she/her):
100 years, yeah.
Jenn (she/they):
Or they just did a recent little mini-update.
Chavonne (she/her):
The TR.
Jenn (she/they):
I just looked again at the panel and I’m like, “None of you know who I am. None of you… I don’t relate to any of you, your experiences, the places you’ve been. You don’t know what’s happening inside of me.” That’s a really important thing. That’s one of my favorite things to unlearn is those specific labels.
And some of them, some people don’t want to diagnose. People are scared to diagnose borderline, and so people live without labels when they really would like the label to be able to relate to themselves in different ways. So I can really see that being harnessed in our agency and autonomy as the most important place for that. And as clinicians where we can have power over other people for us to unlearn that it’s a mandate to label, that we have to get that. In paperwork, I have to write what I have to write and conversationally, we don’t have to do that. And I usually say, “I have to write this. I want you to know if you ask for this note, you’re going to see me write this. And it’s really up to you and I in conversation. This is just what’s written for insurance purposes,” or whatever the purpose is.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah, yeah. I ask if people want a diagnosis and they talk to me about it, they’re like, “I want to know what it is,” I always ask if they want it in their chart, and that might be fraud, so I don’t know, in that way. But the reason why-
Chavonne (she/her):
I’m like, “Meh.” We talk about this, yeah.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah, is because of the stigma with some of them.
Chavonne (she/her):
Exactly.
Niyera (they/them):
And so autism, for example, I think that’s a great diagnosis in the terms of it gets access. It can give you accommodations. It’s like there’s no harm in even self-diagnosing it because you just learn skills around how to cope and manage in this not-neurodivergent world. Right? Whereas if I put it in your chart and then you go to, I don’t remember what country it was, New Zealand or something-
Jenn (she/they):
New Zealand!
Niyera (they/them):
You can’t go and visit or live there because you have this diagnosis, and so there’s this heavy stigma in some countries around it.
Chavonne (she/her):
Whoa!
Jenn (she/they):
New Zealand also has a BMI requirement for going to New Zealand.
Niyera (they/them):
What the…
Chavonne (she/her):
Well, fuck all of that.
Jenn (she/they):
New Zealand, I was like, “Wow, I didn’t know New Zealand was a problem country.” I just didn’t know!
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah. I’m like, “They got rid of all their guns. They were pretty cool.”
Chavonne (she/her):
I just thought it was pretty and I was going to go. Yeah, I just wanted to go see all of the Lord of the Rings stuff.
Niyera (they/them):
The Lord of the Rings? Me too. Go to the tour.
Jenn (she/they):
I don’t know what it is. I just know that they have one.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah, that’s so interesting. But yeah, so-
Jenn (she/they):
Well, and also in this country, you might not be able to consent to your own surgery if you have a particularly eugenicist organization that the surgeon is part of who says they can make a choice for you.
Niyera (they/them):
Oh, that’s true.
Jenn (she/they):
We still have laws on the books at a national level that they can take away your right to have… I mean, it would be a specific place. They can’t take it away-
Niyera (they/them):
Everywhere.
Jenn (she/they):
… but they can really put up a lot of roadblocks.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah, and even with gender-affirming care, I will let people know that, “If I give you this gender dysphoria or identity disorder, insurance companies will have access to this. Your employers might get access to this if your insurance is through your employers,” things like that. It could come back. Teenagers who come to me, I’m like, “It’s going to come back to your parents. Do you want it? Are you ready to be out,” basically is kind of [inaudible 01:08:48] in that way.
And so I always ask people, and if they don’t want it in there, I will defer to the lighter diagnosis that fits them, usually adjustment disorder, things like that. But yeah, I try to be very mindful of that, whereas other clinicians are probably just slapping on, like, “Doop.”
Chavonne (she/her):
Don’t care at all, yeah.
Jenn (she/they):
And it’s so important.
Chavonne (she/her):
“It’s fine.”
Jenn (she/they):
I have adjustment disorder on my paperwork because of what I did not want on my paperwork. It was really valuable to me that my psychiatrist was willing to have that conversation with me, like, “Just so you know. While we did this ADHD screen, we noticed a bunch of other things. Do you want them on your paperwork?” I’m like listing them up. I’m like, “No, we’ll just put adjustment, adjustment disorder.”
Niyera (they/them):
“No, thank you.”
Chavonne (she/her):
“Let’s not do that.” Yeah, yeah.
