Season 4 Episode 2 Tiana Dodson | Embodiment for the Rest of Us

Jenn: Welcome to our 4th season of the Embodiment for the Rest of Us podcast, a series exploring topics and intersections that exist in fat, queer, and disability liberation (and beyond!!)! You can consider this an anti-oppressive and generative space full of repair and intention.

Chavonne: In this podcast, we interview those with lived experience and professionals alike to learn how they are affecting radical change and how we can all make this world a safer and more welcoming place for all humans who are historically and currently marginalized and should be centered, listened to, and supported.

Jenn: Captions and content warnings are provided in the show notes for each episode, including specific time stamps, so that you can skip triggering content any time that feels supportive to you! This podcast is a representation of our co-host and guest experiences and may not be reflective of yours. These conversations are not medical advice, and are not a substitute for mental health or nutrition support.

Chavonne: In addition, the conversations held here are not exhaustive in their scope or levels of inquiry. These topics, these perspectives are not complete and are always in process. These are just highlights! Just like posts on social media, individual articles, or any other podcast – this is just a snapshot of the full picture.

Jenn: We are always interested in any feedback on this process, especially if you feel something needs to be addressed. We invite you to email us at Listener@EmbodimentForTheRestOfUs.com with any comments, requests, or concerns.

[1:46]

(C): Happy March and welcome to Episode 2, season 4 of the Embodiment for the Rest of Us podcast. In today’s episode, we interviewed the insightful and hilarious Tiana Dodson (she/her) in a deep dive that follows up from our Season 1 interview about her embodiment journey in 2021.

(J): Tiana Dodson is a fat, Body Liberation Coach and Facilitator who’s out to destroy the belief that you have to be skinny to be happy and healthy, loveable, or worthy. Through her work with the Fat Freedom programs, she guides people feminine-of-center to reconnect with their bodies, destigmatize fatness, and learn about the harms of health being a measure of worth… all while finding how they can live their best fat lives.

(C): Tiana can be found on Instagram @IAmTianaDodson and on Facebook @TianaTheCoach. The Fat Freedom Foundation, an introductory support community for body liberation can be found at https://pages.tianadodson.com/ffgroupread. Fat Freedom Moments, a text message subscription service for a moment of Body Liberation in a Day Full of Diet Culture Nonsense can be found at https://tianadodson.com/ffmoments

(J): Wherever and however you are listening to this today, you are in for an incredibly poignant conversation that is equal parts thoughtful and delightful. We are so honored to have you join us in this conversation!

[3:10]

Chavonne (she/her):

Our first interview of our fourth season of the podcast is upon us. Today we have our first deep dive of the season with Tiana Dodson (she/her) who’s joining us from Germany.

We had such a great time learning and unlearning with you in our very first season. We had to have you back for a deeper dive. Let’s get started.

How are you today and how you’ve been since, goodness, 2021, Tiana?

Jenn (she/they):

Oh, has it been so long? I know now.

Tiana (she/her):

Oh my gosh. Okay, so that’s like a hellaciously loaded question and oh my God, I’m so happy to be back.

Jenn (she/they):

Yes, we’re excited you’re here.

Chavonne (she/her):

Oh, my gosh.

Tiana (she/her):

2021 was like three decades ago.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah.

Chavonne (she/her):

January was a whole decade ago. That’s what I was talking about earlier today.

Tiana (she/her):

What is time?

Chavonne (she/her):

I don’t know.

Tiana (she/her):

So today, I’m for the most part okay, or at least as okay as you can be in the midst of multiple genocides happening in the world and the fact that we get to witness them, sadly. So just got to pull that out of the box right off the gate.

Jenn (she/they):

I mean, it is everywhere.

Tiana (she/her):

It’s everywhere. It is literally everywhere.

Jenn (she/they):

If you’re paying attention, it’s everywhere.

Tiana (she/her):

Exactly. If you’re paying attention. Some of them are more outwardly visible and overtly violent than others. But oh God, they’re everywhere.

So yeah, amidst that for the most part, okay. So how have I been since 2021? Struggling. We’ll just say struggling. That’s the big word because that’s the most true.

I’ve had an international move since then, so I moved from France back to Germany, but I’m now in a different part of Germany than I was before. And oh boy, is it a different part of Germany.

But yeah, and the biggest thing that happened that made the move challenging is the fact that my little is no longer so little anymore.

So my small monster, when we moved from Germany to France the first time was just about to turn three. And so for small monster, it was kind of like, “Oh, I’m just in a different place,” and keeping it moving, right? Because also my kid is really quite a real chill kid.

However, he was six when we moved this last time. And he was just finishing up first grade and he had made a friend, somebody who he actually started calling best friend, and we had rip him away from that.

Jenn (she/they):

Oh, that’s so tough.

Tiana (she/her):

It was really tough. And like so many transitions just in general from moving from France to Germany, but having to manage my own stuff, plus also the really turbulent stuff of a 6-year-old, that was really hard.

Jenn (she/they):

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. My oldest nibbling is that age right now. It is an all encompassing experience.

Tiana (she/her):

Not much.

Jenn (she/they):

And it’s pure love sometimes. And sometimes it’s pure chaos and other sorts of iterations.

Tiana (she/her):

At the same time often.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah. Yeah. Equally.

[7:06]

Chavonne (she/her):

Well, that’s so interesting that you brought up your kid on this move. Something that really struck me in our last conversation, not just the nuances of embodiment from our last conversation. It was also about the complexities of embodiment for children.

And I don’t know if you remember, Tiana, but you were like, “I want to mark this for later. We could have a whole podcast about this.” I was like, “Marked.” Right?

And it was specifically how kiddos are embodiment teachers, and that was really resonating. How has that topic sat with you, felt for you and expanded for you?

Tiana (she/her):

This is a great question.

Chavonne (she/her):

In the last three years, goodness.

Tiana (she/her):

In the last three years. I know. So it’s funny because as you’re saying that to me, I was like, “Oh my, sometimes I say smart things.”

Jenn (she/they):

You say smart things many times.

Tiana (she/her):

Thank you. But yeah, so it’s challenging, right? Being a parent just in general is challenging and then being a gestational parent is challenging in so many different ways and heavier ways on top of that.

Oh my goodness. But basically one of the things that I have found, my kid is eight now. Being a parent forces you to go through all of your shit, all of it. Shit you knew you had, and then you uncover shit you had no idea was there.

Chavonne (she/her):

And shit you thought you were done with and you clearly were not.

Jenn (she/they):

Mm-mm. Mm-hmm.

Chavonne (she/her):

Yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

Oh yeah. I mean, I can’t even tell you how many times I’ve had to walk away from the dinner table, just walk away. I was like, “Okay, I can’t hold my face neutral in this situation. And also I have nothing. I’m not going to do any good right here.”

So we’re just going to walk away. We’re just going to walk away. We’re going to go sit down in the bedroom and have our feelings and maybe we’ll come back, maybe have fixed our face.

Jenn (she/they):

Mm-hmm. I think that’s such an important point, right? Part of this embodiment around kiddos is they read our faces so accurately. It’s incredible and infuriating.

Tiana (she/her):

Yes. Yeah.

Chavonne (she/her):

They really do. They don’t even ask what’s up. They already know what’s up.

Tiana (she/her):

Oh, they do. The fun part is now my kid can read, so we can’t even text a conversation because little dude over my shoulders is going, “Oh, I wasn’t finished reading that text.” “That wasn’t for you. Could you not be this smart right now? Thanks.”

Chavonne (she/her):

Oh my God.

Tiana (she/her):

You can’t leave the computer on. You have to lock the screen if you have to walk away to go pee or refill your cup. You come back to a child who’s like, “What does that word mean?” It’s like, “Oh, okay. I wasn’t ready to talk about that today.”

Jenn (she/they):

Oh, no.

Tiana (she/her):

Guess we are. Guess we are. So I mean, it just, children are magical and infuriating.

Chavonne (she/her):

Yeah. Which is also magical at the same time.

Tiana (she/her):

Absolutely. This small person who, this tiny person who has zero lived experience just taking me through my paces. I’m like, “Okay, sir, I don’t know if I can send it to this, but I suppose I did. I gave birth to you. I said yes to that.”

No, but I think the thing that’s interesting is that one of the hardest things, especially as somebody who has a fraught history with my body. One of the most, I say interesting… Interesting is this all encompassing word. But no, it’s really one of the most challenging things is to not put that on him, not give that to him.

I already have a leg up, which is that my child is an assigned male at birth child and not assigned female at birth, which makes, in that way, it’s slightly easier because there’s less pressure on him as far as what his body can and cannot do.

But it’s forced me to not only look at my relationship to my body as an assigned female at birth body, but also my relationship to men. And that’s not, I have to say, that hasn’t been the healthiest relationship. I haven’t had the best models or teachers as far as that’s concerned. So it’s a lot. It’s been a lot.

But he’s been… This is about me, of course, not about him. But he has been the best coal mine canary ever because I don’t have a great relationship with either of my parents. And one of the reasons why is that I want to be able to have a very frank and honest adult relationship with these people, but it requires them to be able to be frank and honest and admit that they were low capacity parents and made mistakes.

Chavonne (she/her):

Hm.

Tiana (she/her):

And unfortunately, that is a skillset lots of people refuse, refuse to take on. So I have to be very boundaried in my relationship with my parents, which sucks. It helps in a lot of ways, but it also really sucks not the relationship I want to be having.

So I look at that and specifically the relationship with my mother. And I’m like, how do I do things differently so my child doesn’t have this relationship with me in the future?

And so in that way, my child is… I suppose maybe a nicer way to say it is he’s my North Star, he’s my guide or whatever. He’s the little angel that sits on my shoulder.

But basically it’s like if I cannot be kind to my child, if I cannot treat his chaos and his tantrum and his whatever is going on with kindness and compassion, then I need to go and sit down and find out how I can refill my resources because he doesn’t deserve any of whatever negative shit is coming up for me, he doesn’t deserve me to talk to him sideways. He doesn’t deserve any of that. And nothing that he’s doing is malicious.

Okay. He knows stuff. Yeah. I mean, he’s like eight now, and he’s like, he knows. He know how to turn my… I was going to say turn my buttons. I suppose you can turn buttons. Anyway, he knows how to turn them.

Chavonne (she/her):

Turn my dial.

Tiana (she/her):

He knows how to push them. He knows how to yank them out. He knows how to do all the things. He knows how to trigger me. He knows how to get a result. He knows how to get a reaction. He knows how to do it. He gets it.

But if I can’t control that, I’m like, “Oh. Oh, hi. Yeah. So I’m not good. I’m going to be over there.” And it’s hard because sometimes you’re just… You want to default to what you know, which is I’m the adult, I’m the parent. I’m the one with the power. You need to do what I tell you to do because I told you to do it.

It doesn’t matter if it makes sense to you or not, you just need to do it because I’m the one in charge. And it’s like, “That’s shit. I never liked that as a kid.”