Jenn (she/they):
Yeah, right? “I haven’t known you long enough. We’ll just do adjustment disorder.” But they’ve been my… It’s still on my chart all these years later because insurance is carceral, the entire complex of the medical industrial complex, so carceral. Their ability to take away our rights for 72 hours and other periods of time, but also how these diagnosis can also eventually lead to mandated incarceration on a mental health level. It is not necessarily impossible at this point. In fact, we’re in a really scary period of time where I’m like, “How close are we to that?” So that has a lot of value too.
I appreciate that you do that, and it just makes sense to me that you’re caring for someone’s wellbeing and you give them choices about their wellbeing. That just makes sense to me.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah. I really had to unlearn that piece too, coming in with my own agenda. I feel like school does that for you as a clinician or therapist, and then I’m sure in any helpy profession really. And then being in the field, I think, yeah, private practice was where I was like, “Oh, I can do this on paper and do it for the insurance companies. What happens in the room is totally different or could be totally different.”
Chavonne (she/her):
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Is totally different.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
[1:13:50]
Jenn (she/they):
Yes, absolutely. So thank you so much, Niyera, for being here with us. We always ask this question. We like to know what do you think we can all do to make a difference with what we’ve learned, heard, unlearned today? No pressure.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah. Just go out and be a totally different person. No, just kidding.
Chavonne (she/her):
That’s great.
Niyera (they/them):
I don’t know. I think just I don’t… Yeah, change doesn’t happen overnight so I would just challenge people to just take note maybe when you’re categorizing someone or putting a label on someone, those kinds of situations, and check in with yourself around your dissociation, your presence, things like that, and how are we talking to ourselves about it?
A lot of these words, I’ve been trying to destigmatize them in my own brain because a lot of them have negative connotations. But yeah, dissociation, maybe if you get down on yourself for dissociating a lot in your life, try and check in and see maybe what is it trying to tell you, first of all? And second, yeah, is it helping you in that moment? And trying to reframe that for yourself and take that negative connotation away because I don’t think it’s inherently a negative thing. I think it can be scary, and I think it can be hard to deal with if you don’t have the skills to ground and be present and things like that, but yeah, it’s there for a reason.
I have a cat joining me.
Jenn (she/they):
Oh, hello. Is that a tuxedo? You’re almost a tuxedo. Oh.
Chavonne (she/her):
Oh, what a baby! I like that face. Oh, that face.
Jenn (she/they):
Oh, love a squishy cat face.
Chavonne (she/her):
I love a squishy cat face.
Niyera (they/them):
She’s my senior.
Chavonne (she/her):
Oh, I love a senior cat too.
Jenn (she/they):
I know! They’re so, so…
Chavonne (she/her):
I love senior pets, period. They’re just the sweetest and they move at my speed.
Jenn (she/they):
Yes. Yes, they do. Otherwise, you have to keep up with them. That’s a good point.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yeah, yeah. That’s really sweet.
Jenn (she/they):
I love that. I love how you started that by saying, “It takes time for change to happen,” just already giving a permission and a reminder that you don’t have to listen to an episode of a podcast. It’d be like, “Oh, and I’m a whole new person. Off I go!”
Chavonne (she/her):
“Solved.”
Niyera (they/them):
“I’m embodied 100% of the time. I’m not labeling anyone.”
Jenn (she/they):
Right?
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah.
Jenn (she/they):
Also, sometimes when we hear things that sound joyful at the time, sometimes they land in a more challenging place later. So I also really loved the permission to just give ourselves space around things that can feel negative because we don’t feel that we’ve lived up to some kind of standard. I love that so much. Go easy on yourself. Take your time, check in with yourself, check out when needed, check back in when needed.
Chavonne (she/her):
Oh, I love that. I love that.
Jenn (she/they):
It feels so generous.
Chavonne (she/her):
Absolutely. So generous. I need to remind myself of that.
Niyera (they/them):
I’m all about giving space.
Chavonne (she/her):
It’s the best.
Niyera (they/them):
You don’t have to do it today. Just notice it. Right? Just notice.
Jenn (she/they):
You know, that’s a good point. Niyera, you give me so much permission, I’ll be like, “Yeah, yeah, that’s what I’m going to do.” And you’re like, “And if you don’t, that’s okay too.”
Chavonne (she/her):
And you’re like, “Oh.”
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah, just remember…
Jenn (she/they):
And I’m like, “Oh, that hadn’t occurred to me.” It doesn’t occur to my brain. I’m just on.
Niyera (they/them):
It’s just the winning in therapy. I’ve had so many clients that, “I have to do it because my therapist, I’m going to let them down,” all that stuff. I’m like, “You could never let me down.”
Jenn (she/they):
Oh, see, it feels like I’m going to let myself down.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah, there you go.
Jenn (she/they):
If I don’t do the homework, I’m not getting the most out of therapy, so I’m going to let myself down and actually the permission to not do the homework, permission I would never give myself. In literal school situations, I’ve never given myself that permission. To practice that, it’s been really meaningful for me.
I still feel like I’m at the practice stage actually. I’ll be like, “Oh, that’s a good idea that they had. I guess I could opt-out, but I am going to do it.” It hasn’t gotten that far in my mind yet. And also, I try it every time, like, “What if I rest? What if, between client sessions, I’m not putting things away in my house?” Rest in general.
Chavonne (she/her):
Oh.
Niyera (they/them):
There you go.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yes. That’s a good one.
Niyera (they/them):
And I think something could come out of that too. I had a homework assignment from my own therapist the other week and I didn’t do it, and then I explored it and I was like… Oh, it was like write a letter to my teenage self or something like that. And then I realized my mom came back from Egypt the week I was going to do it, and I was like, “Nope. Can’t even access my teenage self right now. Got to put that person away.” And so recognizing there could be something there as to why you’re avoiding it too, and that is telling and could be explored as well.
Chavonne (she/her):
That is very, I was going to say permissive, but we try not to use that word that much, but it’s a reminder. It’s a reminder, yeah.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah, a nice invitation, a reminder. Yeah.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yeah, it’s a a nice invitation.
Jenn (she/they):
Oh, I love invitations! Life is still happening and therapy is a place for experimentation and practice, and the first time things come out of your mouth and the first time you’ve thought of stuff, there’s so many firsts in there that to be able to not have that pressure, that’s really impactful.
Chavonne (she/her):
It really is.
Jenn (she/they):
Because in my head I’m like, “Oh, I always win in therapy. I always do my homework. I love homework,” but what if there isn’t a game to win?
Chavonne (she/her):
That’d be healthy.
Jenn (she/they):
What if I don’t have to play any kind of game? What if… Or if there’s an idea? And also, at the same time, I love to try an idea so I won’t keep myself or sometimes I’m like, “Not today, not this week.”
Chavonne (she/her):
“No, not doing that.”
Jenn (she/they):
And I never used to give that space before and it was draining. It was way beyond my limitations when I was doing it anyway, so I love that. That is who I see you as as a therapist, as someone who’s like, “Here’s a little nugget, take it or leave it. See you next week.” It’s such an important casual-
Chavonne (she/her):
I love that.
Jenn (she/they):
… transparent, authentic space. Coming back to some of the words you were talking about at the beginning about embodiment, you’re like, “Jenn, I’m not the boss of you. Here’s just some nuggets.” And I’m like, “Oh, you’re not the boss of me?”
Chavonne (she/her):
“Are you sure?”
Jenn (she/they):
“But I totally came to you for you to be the boss of me. Are you sure?”
Niyera (they/them):
“To be bossed around,” yeah.
Jenn (she/they):
“Are you sure?” I started therapy at 13, so my initial therapy that I’ve talked about a lot on this podcast was really, really harmful to me, and Niyera and I have talked about that too. I had to unlearn a lot of therapy things. So just to have space to be like… And sometimes, I’ve never had this thought ever, but I’m just realizing that this can have space to be like, “I don’t think that’s in my best interest. I don’t think that’s a good idea.” Just the space to be able to say that, to have that kind of discernment, and nod to Chavonne and I’s, one of our favorite words, like, “It’s okay.” Why can’t we practice that too?
Chavonne (she/her):
Absolutely.
Jenn (she/they):
Okay. I love that.
Chavonne (she/her):
Oh, I’m going to sit with that for the rest of the day.
Jenn (she/they):
Definitely.
Chavonne (she/her):
Definitely. Definitely. Thank you so much.
Jenn (she/they):
I’ll sit with it until I see you, Niyera.
Niyera (they/them):
In like an hour?
Chavonne (she/her):
In like an hour and a half? [inaudible 01:18:10]
Niyera (they/them):
I was wondering. I’m like, “Well, she can, I don’t know. We’ll see or maybe we’ll just sit and process the whole time.”
Chavonne (she/her):
All Niyera, all the time!
Jenn (she/they):
Oh, don’t worry. I have a whole session’s worth of stuff.
Niyera (they/them):
Okay.
Jenn (she/they):
I always do, huh? I fill up time.
Chavonne (she/her):
I love it, I love it.
Jenn (she/they):
That’s not a problem for me.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah.