And my child is a person and all that fucking stubbornness that he got, well, guess what? These are great, great character traits that are going to take him far in life because he’s not going to let somebody tell him who he is. And I think that’s beautiful. But also I need him to be able to keep that because the world wants to tell him who he is.

Jenn (she/they):

That’s right.

Tiana (she/her):

And so if I kill that, then I just open the chasm for all the others. So my coal mine canary, my coal mine canary, my small, small monster. Yeah. If I can’t be kind to him, I need to go sit down.

Jenn (she/they):

Wow. So it’s like he’s an invitation for you to resource and regulate first.

Tiana (she/her):

Absolutely. Always.

Chavonne (she/her):

This makes you want to go pick up my boys and just squeeze them.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah.

Chavonne (she/her):

I know. Right?

Jenn (she/they):

It’s so beautiful mirroring.

Chavonne (she/her):

Yes.

Jenn (she/they):

It’s such a beautiful mirroring opportunity that over and over and over kind of opportunity that you’re talking about. That’s really beautiful.

Tiana (she/her):

It is.

Jenn (she/they):

Because when you were talking about your conditioning, I was like, “Ooh, that part, that spicy part really got kicked up in me just listening.” It was like, “Yes, yes, yes.” Right?

Tiana (she/her):

Yeah.

Jenn (she/they):

That’s a default because of what we were conditioned as. And you were talking about being assigned female at birth, right? Socialized as femme, we’re not supposed to be too much.

Tiana (she/her):

Right.

Jenn (she/they):

And so we’re supposed to keep our kiddos quiet. That’s part of not being too much. And I just love that the directionality of what you’re doing is totally shifted. It’s so important. It would’ve made such a difference in my life, to be able to see that modeled for me. Truly.

Tiana (she/her):

Absolutely.

Jenn (she/they):

It’s hard to model it for yourself and see that it’s happening. It’s easier to see it from someone else modeling it.

Tiana (she/her):

Truly.

Jenn (she/they):

Just noticing that grief that we likely all share, too.

Chavonne (she/her):

It almost feels like you hear the term reparenting yourself by parenting this child. I am determined to give this tiny human what I desperately needed as a kid. And I think that a lot myself, too. Yeah.

Jenn (she/they):

And I think other people call it gentle parenting, which I find to be something else entirely. But it doesn’t feel gentle.

Tiana (she/her):

No.

Jenn (she/they):

I’ve always been like, why is that called gentle? Because it’s not very gentle.

Tiana (she/her):

Because there’s so much less shaking. I’m not snatching up my child.

Chavonne (she/her):

So much fewer threats?

Tiana (she/her):

Right. Because that’s the thing, right?

Chavonne (she/her):

Yes.

Tiana (she/her):

I mean, geez, I watch my child. So there was a period… So my child has my eyes and my eyebrows, not the ones that you might see today. These are sculpted to look this way. This is intentional.

The ones that I was born with, the ones in my senior photos, these are the eyebrows my child has. And when you put us side by side, a photo of him. I did it one time. My mom has this portrait of me, her and my sister, and I was four and my sister was three.

I took a photo of it with my phone and I made a little collage of a photo of my child around the same age and spitting image, spitting image. So I look at him and I see myself. And so that’s kind of, I guess where the reparenting comes in quite a lot, really like literally.

But also, we have so many character traits that are similar. He’s very artistic. He’s got so much personality. He likes to be funny. He is really loving.

My kid is awesome. I mean, I think everybody says their kid is awesome. And I think that yes, absolutely, children are awesome. My kid’s really awesome too, but I’m just like-

Jenn (she/they):

He’s awesome to you.

Tiana (she/her):

Oh God, he’s so awesome to me. But it’s just like I look at him and I see how he is moving around in the world. And I’m just like, if I had had a parent with more capacity and more skills, I could have been like him, too.

Jenn (she/they):

Mm-hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

And it gives me a moment of real compassion for my parents because they were low capacity. I think they still are, to be honest. But they were low capacity for a lot of reasons.

I mean, we were poor. They didn’t have post-secondary education. They were working jobs that had us hand to mouth. And so it’s hard. Also, they were folks of color. They were… They still are. They’re both alive. And it’s just so many reasons why they did not have their needs met.

And then they have these children that they want to give the world, and they can’t. I can understand that tension because we are in a wildly, much more privileged position financially and otherwise than I was when I was a child.

And I see… I see. I see because I buy the things. All the stuff my kid has, he’s just got stuff. When he wants a thing, he can have a thing. And so that makes it infuriating when he says he is bored.

Jenn (she/they):

Yes.

Tiana (she/her):

Because they’re just like, “Hold on. Do you see the plethora of things that we have?” We had one TV. It’s like, “What are you doing? You have all the devices, child.” But anyway…

Jenn (she/they):

You have the internet. How are you bored?

Tiana (she/her):

Mm-hmm. Anyhow, but the long and short of it is just I see how much he has and I’ve been able to give that to him. And it’s still hard. It’s still really hard to be a parent. It’s still really hard to be present. It’s still really hard to get things done.

So I’m just like, wow. They raised the hell out of me sort of in a backhanded way. I didn’t necessarily become who I am because this is who I was taught to be. I kind of became who I am, partially because they taught me some things; but also because they did some things that I was like, “I don’t want to do that.” Yeah.

Jenn (she/they):

Wow. I love this nod to little embodied you, right, who made these choices. I love that. Right? You’re like, “I’m not doing that.” That’s so embodied.

I’ve been thinking a lot about non-acceptance as a really important part of embodiment. People are always talking about acceptance, but what about more like, “I absolutely do not accept.” Right? Not for me. No thanks. Right? It feels so important. It just felt so embodied as you were talking about little, you being like, “No, I’m not going to do it.”

Tiana (she/her):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jenn (she/they):

You were your own embodiment teacher too, right? Little you.

Tiana (she/her):

Well, that’s the thing that’s fascinating. A lot of people have the idea that children are stupid because children are ignorant. They don’t know things. And it’s like, okay, not knowing things-

Jenn (she/they):

They lack lived experience.

Tiana (she/her):

Exactly. That’s exactly it. They don’t have context. They don’t have skills. They don’t have lived experience. These things they don’t have.

And that doesn’t make them stupid because have you ever seen a child, even tiny children, baby people solving problems creatively? You’re like-

Jenn (she/they):

How did you get up there? Trust me.

Tiana (she/her):

Yes. How did you get up there and not bust your head four times?

Jenn (she/they):

Yes.

Tiana (she/her):

Thank you. Everything is on the floor and all the containers are cracked and things are spilled, and you just levitating. I don’t know how you did that, but somehow you did and that’s amazing.

Jenn (she/they):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It is. They’re just incredible.

Tiana (she/her):

You hate it in the moment. You’re just like, “Oh my God, my kid.” But then it’s also, if you can just take a moment, just step back for a moment and be like, “Wow, you’re super cool. You’re so smart, so creative.

Chavonne (she/her):

And also look at this mess you just created for me.

Tiana (she/her):

Correct.

Chavonne (she/her):

I sort of hate you while I’m in awe. I’m in awe, but I hate you.

Tiana (she/her):

Correct. Correct. Yeah. But they know stuff inherently. And our job as parents is to not take that away from them; or even better, because you can’t not take some of that away from them because we are all carrying our conditioning on our back, and we live in this oppressive-ass world.

Chavonne (she/her):

Yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

So your job is really like how can I take as little of that from you as possible?

Chavonne (she/her):

Hm.

Tiana (she/her):

How can I hinder you from this self-knowing as little as possible? And how can I-

Chavonne (she/her):

Just stepping away does that too.

Jenn (she/they):

Yes.

Chavonne (she/her):

If can’t be present, I can’t do whatever it is I need to do right now, I got to step back. And I think that’s a huge part of letting them keep some of their magical stardust.

Tiana (she/her):

No, exactly. And that’s hard too, right?

Chavonne (she/her):

Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

Because I want to manage the entire experience. We are in the age of big feelings with my kid and big feelings in relationship to other children.

So my kid is having social challenges because my kid’s an only child, so there are no other children in the household. And so my kid doesn’t have kid politics. He doesn’t understand how you negotiate a thing with another child because everything goes his way for the most part. So he’s struggling with that.

And it’s so hard to not be like, “Oh, let me do for you the things.” Or “Let me make the big feeling that you don’t like, that’s making you feel sad, go away. Let fix it.” And it’s so hard to step back and be like, “Oh my God, I will comfort and then let it be.”

And it’s hard because then you’re sitting here going, “Okay, maybe not you, but I am.” I’m sitting here going, “I am failing. I’m such a bad mom.”

Chavonne (she/her):

Every day of my life. Yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

“My child is sad and having emotions and that means me, I’m failing.”

Chavonne (she/her):

Yeah. Hm.

Tiana (she/her):

And how do you have that without then also having that bleed out onto your kid and making it their problem?

Chavonne (she/her):

Correct. Yeah. I say that maybe because I’m a therapist mom as well. I’m like, “You’re not responsible for my feelings, but that really hurt my feelings.” And I’m like, “Stop it. Just say it hurt your feelings.” And my husband’s like, “Okay.”

Jenn (she/they):

That’s so beautiful and interesting. My parents used words like you’re in trouble. And trouble never meant anything to me.

First of all, a little kiddo doesn’t know, “These are my feelings and I am not them.” They don’t know that. They’re like, “Wow. Me and these emotions are one forever and ever.”

And then when it’s something, I don’t know, obscure, nebulous, it’s just hard to understand like trouble. I think it’s just what you’re just saying, Chavonne, to be able to say you’re angry. Right? I also do a caveat. I have trouble with delicate speaking. I’m always trying to be delicate, even though I’d rather be direct, but that’s what I do.

Just noticing that it is alarming at first because the world is like, “Don’t tell people you’re angry, especially if you’re socialized as femme. How dare you be too much?”

And just being like, “I have anger,” or “I am angry.” It’s like a responsibility kind of communication versus being like you are enraging, right? What a different switch. Just noticing how embodied even that language is. I loved that example, Chavonne.

Chavonne (she/her):

Yeah. It’s interesting you’re talking about your only kid and I’m like, I think we all bring our own dynamics into it. So I just want to give you space for that.

So my husband and I are both first kids, which means we did a lot of first-

Jenn (she/they):

Oh, me too.

Tiana (she/her):

… and I are both first kids, which means we did a lot of first-

Jenn (she/they):

Oh, me too!

Tiana (she/her):

Yeah, we did a lot of…

Group:

[inaudible].

Jenn (she/they):

Let’s get into it.

Tiana (she/her):

… first-kid things.

Chavonne (she/her):

Yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

And we have to remind ourselves all the time, “It’s not always the baby’s fault.” I mean, he’s a butt, because he’s my little Taurus butt. But we’re always like, “It’s not always him just being a bully.”

Chavonne (she/her):

Hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

So I think you all bring in your own family dynamics.

Chavonne (she/her):

Yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

So in your defense, he’s not ruined, he’s amazing. He’s an amazing kid. So… Yeah, but I also feel like that on a daily basis.

Chavonne (she/her):

No, and also the whole conversation around parenting, right?

Tiana (she/her):

Yes.

Chavonne (she/her):

Especially when you’re the mom-style parent.

Tiana (she/her):

Absolutely. “Oh, it’s supposed to look a certain way and if it doesn’t, well, clearly you are failing. Is your house clean? Did you fix your bed? Wait, is that dust? Is that dust? Are things not organized by rainbow color and size and shape? Failing. You’re failing. That meal that you cooked, not completely organic and made from scratch? Fail.”

Chavonne (she/her):

Hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

And I’m just like, “Look, we having hot dogs.”

Chavonne (she/her):

If they’re not going to eat anything else, so then why? [inaudible].

Jenn (she/they):

Truly this. It’s like, “Hold on, we ate McDonald’s four times this week.”

Tiana (she/her):

Why did we ate that?

Jenn (she/they):

But it’s like, “Yeah…”

Tiana (she/her):

But we do want to divest of…

Chavonne (she/her):

Yeah. As someone who does a lot of work in this field, how is it being someone who’s assigned female at birth, raising someone who’s assigned male at birth and trying to navigate that and making sure that he’s a decent dude? If that’s how he identifies forever.

Tiana (she/her):

No, yeah, it’s good question.

Chavonne (she/her):

So, keeping that level of embodiment, but also not that level of entitlement. What’s your experience?

Tiana (she/her):

Yes. Right. No, it’s hard.

Jenn (she/they):

Okay, great question. Okay.

Tiana (she/her):

Duh. Yeah, for real. Because the long and the short of it is, I remember when I was pregnant and I started to go to the baby sites or whatever. And I was in these forums and there were women in there going, “Oh God, I just found out it’s a boy and I can’t believe it. I wanted a girl so badly and I don’t know what I’m going to do.”

And I was just like, “Okay, wrong energy for your pregnancy because your child is noticing that and will always have that feeling for the rest of their life. I don’t understand why. But for some reason, I don’t feel like we really connect here, parent. What’s going on with that?”

Jenn (she/they):

Hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

And I’m just like, “That’s terrible because you have already marked your child as deficient and created that wall between you.”

Jenn (she/they):

Hmm.

Chavonne (she/her):

Hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

And like, “Did I want a girl? Oh, hell no. No. I don’t want to do hair. I have difficult hair. I didn’t want to have to deal with hair.”

Chavonne (she/her):

Yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

I was like, “I struggle with my own hair. I don’t want to have to do more hair.”

Chavonne (she/her):

Hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

“Also, I do not need another menstruating person in my presence, thanks.”

Chavonne (she/her):

Mm-hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

Well, I-

Jenn (she/they):

Gosh, felt that on a lot of levels in my body.

Tiana (she/her):

We’ll put a pin in that one. But basically… So now I’m having a struggle because I’m like, “Oh no, what does that say about your queerness, babe?” And I’m just like, “Nope, we’re just going to put a pin in that one.”

Chavonne (she/her):

Right, we’re going to come back to that later.

Tiana (she/her):

“Yeah, we said it. We’re going to own it. We’re moving on.” But yeah, I don’t really want to deal with the politics of girl.

Jenn (she/they):

Mm-hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

I didn’t want to deal with it. And so I was really happy when I found out. I mean, I knew it was a penis child and at the time I was like, “Oh, it’s a boy.”

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

It’s because I didn’t have that kind of politic or knowing around that. But basically, I was really excited. I was like, “Oh, it’s a boy, it’s going to be so great.” And not from that weird, “I’m going to be a boy mom” place. But I felt really excited at the moment that I had that realization and then was confirmed, because I have the wonderful opportunity to have a boy child and create a man who will go out in the world and be less of that gross dude that people tend to be.

Jenn (she/they):

Hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

I have a wonderful opportunity here.

Jenn (she/they):

Hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

And I was very honored and excited about it.

Jenn (she/they):

Hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

And so, I don’t know how to do that.

Jenn (she/they):

Mm-hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

I wasn’t raised in a house with boys.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah, fair.

Tiana (she/her):

And it’s not like my husband’s helping because he’s a dude who has a lot of gross tendencies. So I’m just like, “How do I… I’m on my own here.” We’re in full exploration mode and just, trial and error. But I was like, “First and foremost, we’re going to get rid of this whole, ‘This is a boy thing, that’s a girl thing.'” So we work really hard to not do that sort of thing.

Jenn (she/they):

Hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

Like, “I made my child a doll with my hands. I hand sewed a doll for this child.”

Chavonne (she/her):

Okay, [inaudible].

Tiana (she/her):

Also, because he was asking for a baby and I was like, “Oh, we’re not doing that anymore. No. We’ve [inaudible], please, I’m not going back to that…”

Chavonne (she/her):

Factory.

Tiana (she/her):

“I’m sorry.”

Chavonne (she/her):

Yep.

Jenn (she/they):

Mm-hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

“We have packed the factory, mothballed it, cut its head off and filled it with garlic. No more. Also, if you’re looking for a really, really roughly used uterus, holler at me because I’ve got one, not even for sale.”

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah, same. We’ll hand them to you.

Tiana (she/her):

It’s just, “There you go, I’ll just…” Definitely. “You want a uterus? Let me know.”

Jenn (she/they):

“Take it. Please.”

Tiana (she/her):

It’s just, “Let me know here.”

Chavonne (she/her):

Yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

“It’s been well-fed, and cared for as best as I could make it happen.” So, yeah. So, just above board here. What is the deal with gynecology and men in gynecology who say things like, “Yeah, the cervix, it doesn’t feel pain. Only pressure, not pain.”

Jenn (she/they):

Oh, okay.

Tiana (she/her):

And then I’m just like, “Hi. Because you know? Because you have a cervix? I don’t know about you, but my cervix feels pain.”

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah. I’ve had a colposcopy.

Chavonne (she/her):

I wish [inaudible]…

Tiana (she/her):

I was just going to say. That thing was…

Jenn (she/they):

I’d like them to know that that is not pressure.

Chavonne (she/her):

No, that’s not.

Tiana (she/her):

That is not pressure.

Jenn (she/they):

I mean, it is pressure and then it’s cutting-

Tiana (she/her):

And then pain. It’s both.

Jenn (she/they):

And then it’s cutting and it hurts.

Tiana (she/her):

Yeah.

Chavonne (she/her):

It hurts so bad.

Jenn (she/they):

They removed a layer of my cells. I felt every single scrape.

Tiana (she/her):

[inaudible].

Jenn (she/they):

Just so that person knows. Right? They’re like, “Oh, it’s just a little pipe cleaner. Just a little scrape.” Yes, the little scrape hurt. Scrapy. Scrape hurt.

Tiana (she/her):

It hurt. Scrape, scrape, scrape.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah, my uterus said, “What?” Right? But the contraction was so fast.

Tiana (she/her):

Yes. So just…

Jenn (she/they):

They’re technically the same organ and part of the same tissue, just so that doctor knows. Right? We feel a lot there. They do not act separately.

Tiana (she/her):

No, not at all. It’s like, “We just close the door because we call this part the cervix and this part doesn’t feel, and it has nothing to do with that part.” All right, cool. You don’t have one. Shut up.

Jenn (she/they):

They told me Tylenol and Ibuprofen after. I asked for major medication. I used ice packs and heating pads. I couldn’t go to work.

Tiana (she/her):

I cried.

Jenn (she/they):

I was like, “Oh, you didn’t tell me I was going to lose four days of my life. With continuous cramping and pain.”

Tiana (she/her):

Oh, my God. The first time I had an IUD inserted, non-hormonal IUD, I had also had the dilution pill thing.

Jenn (she/they):

Mm-hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

So we were good and dilated when we went up in there. And literally, I passed out from pain in the recovery room.

Jenn (she/they):

Oh.

Tiana (she/her):

I had the heating pad on and I woke up four hours later and I was like, “Oh, hey. That’s never okay.”

Jenn (she/they):

That’s what I do. In extreme pain, my body’s like, “Let’s just sleep for a while. We’ll just come back later.”

Chavonne (she/her):

Oh no, ouch.

Tiana (she/her):

Oh no, my nervous system was like powering down.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah.

Chavonne (she/her):

Oh my god.

Jenn (she/they):

Basil bagel reset. We get those when we are in extreme pain.

Tiana (she/her):

“Hey.” So I don’t remember what I was… Yes, I was talking about having a child who has a penis and is assigned male at birth and goes through the world as a boy. It’s fun. I didn’t know what I was doing. I still don’t know what I’m doing, but I’m trying to…

Jenn (she/they):

You’re a new parent. You’re just as new as they are. You’re just as ignorant about parenting as they are…

Tiana (she/her):

Absolutely.

Jenn (she/they):

… about the world. You don’t have the experiences.

Tiana (she/her):

Mm-hmm. We’re figuring out along the way. And so, the thing that’s fun is, we are like a naked house. And it’s because… Well, my husband’s French, number one. But also, my mom comes from an island. We naked people.

Jenn (she/they):

Mm-hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

So I’ve always been relatively comfortable with nudity within the household, but not… I don’t know. So the cross-gender nudity was sort of new to me, but it’s always been cool. And my husband’s cool with it, so I’m like, “Great, we’re cool with it.” So we just be naked and stuff. And then, I did have a moment where I was like, “Oh no, is this okay to do in front of a child?” And then I was just like, “Hold on, child lives on my chest, drinks milk from my breast, was inside of my body for nine months. We share cells.” It’s like, “Okay, it’s going to be all right if the child sees a titty. It’s going to be fine.”

Chavonne (she/her):

Yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

And…

Jenn (she/they):

In the global south, wouldn’t it be just a part of life?

Chavonne (she/her):

Mm-hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

Also, they’re just breasts and people have them.

Jenn (she/they):

Mm-hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

And why are we weird about it?

Jenn (she/they):

Mm-hmm.

Chavonne (she/her):

Agreed.

Tiana (she/her):

Yeah, so basically, I allow him to touch me, and I’ve said this before. And then in my head started going, “Oh God, people are going to think things.” And I’m like, “You know what? If you hear me say that I allow my child to touch me, and you go to a negative place, I am so sorry that you had that experience and I’m so sorry that that is your trauma.”

Jenn (she/they):

Hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

“And I want you to have all of my love and compassion around that, and I want you to have somebody help you hold that and work through it.”

Jenn (she/they):

Mm-hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

“But that’s not what we’re doing here. That’s not what I mean.”

Jenn (she/they):

Hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

“What I mean is, we are not weird about the fact that my kid comes over and goes, ‘Hey, boobas, they’re very soft. And look, they’re jiggly. This is fun.'” And I’m like, “Yeah, you are correct. Boobas are jiggly and soft and fun.”

Jenn (she/they):

Hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

And then it’s like, “Okay, but that’s the nipple. I don’t like it when you touch that. So let’s not touch those. And we practice consent.”

Chavonne (she/her):

Mm-hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

“And being able to say things out loud like, ‘I don’t like this,’ and then having the other person practice respecting that.”