Chavonne (she/her):
Fantastic. Fantastic.
Jenn (she/they):
Not a problem.
Chavonne (she/her):
Love it. Thank you so much for being here with us today. It’s been so great to have you on.
Jenn (she/they):
Yes, yes! Love it. Yay!
[1:21:29]
Chavonne (she/her):
As we finish up this episode today, what would you like everyone listening to know about what you’re up to and how they can find you? What direction do you see your career and/or work taking in the future?
Jenn (she/they):
Oh, you found it too. Sorry, we noticed I didn’t change some things from when we had two people in an interview. I’ve been correcting them slyly while we’ve been talking.
Niyera (they/them):
As you go.
Chavonne (she/her):
That was great.
Jenn (she/they):
We didn’t do that one. Sorry.
Chavonne (she/her):
That’s great.
Niyera (they/them):
No worries. So yeah, I am the clinical director and founder of You, Me and Therapy in Albuquerque, New Mexico, so check us out. We’re going to do a lot of groups in the future in the next couple weeks, including a DND therapeutic group, which I’m super excited about. So yeah, if y’all… Yeah, it’s just youmeandtherapy.com if you want to check us out or if you need therapy, we have a ton of great clinicians and interns and all that fun stuff.
As for me, as I step away from client care, not totally, but for the most part, I will be supervising and as well as going into the legislative world. I really want to make an impact in the community and I just think there’s a lot of laws that are very harmful and outdated and are not for our modern world. So I really hope to start doing some lobbying for New Mexico as long as I’m here.
Jenn (she/they):
That’s awesome.
Niyera (they/them):
And get us maybe to the gold standard of where we need mental health to be really because that would be great. Yeah.
Chavonne (she/her):
That could be your second book.
Niyera (they/them):
Oh!
Chavonne (she/her):
Sorry.
Niyera (they/them):
As I rewrite my fantasy novel instead of our book the whole time.
Chavonne (she/her):
I love that. Yeah. I just read books instead of writing. It’s fine.
Niyera (they/them):
Exactly.
Chavonne (she/her):
I’m like, “Oh, let’s read this mystery.”
Jenn (she/they):
Well, in my house, we’re always writing books. My partner writes sci-fi.
Niyera (they/them):
Oh, nice.
Jenn (she/they):
At least once a week, I hear a new idea, and I don’t know, I write lots of books.
Chavonne (she/her):
In my head.
Jenn (she/they):
I don’t even know if I can pick one.
Niyera (they/them):
We’ll have to collab some time.
Jenn (she/they):
I literally write it out. I can’t-
Chavonne (she/her):
Really? You should send them. Sorry.
Jenn (she/they):
I used to contain it in my head.
Chavonne (she/her):
Send it.
Jenn (she/they):
And now I’m like, “I need to just write these things out.” It makes me have such a sense of peace.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah. Someone mentioned if you were brought up in isolated or traumatic childhood where you couldn’t be yourself, sometimes your imagination is really expansive and that was mine. From the time I could write, I had notebook stacks of just fantasy stuff.
Jenn (she/they):
Me too.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yeah, same. I wrote a lot, yeah. Sorry. And then what else are you going to be to? Sorry, we just went on a tangent.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah, that’s it, I think. I hope that’s it. Yeah, doing that. And also, I think with the space-
Jenn (she/they):
And you and Chavonne are writing a book.
Niyera (they/them):
Yes. We’re writing a book on reflective supervision, which is a really cool model of being human and letting the supervisee being human in the room and supporting them, which is not the model I experienced or most people experience.
Chavonne (she/her):
Same.
Niyera (they/them):
Even my interns are like, “I had a terrible first practicum,” and I’m just like, “Oh, you’re just a baby in the field. You shouldn’t have a terrible experience.”
Chavonne (she/her):
I know, I know. Exactly. Absolutely, absolutely.
Jenn (she/they):
Wow.
Niyera (they/them):
But other than that, I hope the space just gives me more time for community and friends and family.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yeah. Awesome.
Jenn (she/they):
I love that for you, and the human that you are.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yes.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah.
Chavonne (she/her):
Thank you. This has been such a delight. Truly such a delight.
Niyera (they/them):
Thank you for inviting me. Yeah, I really appreciate it.
Jenn (she/they):
Thank you for saying yes.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yes! That was exciting to.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah. I’m always like, “Why am I that cool? I don’t think I’m cool.”
Jenn (she/they):
You are that cool. That’s exactly right.
Chavonne (she/her):
You are that cool. Are you kidding me? You’re absolutely that cool. I have an intern who was like-
Niyera (they/them):
Oh my God.