Jenn (she/they):

Hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

My kid comes over and jiggles the belly and then goes, “Look, your belly is so big and fat. Why is your belly so big and fat, mama?” And I’m like, “Well, this is the kind of belly that I have.”

Jenn (she/they):

Hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

“And some people just have big fat bellies and there’s nothing wrong with being fat.” And my kid goes, “Yeah, that’s right. There’s nothing wrong with being fat.” And I just love that, because he’s starting to say it on his own sometimes. Because recently in school, they did this fit kids thing for the future.

Chavonne (she/her):

Oh, gosh.

Tiana (she/her):

And I’m just like, “Oh, let’s go, indoctrination. I see you.”

Jenn (she/they):

Mm-hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

And of course, because it’s healthest, they’re talking about how to reduce weight and eating and all that stuff. And fat came up during a conversation at dinner one night, and he just unprompted said, “And there’s nothing wrong with being fat.” And I was like, “We learned. I love it.”

Jenn (she/they):

Mm-hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

And that’s really exciting. So he’s been questioning.

Jenn (she/they):

Hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

Because he’s known for a long time. Because we have talked about it. Where it’s like, “You have a penis and I have a vulva.” And he just thinks vulva is the funniest word. And I agree. It is a funny word.

Jenn (she/they):

It is.

Tiana (she/her):

“Vulva. Vulva, vulva, vulva.” And he just loves it and it makes him cackle every time. But he started to ask, “What does it look like?”

Jenn (she/they):

Hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

And I don’t feel comfortable with that.

Jenn (she/they):

Mm-hmm.

Chavonne (she/her):

Hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

I do not feel comfortable with, “Well, here, let me lay back and let you see.” I’m not comfortable with that.

Chavonne (she/her):

Yeah.

Jenn (she/they):

Hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

And I have mixed feelings about that discomfort, but I also am trying to give myself grace around it because I know what I was indoctrinated into.

Chavonne (she/her):

Yeah.

Jenn (she/they):

Hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

So it’s like, “I’m allowed to have this discomfort.” And also, I am allowed to acknowledge that this discomfort is coming from a really yucky place where sex and genitalia, and just sex and anatomy are intertwined.

Jenn (she/they):

Yes.

Tiana (she/her):

And it’s not true and it’s really harmful, and I still feel this way, sometimes.

So what I did was, I had to have a good think about it because you can’t just go to the Google and search, “Kids. Genitals.” You can’t put those words in there…

Jenn (she/they):

No.

Tiana (she/her):

… because you’re going to get all kinds of… No, I don’t want to be on anybody’s list any more than I’m already on list.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

Because that’s a list that gets you taken to jail.

Chavonne (she/her):

Hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

And I don’t need to be inside of prison for trying to educate my child. That’s not okay.

Jenn (she/they):

Hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

So, I know that there are people in the world who do do this work. For example, a friend of mine, Isy Abraham-Raveson, if I pronounce it correctly, they have a whole organization called Yes!, which stands for, “Your Empowered Sexuality!”

Jenn (she/they):

Cool.

Chavonne (she/her):

Nice.

Tiana (she/her):

And they do teaching about sexuality to children. And so that’s one resource. Another resource is Sex Positive Parenting.

Jenn (she/they):

Mm-hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

This is Marissa [inaudible].

Jenn (she/they):

Mm-hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

I’m pronouncing everybody’s name wrong today. I apologize, folks.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

But that’s also a great resource.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah.

Chavonne (she/her):

Great [inaudible].

Tiana (she/her):

She’s got great stuff for talking about sex with kids.

Jenn (she/they):

Hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

And having a sex-positive household and approach to parenting, which I adore.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

And so, the cool thing is, through Yes!, they actually have a fucking coloring sheet that she can download that shows genitals. And it’s here on my desk somewhere and I will find it and I will show it to you. But basically, this thing is absolutely gorgeous because it shows a variation of genitalia. Both male and female genitalia, and intersex genitalia as well.

Jenn (she/they):

Wow.

Tiana (she/her):

And super exciting. And so, I show this to my kid and it was hilarious. Here it is. So I’m just going to show it to the camera. And it’s like they’re little line drawings, so they’re not super easy to see.

Chavonne (she/her):

Oh, I love this. Wow.

Tiana (she/her):

But it was just so cool. And it was funny because I showed it to him, and I was like, “Do you know what that is?” And he was like… My kid had no idea.

Jenn (she/they):

Hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

Even the penis drawings, seems like that… I don’t remember what he said. I don’t remember what he said, but I think he said something about a carrot. He was like, “Yeah.” I was just like, “Oh, yeah. No.” But it was so funny.

Jenn (she/they):

Hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

But it was so interesting because then, when I started to explain it to him, because I had him read the words and then I started to explain to him what he was looking at, and he was just like, “Oh my God, this is horrible.” And I was like, “I mean, yeah, genitals aren’t the prettiest things. I agree. I mean, they have beauty. They are real beautiful in a lot of ways, but also I agree, they are weird.”

Chavonne (she/her):

Yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

“And they are strange looking, especially when you look at them for the first time and…”

Chavonne (she/her):

Yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

“And vulvas do look really, really, really different from penis.”

Jenn (she/they):

Mm-hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

So he was blown away. But we talked about it.

Jenn (she/they):

Mm-hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

And I thought it was really cool, because I was able to answer his question that he asked in a way where I didn’t violate my own weirdness or consent around my own body and my bodily autonomy. And I got him an awesome resource.

Chavonne (she/her):

That is so cool. And even if my question was so binary, and I apologize for that, but it’s so important to teach it to any gender, all genders.

Tiana (she/her):

What, empowerment?

Chavonne (she/her):

Not empowerment, that’s the word I was thinking of, but also empowerment, but also what embodiment looks like.

Tiana (she/her):

Yeah.

Chavonne (she/her):

And that is such a cool… Also, I am not okay with the fact that my kid’s going to have to have this conversation in three years, possibly three and four years. But, nope. I mean, obviously we’re going to do it safe and whatever. And like, “Jenn’s nibbling next year. What? The year after? No, I’m not okay.”

Jenn (she/they):

Well, one thing all these ages of kiddos can agree on is that butts are already funny. That’s a pretty age-universal concept.

Tiana (she/her):

[inaudible] and fart and boogers. All day long.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

And butts, and butts and butts. Yep. That’s the one thing.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah, they’re buttskies. My youngest nibbling says buttsky.

Tiana (she/her):

Yeah. But I have to say, the thing about genitals is, I was having a conversation earlier today, because I have this great book about gender for children.

Jenn (she/they):

Hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

It’s called Becoming You. I think that’s the name of the book. And it’s adorable. It’s got beautiful representation of different types and kinds… Not different types and kinds of bodies as far as size and shape is concerned. All the children represented are for the most part the same size and shape.

Jenn (she/they):

Oh.

Tiana (she/her):

But there are children… There’s one that’s got a prosthetic leg.

Jenn (she/they):

Hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

And they have different kinds of hair, different skin colors, some have glasses, things like that. So there is… And still using this cookie cutter-style character, still quite a lot of representation and variation.

Jenn (she/they):

Hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

The book is about gender. So it’s a first conversation about gender.

Jenn (she/they):

Hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

And it’s so cute because the little children characters have different pronouns, and it’s just super cute.

And I just really [inaudible] it. And I was showing it to a friend today and letting them read it. And at one point they said, “Oh no, I think this is too much for kids.” And I was like, “Okay, tell me more.” And they said, “Because they use the words ‘penis’ and ‘vagina’.” And I was like, “Okay, so at what age do you think it is a good age to start educating children about the words ‘penis’ and ‘vagina’?” And they were like, “Oh, I don’t know, around the age 15.” And I was like, “Okay, hi.”

Chavonne (she/her):

Oh, no.

Tiana (she/her):

“Okay, so let me put my glasses on and let’s have a conversation. I am insufferable. And let me tell you about why that’s not okay.”

Chavonne (she/her):

Hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

And first and foremost, I did name the fact that, “You are talking about two totally different things and you’re conflating two sort of different things.”

Jenn (she/they):

Hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

“This book is talking about anatomy and identity.”

Jenn (she/they):

Hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

“You are talking about sex. Actual sexual intercourse. And I also disagree that we should wait until they’re 15. By the time, I was having sex. By the time I…”

Chavonne (she/her):

I was going to say, you could be pregnant way earlier than that. All kinds of things that you could have done…

Tiana (she/her):

Pregnant.

Chavonne (she/her):

… before that. Yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

“Ridden with all kinds of…”

Jenn (she/they):

Thank you.

Chavonne (she/her):

Yes.

Tiana (she/her):

“… infections. Because you didn’t know any better.” Like, “No, no, no.”

Chavonne (she/her):

Yeah, absolutely.

Tiana (she/her):

“Not at all.” So it was just like, “Yeah, these things are separate.” I was like, “Also, talk about sex. We do sex with so many different parts of our bodies. It’s not just penises and vaginas that our sex is done with. You do sex with fingers, you do sex with your mouth, you do sex with your butt. And…”

Chavonne (she/her):

Sorry, and then I laugh. Because apparently I’m four years old too. Sorry.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah, what’s so funny?

Tiana (she/her):

[inaudible] talking about how butts are funny.

Chavonne (she/her):

The word “butt” is hilarious, yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

But also, in all the other different types and kinds of ways you can do sex that… Folks be creative when it comes to sex. But either way.

Jenn (she/they):

Absolutely.

Tiana (she/her):

There are so many different types and kinds of ways to do sex. So it’s like, “Is it weird that a five year old knows that this is a mouth because people use mouths for sex?” No. That’s just out of… Doesn’t even make [inaudible].

Chavonne (she/her):

Absolutely.

Tiana (she/her):

So basically, it’s like, “I am not going to withhold information about my child’s anatomy and other anatomy. And literally, anatomy of human people.”

Chavonne (she/her):

Yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

Also, if you have a creature at home with you, “You said, ‘Vulva.'”

Chavonne (she/her):

Mm-hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

“You said, ‘Penis.'” It’s like, “Come on.” And so it’s like, “No…”

Jenn (she/they):

And definitely a butthole. Mm-hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

Definitely. Especially if it’s a cat.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

[Inaudible] buttholes. So it’s just like, “How do we decouple these things because they need to be decoupled.” And so the long and the short of it is like, “No, I’m going to teach my child these words because…” I didn’t get into this, but it’s like, “If a thing happens, they need to be able to…”

Chavonne (she/her):

Absolutely.

Tiana (she/her):

“… say these words and communicate if someone is trying to be inappropriate with them in these areas.”

Chavonne (she/her):

Absolutely. Mm-hmm.

Jenn (she/they):

And also, how do we get consent if we don’t know what we’re getting consent about specifically?

Tiana (she/her):

Exactly.

Chavonne (she/her):

Absolutely.

Tiana (she/her):

And I was like…

Jenn (she/they):

[inaudible] specific. So specific.

Tiana (she/her):

Absolutely. And also on top of it, it’s like, “Not educating people does not stop them from curiosity. It does not stop them from acting. It does not stop them from accidentally figuring things out.”

Jenn (she/they):

Hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

“And I would much rather have my child find out these things from me so that he can be in a safe environment and ask his questions in a way that I know that he’s not being manipulated or groomed or something like that.”

Chavonne (she/her):

Absolutely.

Tiana (she/her):

“And I can give him resources and information that can help him make better decisions about what to do or not do with his penis.”

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

And so it was just interesting. So it’s like, “I think that we should give information to children because all the abstinence campaigns, the world over, have they really done anything positive?”

Chavonne (she/her):

Clearly not.

Tiana (she/her):

Clearly not.

Jenn (she/they):

They’ve done a lot. I wouldn’t call any of it positive.

Chavonne (she/her):

Exactly.

Tiana (she/her):

That is true. You’re absolutely right.

Jenn (she/they):

As with everything puritanical and fundamentalist in flavor, right? It’s like, “Is this really conditioning that we want to keep around?”

Tiana (she/her):

No, exactly. And so it’s like, “Is it a hard conversation? Is it an uncomfortable conversation?” Abso-fucking-lutely.

Chavonne (she/her):

Yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

So, God damn, do I wish somebody had had this conversation with me when I was a kid.

Jenn (she/they):

Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

Because I promise you, I found out about these things. I promise you also, I did not find out about them in safe ways.

Jenn (she/they):

Hmm.

Chavonne (she/her):

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah. Thinking about a 15 year old and their ability… Well, their lack of ability to understand consequences of all of their actions, because they’re brand new to so many things.

Chavonne (she/her):

Mm-hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

Exactly. And they already have TikTok. They have a phone in their pocket with all the access to all the internet, and oh my God, how much porn is there out there?

Chavonne (she/her):

So much.

Jenn (she/they):

Mm-hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

And not even just regular-degular, penis-and-vagina, penetrative porn, but all the different types and kinds of porn that some of it is really, really unwholesome. And I’m not saying unwholesome like, “Oh my God, how dare you do that with your body part?” No. Where it’s literally depictions of really unhealthy sexual behaviors. And unhealthy insofar as we have manipulation, we have just all kinds of things.

Chavonne (she/her):

All the things, yes.

Tiana (she/her):

Yeah. There’s not consent here. You’re not respecting someone’s boundaries.

Jenn (she/they):

Mm-hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

There’s no care for the partner.

Jenn (she/they):

Yes.

Tiana (she/her):

There’s so much…

Tiana (she/her):

… Hair for the partner.

Jenn (she/they):

Yes.

Tiana (she/her):

There’s so much sex porn stuff out there.

Jenn (she/they):

Just on Netflix.

Chavonne (she/her):

Yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

Oh my God.

Jenn (she/they):

What is that one? 365 days.

Tiana (she/her):

Okay, I think-

Jenn (she/they):

I got a warning about that one ahead of time. But anyone can watch it.

Chavonne (she/her):

I don’t know that one.

Jenn (she/they):

It’s on Netflix.

Tiana (she/her):

I didn’t-

Chavonne (she/her):

I did not know that one.

Tiana (she/her):

I did not make it very far. Because I was just like, oh-

Jenn (she/they):

I didn’t either.

Tiana (she/her):

I was like, this could be a fun, spicy thing to watch. I think I got to the part, I don’t know, I got 20 minutes in and I was like, oh, I can’t. This is so bad.

Jenn (she/they):

It’s bad.

Tiana (she/her):

Oh, so bad. So it’s-

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah. It’s about manipulation and power dynamics and it’s not about consent.

Tiana (she/her):

No, thank you. Please.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

It’s so bad. I’m just-

Jenn (she/they):

I guess kid options on Netflix could block it for a while, right?

Chavonne (she/her):

Sure.

Jenn (she/they):

I happen to know some very feisty 13 ish year olds, and they know how to turn off their own child setting by just going into the administration zone on their parents’ account, right?

Tiana (she/her):

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Jenn (she/they):

Or whatever the phrase would be.

Chavonne (she/her):

Exactly.

Jenn (she/they):

But it’s like… That’s just your average Netflix. We haven’t even talked about HBO or Max or whatever it’s called.

Tiana (she/her):

Oh my God.

Chavonne (she/her):

Correct.

Jenn (she/they):

Or just the internet.

Tiana (she/her):

Just the internet.

Chavonne (she/her):

Just the internet.

Jenn (she/they):

Those are just some examples. Yeah.

Chavonne (she/her):

Absolutely.

Jenn (she/they):

That’s a really great point. It’s everywhere.

Chavonne (she/her):

Yeah, yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

It’s everywhere. It’s everywhere.

Jenn (she/they):

In a totally different way than I think I really considered it until this moment actually.

Chavonne (she/her):

Correct, correct.

Tiana (she/her):

Yeah, and that’s fucking frightening.

Chavonne (she/her):

Yeah, it is.

Tiana (she/her):

And so it’s like, literally you have to be making those decisions. Me, with the relationship that I am working to create with my child, the openness and the trust and the respect, do I want to be the person who’s introducing these hard things? Or do I want my child to find it on fucking internet, on TikTok where I don’t know them people. You know?

Chavonne (she/her):

Yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

You have to do hard things.

Chavonne (she/her):

You do.

Jenn (she/they):

You can do hard things.

Chavonne (she/her):

Loving tiny humans is doing hard things, yeah. If you care about them and want them to survive and thrive in this world.

Tiana (she/her):

Absolutely.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah. Being an adult is being scared all the time. Those seem to just go really well together.

Chavonne (she/her):

All the time. All the time.

Tiana (she/her):

Scared with a side of grief.

Chavonne (she/her):

Something that you talked about in our first interview… Again, I’m still blown away that it’s three years ago, so I’m going to keep-

Tiana (she/her):

I know.

Chavonne (she/her):

Three years ago.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[59:32]

Chavonne (she/her):

30 years ago, three months ago. I don’t know. We talked about capacity and capability. You spoke about those. Jenn and I talk about this-

Jenn (she/they):

And today.

Chavonne (she/her):

… constantly. Yeah. And today. Yeah. So they’re really distinct parts of embodiment and that was a part of our conversation. Have these topics since we last talked three years ago, sat with you, felt heavy for you or expanded for you?

Tiana (she/her):

This is a great question because, so I’m an online business person and I am trying to put work out into the world and make programs for people to help them build capacity for the difficulties that are required to work toward liberation. I put things out and I let people know that they’re there. Excuse me. I often am receiving responses of people who go, “Oh my God, that looks amazing. I really want to do this so badly, but I can’t.”

A lot of the I can’t is, I don’t have money and it’s too expensive. Too expensive is a different thing. Too expensive is, I looked at what you’re offering and I looked at what you’re asking for, and I think these things don’t match. That’s what that too expensive means. But I don’t have money, I can’t afford it. This is a different conversation.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah, yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

I can’t change my price to fit every situation-

Jenn (she/they):

Of course.

Tiana (she/her):

… simply because I am unfortunately a person who lives under fucking capitalism. My business needs to continue eating and I need to be compensated for my time, energy, and effort. As much as I want my work to be free, it needs to be resourced.

Jenn (she/they):

Absolutely.

Tiana (she/her):

Money is one of the big resources. I need to charge money for the things that I do. I’m sorry about that, but this is where we’re at. I also hear, “I’m so overwhelmed with everything right now. I can’t. I don’t have space. I don’t have time.” And then another thing I hear is, “I love this, but I have to do these other things first because I got to get myself right with…” whatever God is in their face right now. “And then I will come and do this body stuff.” That’s the one I hate the most. The reason why is because your body is with you every day, all day.

Jenn (she/they):

Yes.

Tiana (she/her):

It has been with you since before you were you. If you get right with your body, at least in partnership and neutral feeling with your body where you have mutual respect and care, everything else just gets that much easier. So much easier. If so much is times three or times 0.003, that’s neither here nor there. But it is easier if you and your body are on board together. However, folks don’t have capacity. And so I understand that because oh, my capacity is lacking so hard right now. So hard right now. How can you not? Who has capacity right now? The world is so on fire. It’s just a pool lava, just swimming in it.

It’s just like, I’ve been thinking a lot about how do we create capacity. I’ve been talking to a friend of mine who is the head of We Make The Path Community Interest Company. Their focus is on helping people who live with chronic illness and disability achieve the things they want to achieve. And so we’ve been in conversation about creating a course to help people either create capacity or learn how to better harness the capacity that they do have. And so we’ve been discussing this and it’s been really juicy because one of the things that I think has always been in there in the conversation, but not yet completely, I haven’t formed the words around it, is the fact that a lot of the times we feel like we don’t have capacity because we don’t feel ownership of these resources that we actually have access to. And so in the conversation around parenting, as a parent, my kid is eight now, so I’ve been at this for a while.

Oh my God, it’s been so long. I don’t know how people make it to sending kids off to adult life. I’m like, wow, you can still form sentences. Good on you. Good gracious. It’s been so long. It’s been the longest eight years. But basically, I feel obligated sometimes to just be here. Do I want to be here? No, I’d rather be somewhere else. I’d rather be hanging out somewhere with some folks and having a conversation. But I’m here because I feel obligated to be here. Even when nobody needs me immediately, I feel obligated to be available. And so that actually sucks capacity for me because during that time when I’m allowing myself, holding myself in availability, I’m unable to really focus on anything else. And so I find that I really have a hard time working, unless it’s talking work or I am producing verbally something in interaction with other people directly, I don’t really have the ability to work when my husband and child are home because I am at attention.

This actually makes me feel anxious. There’s an anxiety that I carry with me anytime that I am in mom-wife mode. Do they need me? They’re in the other room, cackling at a movie or whatever. I’m sitting here and I’m trying to get some things done because I’ve got a deadline. I owe somebody something by a certain date and time. I’m trying to do my work, but I can’t focus 100% of my energy on it because there’s a little gremlin sitting right there in the back of my head going, “You should be out there with them. You’re wasting time. These precious moments are slipping away. You’re such a bad mom. You’re such a bad partner. What are you doing? You like your business better? What is that?” I’m just like, “Oh, hey. I don’t know whose voice-”

Jenn (she/they):

Anxiety is such a thief.

Chavonne (she/her):

Such a thief of joy.

Tiana (she/her):

I don’t know whose voice that is. I have no idea whose voice that is exactly. But I do know that, shut up. Come on. They don’t need me. I’m not, not spending time with them. When I’m with my kid, I try to be with my kid. That’s my partner. We do adventures together. Sometimes our adventures are only in Minecraft, but-

Jenn (she/they):

Still adventures.

Tiana (she/her):

… we be doing things together.

Chavonne (she/her):

Totally adventure. Yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

I love Minecraft.

Jenn (she/they):

I love that you love it.

Tiana (she/her):

Basically, it’s just I try to be with my kid when I’m with my kid, even if it’s just the only real time that we’re spending is the little baby cuddle that we have in the morning before I have to hurry his ass to get dressed so he can get out the door and catch the bus on time. And then the cute little Kiki we have in the car on the ride home from school after I pick him up. Those times, I’m trying to be as focused on him as I can, but I got stuff to do.