Chavonne (she/her):
… who started a few weeks ago, and Niyera came to our open house and she was like, “Is this the Niyera that you talk about?”
Niyera (they/them):
Apparently I’m famous in some circles without even meaning to be.
Chavonne (she/her):
Well, one of my other interns was Niyera’s first. So this intern and I are just like, “Niyera this, Niyera that, da, da, da, da.” My intern’s like, “Who is this magical person?”
Jenn (she/they):
I mean, we do live in “Smalbuquerque.” You can’t really get around all of us knowing each other.
Chavonne (she/her):
It’s so small here. Oh my God. It’s so small here. It’s ridiculous, yeah. I’m sure-
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah. I’m probably only Niyera in New Mexico as well.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yeah. It’s not a name I had heard before. That is true. It’s lovely though.
Jenn (she/they):
I know. It is lovely.
Chavonne (she/her):
Very.
Jenn (she/they):
And I noticed, Chavonne, that you call Niyera, “Niya.” Is that right?
Chavonne (she/her):
Because I get to be called… I’m a friend now, so I get to say, “Niya.” I got friend status.
Niyera (they/them):
Niyera’s like a protectional name.
Chavonne (she/her):
That’s what a friend of yours told me. So I was like, “Okay!”
Niyera (they/them):
“Yes!”
Jenn (she/they):
You’re like, “Mine. Thank you so much.” Yeah.
Chavonne (she/her):
“Mine, mine.” Basically.
Jenn (she/they):
Oh, I love that.
Chavonne (she/her):
Like Jenn, I also just, if I know it’s a good person, I’m just like, “And you’re in my life forever. Here’s all the orbits.”
Jenn (she/they):
Yep. Yep, Let’s connect. Yeah.
Niyera (they/them):
I love it, yeah.
Chavonne (she/her):
All the connections, all of them. Thank you so much. This has been lovely.
Jenn (she/they):
Thank you! This was really lovely. And you have this really beautiful ability to say something in a sentence that would take me 50 sentences, so I have a feeling that I’m going to go… I always, I’m like, “Oh my gosh. Yes, yes. The what?” What did you say to me in therapy last week? What was it? Oh, “Panic is the highest form of dysregulation.” I was like, “What? Excuse me?” And I’m like, “Wait, that makes everything make sense.” I’m like, “Oh, it’s nonspecific. Anxiety is specific in these usual ways that we differentiate those.” But I was like, “Oh my gosh, I’m so dysregulated.”
So there were so many of those today. Right? That’s what I mean by, “Nuggets.” You’re like, “Here’s a sentence.” And I’m like, “Oh! Since when?”
Chavonne (she/her):
Yeah, yeah.
Jenn (she/they):
It’s a beautiful quality.
Chavonne (she/her):
I love it, I do.
Jenn (she/they):
I think it’s just who you are.
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah. I really love it when my clients come back and like, “I thought about what you said all week,” and I’m like, “Oh, okay.”
Chavonne (she/her):
It’s like, “Oh, what did I say?” That’s me all the time.
Niyera (they/them):
“What came up?” Yeah.
Chavonne (she/her):
“What did I actually say in our meeting?”
Niyera (they/them):
Yeah. It’s great.
Jenn (she/they):
Aw, I think about you every day.
Niyera (they/them):
Aw.
Chavonne (she/her):
Aw!
Jenn (she/they):
I do.
Niyera (they/them):
I appreciate that.
Chavonne (she/her):
That’s so sweet.
Jenn (she/they):
Yeah. And so I’ll think about you until our session later today.
Okay. This was incredible.
Chavonne (she/her):
Lovely.
Jenn (she/they):
Thank you.
Chavonne (she/her):
Wonderful. Absolutely wonderful.
Jenn (she/they):
Thank you so much. I’m just tickled. I’m so glad you were here. What a great time together, too.
Chavonne (she/her):
Absolutely.
Jenn (she/they):
Thank you!
Chavonne (she/her):
Yeah, thank you.
Niyera (they/them):
Thank you!
Chavonne: Thank you for listening to Season 4 of the Embodiment for the Rest of Us podcast. Episodes will be published the first Thursday of every month-ish (in case we need some wiggle room) wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also find all podcast content (including the transcript and show notes) at our website, EmbodimentForTheRestOfUs.com.
Jenn: And follow us on social media, on both Twitter @EmbodimentUs and on Instagram @EmbodimentForTheRestOfUs. We look forward to continuing this evolving and expanding conversation in our next episode.