I was a whole ass human being and a whole ass person before I became a parent.

Jenn (she/they):

You still are.

Chavonne (she/her):

Yes.

Tiana (she/her):

I still am. I have fought really hard not to let that go. There’s a tension there. There’s a tension there. There’s a real tension there.

Chavonne (she/her):

Every day.

Tiana (she/her):

There’s such a tension there. Oh, boy does that little, you’re failing at parenting gremlin… Strong, strong. But it’s just, I’ve had to be really honest with myself about what my needs are. My needs are, I need them to go away sometimes and leave me the hell alone. If they don’t go away, I need to go away sometimes and be left the hell alone. It’s like I’m not checking in, I’m not calling to say good night before I sleep. Because I do have the very, very wonderful privilege of every now and again, being able to take a couple day stay at a hotel.

Chavonne (she/her):

Nice.

Tiana (she/her):

I’m not going anywhere. I’m just going into the city. Is it a nice hotel? No, not really, but it’s my own bed and my own toilet, and I don’t have to clean it.

Chavonne (she/her):

Yes.

Jenn (she/they):

Don’t have to share it either.

Chavonne (she/her):

This is from the last part. [inaudible].

Tiana (she/her):

I don’t have to clean it and I share it.

Jenn (she/they):

You just have to be in your own energy.

Tiana (she/her):

Yes.

Jenn (she/they):

Hell yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

I do that every now and again because it helps me be able to be more present when I am here. It doesn’t mean that I love them less. It doesn’t mean I like less.

Chavonne (she/her):

Yeah. You’d think you’d love them more if you can get some space, honestly.

Tiana (she/her):

Oh, good God, yes. I’m such a better parent. I am so much more eager to hang out with my kid and listen to him tell me for the 7000th time in the past three days about this thing that he did. I’m here for it because I was able to get space.

Chavonne (she/her):

Absolutely. Something that’s coming to mind, and I’m not sure, I’m going to sit with it, but when you said… first of all, I love this idea of increasing capacity for people. But in my head I was like, is that something that we need to do? Or do we need to decrease demand? Is that a capitalist idea that I just need to increase my capacity? I’m just sitting with that. That’s an interesting… Maybe that’s my own trying to push against it, even though I feel like I’m trying to tell myself… I literally do every day say, “Okay, I’m going to get my shit together today. I’m going to get my life together.” That’s in my idea, creating capacity. But who’s telling us that we need more?

Tiana (she/her):

No, I agree.

Chavonne (she/her):

Also, I also know that when people have chronic illnesses and people have chronic pain, creating different capacities is important. I’m just sitting with that right now.

Tiana (she/her):

No, absolutely. Sit with it. Because also, right now, I’m currently doing a group read. I’m currently doing a group read of Rest is Resistance.

Chavonne (she/her):

Yes, I saw that.

Tiana (she/her):

Yeah. By Trisha Hersey, the nap minister, or the nap bishop, I’m sorry, creator of the nap ministry.

Chavonne (she/her):

Oh, yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

We’re reading about how we rest in order to resist, how we claim our time back from grind culture. I’m here for this. But also, creating capacity, the way we, me and my friend Elinor are looking at it, we’re not looking at it as like, okay, take the 100% you have now that your plate is overflowing and you got stuff in your pockets and stored in your cheeks, take that 100% and then now we’re going to make it 110.

That’s not the plan for our… that’s not our message. I know people, there will be people who will hear it that way because that is the message that most people are saying. There’s like, how can you squeeze more out? How can you add more on top? Let’s make your plate bigger. It’s like, no, I don’t want you to make your plate bigger. What we’re wanting to do is we’re wanting to have you have an honest conversation about what is that plate? How big is that plate? Maybe your plate actually has to get smaller. Maybe what you really need are systems. Your plate needs pockets?

Chavonne (she/her):

Okay, I love that.

Tiana (she/her):

Or did you know that actually 40% of your plate is covered in anxiety? Maybe we should deal with that. You know?

Chavonne (she/her):

Mm-hmm.

Tiana (she/her):

And so it’s really that kind of thing where it’s just like, why is your plate overflowing in the first place? And are there other ways that you can better arrange your plate? Because we’re not trying to get you to be able to do more necessarily. We’re trying to find ways for people to be able to do the things they actually want to do inside of the box that they live in.

Chavonne (she/her):

Thank you for that nuance.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah. I really like that. As I was hearing you talk about the percentages in the plate, it’s like, well, sometimes we wake up and someone has smacked the plate and broken it, and all we have is the wedge of a plate today. If we want to use 100% of that little wedge, that’s fine, but it’s a contextual 100%.

Tiana (she/her):

Exactly. Exactly.

Jenn (she/they):

I think that’s so interesting. Oh, I like that.

Tiana (she/her):

Yeah. Because it’s not like take your plate and expand it. No. It’s about what is the plate? Where are you today?

Chavonne (she/her):

Let’s define this plate. Yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

Exactly. And then also, it’s also decluttering in a way.

Chavonne (she/her):

Yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

Do you really need a bigger house? Or do you just need to get rid of some of stuff that you actually don’t even use or need or want anymore?

Chavonne (she/her):

Ma’am, how dare you?

Tiana (she/her):

Look, look, look.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah. That’s a little rude. We’ve gotten rude here.

Tiana (she/her):

Look here, talking to myself as well because I can’t even.

Jenn (she/they):

It’s rude and needed.

Chavonne (she/her):

Yes.

Jenn (she/they):

It’s both.

Chavonne (she/her):

Absolutely.

Tiana (she/her):

It’s rude, but it’s also true. No, I can’t even. My desk, I don’t even know.

Jenn (she/they):

Oh, I’m never going to show you. Don’t ask.

Chavonne (she/her):

Never.

Tiana (she/her):

I’ve got three baskets of laundry just sitting in my room. All the laundry clean.

Jenn (she/they):

That’s the hardest step. The final step is the hardest step.

Tiana (she/her):

Putting away, absolutely.

Jenn (she/they):

I’m like, absolutely not. What if I need to wear them?

Tiana (she/her):

But you would look at the closet, and the closet is also full. Why is the closet full? It’s not full of clean clothes that I wear.

Chavonne (she/her):

Then it wouldn’t be clean because they’re in the laundry.

Tiana (she/her):

It’s full of boxes. It’s full of boxes of things because-

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah, I was going to say, my half of the closet is just, I can’t even walk in there.

Tiana (she/her):

No, my-

Jenn (she/they):

I’m like, cover the floor.

Tiana (she/her):

Right. My closet is full of boxes. Full of boxes that are completely full that have been packed and moved with me from France to Germany, and I haven’t unpacked them yet. I’ve lived here for over, it’s been a year and a half. I haven’t missed anything that’s in those boxes, which clearly means I don’t need them. Hi, these are first world problems. Absolutely. But they’re very real problems for folks in the first world and-

Chavonne (she/her):

They inhibit capacity. Yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

Absolutely. It’s just like how much more liberation can be created if we can actually reharness our capacity? Not build bigger plates, but build plates that work better for us. How can I get back the capacity that I bleed to the anxiety that I feel for obligations that maybe don’t actually exist, but my conditioning says they do.

Chavonne (she/her):

Oh, okay.

Jenn (she/they):

Okay. That’s really…

Tiana (she/her):

That’s a journal topic right there.

Chavonne (she/her):

Yeah.

Jenn (she/they):

What I’m getting, because anxiety is a set of body sensations, that body sensations are a demand against our capacity.

Tiana (she/her):

Yes, yes.

Jenn (she/they):

Holy shit. Holy-

Tiana (she/her):

Every time you have to eat because you live in a body that needs fuel, how much time and energy has to go into getting food to fill that need?

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah. Or my resistance of going to the bathroom? Thank you, ADHD.

Tiana (she/her):

Exactly.

Jenn (she/they):

I’m like, oh, I can hold it a little longer.

Tiana (she/her):

Exactly. Right, right. It’s like I’m sitting here and I’m jiggling my leg, and I can’t really spell the word because I’m so taken by the fact that I’m trying not to pee on myself.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah. And yet we will not move.

Tiana (she/her):

Yeah, we will not move because I need to write the word, I need to finish the sentence. It’s like-

Jenn (she/they):

Okay. This is also rude, but it’s very true. It’s just true.

Tiana (she/her):

It’s like, girl, just go pee. Just go pee. Come back to the sentence, you’ll be fine. Go pee. Except that the reason I’m doing this is because also while I’m peeing, my mind now wanders, and I’ve created a whole new project.

Jenn (she/they):

Yes. Precisely.

Tiana (she/her):

Forgot what I was doing.

Chavonne (she/her):

100%.

Tiana (she/her):

Sitting on the toilet, and I’m just like, oh, no, no. Hold on. Did I poop? Do I need to… oh, no. So then, yeah, you’re just like, did I wipe? I don’t remember. Hold on, hold on. Now we’re just completely lost. But it’s like, how much capacity have you just lost? Right?

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

How much capacity?

Chavonne (she/her):

Wow.

Jenn (she/they):

I can see systems being helpful even in something like you were describing.

Tiana (she/her):

Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Jenn (she/they):

Okay. I’m on the word liberation.

Tiana (she/her):

I love it. My favorite.

[1:19:36]

Jenn (she/they):

This is the third question down from where we are. You beautifully just answered two of them. You showed us the book. We talked about the other one. Really, we’re sitting in talking about, you’ve talked before about… and not just on our podcast before, but you have talked about this in your own podcast before, and also in creating content about how liberation is a relationship itself. Right?

Tiana (she/her):

Oh, yes.

Jenn (she/they):

Embodiment’s a relationship. We have a relationship with our body. Liberation is also a relationship. I’m curious how you encourage yourself and others to foster that relationship.

Tiana (she/her):

Good question, Jenn.

Jenn (she/they):

Thank you.

Chavonne (she/her):

That is a great question.

Tiana (she/her):

I’m going to sit here for a second. I’m just like, wow. All right. Okay. We just had a bio break, which is great, and I went and got a good look at my blog post that I wrote way back.

Jenn (she/they):

That’s why I wrote this question.

Tiana (she/her):

I love this. I love this. Okay, so above board, I’m a neurodivergent person, and I’m not sure exactly what kind of neurodivergences I have. But it’s been an amusing experience because I have a lot of friends who identify as autistic and have diagnosed some of them as autistic. Recently I’ve been saying things like, “I think I might be a bit autistic,” and all of them have been going, “Yeah.”

But I do have to say that the feelings that I feel in relation to the possibility that I might be further along on the autism spectrum that I thought I was, the feelings are not like, oh, I’m torn up by that or I feel conflicted about it. It’s the fact that anytime I say it to somebody, they’re just like, “Yeah.” They’re just like, “We knew.” I’m just like, “Oh God. How? Why?” But then also, it’s really amusing to me. It cracks me up every time. But the fact of the matter is that the fact that I can be facing new knowledge about myself that can be in contention with just the world in general, but also who I thought I was and not crumble in the face of it, not have it completely rock my world, not have it be something that stops me from doing things, is primarily because I have been practicing liberation of myself from systems of oppression and being told who I’m supposed to be.

And so past me is sometimes really cool. I’m like, “Hey, past Tiana. You said something really great,” and I forget about it. Future Tiana, now Tiana comes back and goes, “Wow, that’s amazing.”

Chavonne (she/her):

That’s Jenn all the time.

Jenn (she/they):

Yep. That’s my life.

Chavonne (she/her):

Sorry.

Jenn (she/they):

Guess who’s autistic. Guess who’s autistic.

Tiana (she/her):

Oh, boy. Well, we’re just going to put that coin into my little, another coin into the autistic bank.

Jenn (she/they):

I don’t know if you’ve taken the RAADS-R or if you’ve considered that. It’s the most affirming experience I’ve ever had.

Tiana (she/her):

Interesting. I’m going to have to look at that.

Jenn (she/they):

It’s RAADS-R, and that’s basically the website. It’s multiple tests that are like, are you socially masking? Is that why you have trouble seeing this about yourself? It’s a really cool self exploration. It’s not so standardized. It is.

Tiana (she/her):

Oh, wow.

Jenn (she/they):

Also, it’s targeted for people who are not normally diagnosed, so usually assigned female at birth.

Tiana (she/her):

I love this. Well, we’re going to have that in the show notes, I dictate for folks.

Chavonne (she/her):

Yes.

Jenn (she/they):

Yes. Yeah. If you ever want to talk about it or explore, it’s a special trust of mine.

Tiana (she/her):

Okay.

Jenn (she/they):

It’s beautiful.

Chavonne (she/her):

I love it.

Tiana (she/her):

This is awesome.

Tiana (she/her):

It’s beautiful.

Chavonne (she/her):

I love it.

Tiana (she/her):

This is awesome. Yeah. So, now I have something I’m going to do tomorrow. But basically, yeah. I mean, liberation as a relationship is a really strong phrase, and actually this was supposed to be the first of a series. And in classic Tiana fashion, I conceptualized something as a series, dropped the first one, and then stumble like hell on that sophomore release. It’s the worst because the follow-up to liberation as a relationship is liberation as a religion. And …

Chavonne (she/her):

Okay.

Tiana (she/her):

Oh, Chavonne, I liked your face. That was good.

Chavonne (she/her):

Okay. Sorry.

Tiana (she/her):

Yeah. I’m going to put a pin on that one because as I was writing about it, I was like, “Oh, hey, we’re having feelings that we weren’t prepared for. We’re going to let this one marinate.”

Chavonne (she/her):

Interesting.

Tiana (she/her):

But no, I mean, I fully believe it. Liberation is a religion.

Chavonne (she/her):

I’m so interested in that.

Tiana (she/her):

I know.

Jenn (she/they):

Let’s put a pin in it.

Tiana (she/her):

Yeah. In my head, I’m just like, “Oh, I can just hear the people coming for me. I’m like, “That’s all right. Come at me, bro. Let’s have this conversation. I like it.”

Jenn (she/they):

That actually makes me think intuitive eating as a religion. Health at every size is a religion.

Tiana (she/her):

Very.

Jenn (she/they):

They can get so inclusive that they’re extremely exclusive and cult-like, just speaking of our cult leader eras, like we were talking about before recording.

Tiana (she/her):

I’m just going to sip this tea.

Jenn (she/they):

I’m not being serious. I’m not being serious, but there’s definitely some similar vibration in the air about this.

Chavonne (she/her):

No, but really, I mean, honestly, it’s a cult. It’s all a cult. Is your cult for good?

Jenn (she/they):

If there’s a wrongness, there’s a cult.

Chavonne (she/her):

Right? I mean, is there literally, is your cult a cult for good, or is your cult a cult where we’re all going to drink the Kool-Aid and die together? Which cult are you?

Jenn (she/they):

Which cult?

Chavonne (she/her):

Cult 45.

Jenn (she/they):

I love that.

Chavonne (she/her):

Oh my goodness. I love that. Oh my god. I so love it.

Tiana (she/her):

Liberation is a relationship though. It’s a lot of things. Liberation is a lot of things, but basically liberation is a relationship because it affects you in so many different ways.

When we say relationship, most people think automatically romantic relationship and specifically romantic relationship a la Hallmark, boy meets girl, boy falls in love with girl, whatever. But the fact is we all have so many different types and kinds of relationships because there are so many different types and kinds of relationships.

It’s not just your romantic relationship. There are sexual relationships that don’t have romance. There are romantic relationships that don’t have sex. There are platonic romantic relationships, and that’s all within the sphere of romantic relationships. But it’s like anytime that you are interacting with someone or something else, that’s a relationship.

Did that relationship happen for seconds or did that relationship happen for years and decades? These are all relationships. And liberation’s a relationship.This is fun. This is always fun when y’all like to ask me these questions where you’re like, “Hey, you said this thing that is profound and sort of wacky. Can you explain it?” And I’m just like, “Oh, no.”

Jenn (she/they):

The best kind of wacky. That’s why I want to know more.

Tiana (she/her):

Yeah but it’s like, oh, no, I totally did say that thing, and as I’m trying to explain it, I realize that I don’t really have a real definition.

Jenn (she/they):

Okay. You don’t have to, and you can disagree with yourself. I disagree with past me a lot.

Tiana (she/her):

Yeah. There are podcast episodes that are from early on in my podcast where I’m just like, “Oh, no, maybe you don’t really feel that way anymore.” And I’m just like, “You know what? We’re just going to … ” It was a journey, and I’m sort of okay with the fact that I have been on this journey and I want there to be more okay-ness with folks being in a different place.

Jenn (she/they):

That sounds liberating to me, just so you know.

Tiana (she/her):

Yes, and I think that’s the thing, right? So liberation is a relationship because none of us know how to do liberation. We’re making it up as we go along.

Jenn (she/they):

Just like parenting and being a kiddo in a body and just all…

Chavonne (she/her):

All the things. I love that.

Jenn (she/they):

I didn’t notice that theme.

Chavonne (she/her):

I love that.

Tiana (she/her):

I plucked that one out of the sky just now. Good.

Jenn (she/they):

That resonates so much. That feels like an instinct actually, the way that you said that almost. Relationship does not have to have a specific definition and neither does liberation for them to be equated with each other. That’s often something we require logically. We’re like, “Well, what is liberation and what is relationship, and then how do we align those two?” What I’m really hearing is it’s like a feeling, a set of sensations, both liberation, which is such an embodiment, and relationship as well, including our most intimate, with ourselves. Each and every dark thing, each and every light thing, everything we think and feel and all of that, we have access to all of that stuff, right? Depending on our capacity. We have that capability. We have different capacities. It’s like in flux, it’s like it is a nebulous reality.

It’s part of the discomfort around it, I think, is that it’s so almost intangible except to the individual in our own experiences with it, so it’s a hard thing to teach each other about or fully define for each other. I think that’s kind of cool. I find that freeing.

There’s a part of me that’s like, how fucking dare you? I need to know every single detail so that I can properly align myself and regulate. There’s that part. But there’s a huge part of me, the felt sense part of me, the embodied part of me that’s like, that’s interesting though. It’s interesting that it’s there to explore versus there to land. Right? It’s just interesting how … my favorite word, Chavonne, how spacious it feels. It’s an evolving thing, and that kind of feels like it matches being a human being, not a human doing, which would be like, do the liberation, do the relationship. It’s the being part.

Or at least, I don’t know, it’s like, “Oh, is that an instinct?” And maybe is now my instinct has responded, but I don’t know. That feels … it gives me the good kind of chills to just ponder it as what … even if there’s part of it that is always going to be beyond human understanding, and what if that’s okay too? Right? That’s the kind of generous energy you have around that. That’s what I stepped into. Those are just my words for it.

Tiana (she/her):

Generous energy. I like that.

Chavonne (she/her):

Oh, I like that. Generous energy.

Jenn (she/they):

Doesn’t she have generous energy? You totally do.

Chavonne (she/her):

Definitely do. Absolutely.

Tiana (she/her):

Thank you very much. I just …

Jenn (she/they):

You’re like, “Oh,” and then out oozes the generosity. You’re like … I don’t know. Let’s hold space for it. Right? Even the word generative, right? What can we create from that?

Chavonne (she/her):

No, exactly.

Jenn (she/they):

It feels like a really strong value or something for you. It’s so connected. It’s something I really connect to about you.

Tiana (she/her):

Oh, this is great. I like this. I like this very much. I enjoy it when people tell me about myself because I’m like, “Oh, yeah, me too.”

Jenn (she/they):

Me too. It’s my favorite thing. I’m like, “Really?”

Tiana (she/her):

Yeah. Well, I mean, as much time as I spend looking at myself and being in conversation with myself, I still don’t see myself fully. And there’s always the real fact that regardless of what I see, everyone sees me differently because everyone is seeing me with their own lenses, and I will never see myself the way anyone else ever sees me.

And so it’s a beautiful thing to be able to be in that kind of relationship where you are feeding back to me what I am giving through the lens that you perceive it. And this is relational. This is what relating is about.

And the thing is, liberation is a relationship because we are also oppressed in the same way that we are liberated, and oppression and liberation are opposites completely. And I fully believe you cannot have one without the other. Trisha Hersey said that too. Trisha Hersey said, “You cannot have oppression when you have liberation. You cannot have them together,” and I agree with this.

So basically the long and the short of it is I also have another podcast episode, which is other people are in the way of your body liberation. I was like, hey, feeling sassy. I was feeling sassy with that one, but that one also took me a year before I was able to put it out into the world because the first pass of it wasn’t ready and I had to come back to it, and I was like, “Okay, now I see you.”

But the thing is, why do we need liberation in the first place? We need liberation because we have been put into boxes by others. We never put ourselves in a box, on our own. Even if it is you who chose the box you are in, you chose that box because of external stimulus.

Jenn (she/they):

Absolutely.

Tiana (she/her):

And that is a relationship.

Chavonne (she/her):

Yeah. Dang.

Tiana (she/her):

You are defining yourself.

Jenn (she/they):

It really is.

Tiana (she/her):

You are defining yourself against what you are perceiving. That is a relationship. So liberation is a relationship in the exact same way. I can only liberate myself because I have been oppressed, and that requires a change in interaction between the people that are around me, between the world that I am in, between how I be and how I do.

Jenn (she/they):

Yes.

Tiana (she/her):

And basically it is always a feedback. It’s me sending, it bouncing off of something, and then me receiving. This is relationship.

Jenn (she/they):

Yes. It’s the back that’s so important. Yes.

Tiana (she/her):

Oh, wow. Word.

Jenn (she/they):

Oh, I feel that. Right? It’s like mirroring is in a mirror. If it only goes, bing, it’s got to come back.

Chavonne (she/her):

It’s got to come back. Absolutely.

Jenn (she/they):

That’s my mirror noise, apparently. You’re welcome. Bing. I thought that was beautiful.

Chavonne (she/her):

I do too. Wow.

Tiana (she/her):

Thank you.

Jenn (she/they):

Wow.

[1:37:00]

Chavonne (she/her):

As we’re wrapping up, what are you up to? What are you doing? How do we find you? What’s up next for 2024, which I feel didn’t really start until the first?

Jenn (she/they):

This very month we’re recording, which is February.

Chavonne (she/her):

I refuse to acknowledge January right now.

Tiana (she/her):

Look, I understand this 100%. Actually, I created a thing specifically because of the necessity to survive January. So I have … a few years ago, I put together something that I called love notes for the new year.

Chavonne (she/her):

I remember those.

Jenn (she/they):

That’s my favorite.

Tiana (she/her):

Every single day. I released what was, I think, an affirmation. We talked about them actually in the first season, and what I realized was that this is a beautiful set of actually tiny teachings. I got that the other day. I was like, “They’re not affirmations. They’re not just affirming. They are also teaching in these tiny little pockets.” And I have reflection prompts with them as well, and I was like, you know what? January is not the only time we need to reset and rejuvenate. We are only doing it in January because the calendar says so and marketing and capitalism says, this is a good time to start pushing things, but sometimes you just need to fucking reset in March or April or July. Things just feel too messy and overwhelming, and you’re all out here. You need to come back in.

So there are no longer love notes for the new year. There are now love notes for a new year, and they are available all year round.

Jenn (she/they):

Yay.

Chavonne (she/her):

I love that so much.

Tiana (she/her):

Absolutely. So you can come and get you some love notes where I will send you 31 days of these affirmations/tiny teachings with accompanying reflection prompts, literally to help you come back to yourself, because the new year is not about a new you. The new year is about a new relationship between the you that you are.

Chavonne (she/her):

I love that so much. I love that you just decide when it is time I’m going to do this.

Tiana (she/her):

Exactly. Absolutely. So yeah.

Jenn (she/they):

So we don’t have to go by the arbitrary white-centered Gregorian calendar?

Chavonne (she/her):

Not at all. Not at all.

Jenn (she/they):

Oh, you mean there’s at least 70 others that we know of that are written, but you can make up your own at any time as well?

Tiana (she/her):

Absolutely. Absolutely. You just say, “Hey, you know what? Today is the day that I need to reset,” and if that day is July 17th, then make it … let it be, then it shall be. This is the first day of your new year.

Jenn (she/they):

I love that, because you could decide that on July 16th.

Tiana (she/her):

Absolutely.

Chavonne (she/her):

That’s so cool.

Tiana (she/her):

So that’s available to you if you are interested in that, and it’s got sliding scale pricing so that I can continue to offer this good work, and if you choose a higher tier, then you’re just helping me provide this beautiful stuff to people who maybe don’t have financial capacity right now. So there’s that.

But yeah, so that’s the thing that is always going on, and I’m really excited that it lives out there in the world.

Jenn (she/they):

They’re my favorite. That’s my favorite Tiana offering, always will be. It’s my favorite, favorite, favorite.

Tiana (she/her):

Thank you. We’re currently doing a Fat Freedom group read of Rest is Resistance by Trisha Hersey, and by the time this episode comes out, it’s going to be a little too late for folks to get in. However, we will definitely be doing another group read in the near future because Vanessa Rochelle Lewis, her book, Reclaiming Ugly, just dropped.

Jenn (she/they):

Did it?

Tiana (she/her):

Oh my god. I’ve already got my copy. I’m so excited.

Jenn (she/they):

Oh, that yellow cover.

Tiana (she/her):

Yes. And it’s like with the word ugly just so big, I’m just like, “I’m so here for this.” So I’m just like … I know Vanessa and she’s a beautiful human being, and I’m like, everybody needs to know the gorgeousness that Vanessa’s putting out in the world. So I’m really excited.

We’re going to put a group read around that after rest is resistance is completed and I get a little rest. So that’ll be coming probably in the summer, late spring, early summer, and I’m just going to be dropping a bunch of different little things that you can do on your own.

Jenn (she/they):

I love that.

Tiana (she/her):

Because Tiana did a huge thing last year. I released the sophomore album finally, three years later … five years later. Five years later, I released the second installment of the In This Body Virtual Conference, and last year what we did was Finding Liberation, and that was … it was such a good time. I had such a good time putting it together, but also it was so taxing because I was bedbound because I was having horrible pain flares …

Jenn (she/they):

Oh, no.

Tiana (she/her):

… because I am a person who has tendonitis in her feet, and I couldn’t walk for a couple of months there, but I was producing a conference and it burned me out. It burned me out. So this year, Tiana is taking rest as much as possible, but in order to keep the work going and keep the work accessible to people, I am working on releasing a bunch of little tiny tidbits where you can come in and pick the one that makes sense to you to be working on right now.

And so they’ll look a lot of different ways. There will probably be another version of Love Notes where you’ll get some tiny teachings with reflection prompts and others will be like audio courses.

Jenn (she/they):

I love that.

Tiana (she/her):

So those are things to look forward to for me. In addition, I’m going to attempt to open the doors to the Fat Freedom practice space this year. This is a labor that has … oh, boy. The gestation of this has been slow. It’s taken a lot of different forms, and I’ve tried to figure out exactly how to make it work in a way that is both accessible and sustainable for me.

Jenn (she/they):

For you.

Chavonne (she/her):

Yes.

Tiana (she/her):

For me. Because …

Chavonne (she/her):

For your capacity. Yes.

Tiana (she/her):

Absolutely.

Jenn (she/they):

I can feel that shift. I can feel it.

Tiana (she/her):

Absolutely. Because as much as I want all of us to be liberated, I also need to be here on the other side as much as I want other people to be on the other side, and if I’m burning myself out along the way, look, no, that’s not liberatory. Martyrdom is not liberatory.

Chavonne (she/her):

Say that again.

Tiana (she/her):

Just going to say that. So yeah, if you don’t think that I am insane, come join me in the Cult of Liberation, and you can find me … mostly I hang out on Instagram. Okay, I’m a lie. I don’t hang out on Instagram, but I put stuff there and also get notifications when folks contact me on Instagram. So you can find me on Instagram right @IAmTianaDodson. That’s my number one channel that I keep up to date.

But I also have a website. If you are a person who likes to read a lot and see a lot less pictures, my website is tianadodson.com. You can also find me on TikTok. It’s old stuff, but boy was I having fun for a hot second on TikTok. So you can come see me on TikTok. I am also there @IamTianaDodson. And yeah, look out … I have a list. You should totally join my list because I do actually tell my list stuff and you’ll be updated and notified about things that are happening. In addition, I tell stories in my emails sometimes.

Jenn (she/they):

I love that. Beautiful stories.

Tiana (she/her):

You want to really … thank you, damn. If you really want to know what I have going on, there’s that. But I also have a podcast. I feel … I’m like, wow, there’s so many things. So yeah, there’s a lot.

Jenn (she/they):

You’re doing the things. Yeah.

Tiana (she/her):

Yeah. See, that’s a thing. I’m doing the things except for none of the things … so here’s the other thing. Even if you subscribe to all my things, I don’t think you will ever be over-inundated with information and content from me, because Tiana has no consistency.

Jenn (she/they):

It’s my major consistency.

Tiana (she/her):

Absolutely. I’m so consistently inconsistent.

Jenn (she/they):

Oh my gosh. You’re the best.

Tiana (she/her):

So basically like, look, you’re not going to be getting an email every week. I’m not going to be flooding your inbox. I’m not going to be filling up your new podcast episodes. I’m not going to be like … your feed is going to be [inaudible] chunked with me. Look, I think I released two podcasts episodes last year. I’ve had a podcast for eight years. It’s got 26 episodes.

Chavonne (she/her):

Yeah, it’s perfect. It’s perfect.

Tiana (she/her):

Yeah, exactly. So I release when I am filled with the passion and being moved by the spirit and have things to say. I’m not plucking things out of the sky to talk about … not publicly at least. And so yeah, come find me. Absolutely. I try. I try. Sometimes I need to talk out more. I talk in a lot. But basically, yeah, come hang out with me because also I’m going to try to do more low-key let’s just hang out and do stuff things.

Chavonne (she/her):

I love that.

Tiana (she/her):

Because yeah, I need people.

Jenn (she/they):

Oh, felt, yes.

Chavonne (she/her):

Yeah.

Jenn (she/they):

I love that. I like the transparency about that too. I like that you get to be a person who gets liberated too.

Tiana (she/her):

Yo, I have some values that I’ve been real focused on, and I mean, kindness is paramount, absolutely. But being wholly human is so, so, so important to me. I don’t want to be a guru. I don’t want to be on a pedestal. I am a person. Please don’t pedestal me because I will fall down. I will fuck up because people do.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah. The pair of social nature of that is quite a thing these days, that pressure that we can feel. It’s like, wait, I’m just a person. I’m a whole person, just while we’re paying attention.

Tiana (she/her):

I do poop. Farting does happen.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah. We do metabolize and digest.

Tiana (she/her):

It smells bad too. I mean, just keeping it real.

Chavonne (she/her):

Keeping it real.

Jenn (she/they):

I’m not sure what …

Tiana (she/her):

But not #keepitreal, but no, like really, really …

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah. I’m not sure what people are expecting, but that just sounds like the right expectation.

Chavonne (she/her):

That was the best. That was the best.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah. Thank you, Tiana, for being with us again. Oh my gosh.

Chavonne (she/her):

Thank you so much, it’s just been awesome.

Tiana (she/her):

Thank you all for having me.

Chavonne (she/her):

We had such a great time.

Tiana (she/her):

I love it. I love it.

Chavonne (she/her):

So we’re going to do it sooner than three years from now.

Tiana (she/her):

Look, time is an illusion. We’ll get there.

Jenn (she/they):

Yeah. Yeah. My prefrontal cortex has no idea what time it is or where in time I am, and that’s just how it is.

Chavonne (she/her):

Absolutely.

Jenn (she/they):

Thank you for …

Tiana (she/her):

Thank you so much. This has been such a good …

Jenn (she/they):

… for your generative space and you’re sharing and your beautiful storytelling. You did a lot of that today. I love your storytelling. Love it.

Tiana (she/her):

Always. I could just sit here and crack up forever.

Jenn (she/they):

Yes. Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Tiana (she/her):

Y’all are the best.

Chavonne (she/her):

No, you are.

Chavonne: Thank you for listening to Season 4 of the Embodiment for the Rest of Us podcast. Episodes will be published the first Thursday of every month-ish (in case we need some wiggle room) wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also find all podcast content (including the transcript and show notes) at our website, EmbodimentForTheRestOfUs.com.

Jenn: And follow us on social media, on both Twitter @EmbodimentUs and on Instagram @EmbodimentForTheRestOfUs. We look forward to continuing this evolving and expanding conversation in our next episode.