Embodiment for the Rest of Us – Season 4, Episode 1: Season 4 Intro Episode
Thursday, February 1, 2024
Jenn (she/they) and Chavonne (she/her) introduce Season 4!
Content Warning: None in this episode
Trigger Warnings: None in this episode
A few highlights:
2:02: Jenn and Chavonne share their words for 2024
20:27: Chavonne and Jenn discuss exploring disability and neurodiversity in Season 4
32:46: Jenn and Chavonne discuss their commitment to justice and liberation related to the most marginalized humans and bodies in the world
Links from this episode:
How To Keep House While Drowning
Music: “Bees and Bumblebees (Abeilles et Bourdons), Op. 562” by Eugène Dédé through the Creative Commons License
Please follow us on social media:
Twitter: @embodimentus
Instagram: @embodimentfortherestofus
CAPTIONS
Season 4 Episode 1 is 45 minutes and 46 seconds (45:46) long.
Jenn: Welcome to our 4th season of the Embodiment for the Rest of Us podcast, a series exploring topics and intersections that exist in fat, queer, and disability liberation (and beyond!!)! You can consider this an anti-oppressive and generative space full of repair and intention.
Chavonne: In this podcast, we interview those with lived experience and professionals alike to learn how they are affecting radical change and how we can all make this world a safer and more welcoming place for all humans who are historically and currently marginalized and should be centered, listened to, and supported.
Jenn: Captions and content warnings are provided in the show notes for each episode, including specific time stamps, so that you can skip triggering content any time that feels supportive to you! This podcast is a representation of our co-host and guest experiences and may not be reflective of yours. These conversations are not medical advice, and are not a substitute for mental health or nutrition support.
Chavonne: In addition, the conversations held here are not exhaustive in their scope or levels of inquiry. These topics, these perspectives are not complete and are always in process. These are just highlights! Just like posts on social media, individual articles, or any other podcast – this is just a snapshot of the full picture.
Jenn: We are always interested in any feedback on this process, especially if you feel something needs to be addressed. We invite you to email us at Listener@EmbodimentForTheRestOfUs.com with any comments, requests, or concerns.
[1:46]
Jenn:
Hello and welcome to the fourth season of Embodiment for the Rest of Us, the podcast. Yes. Yay. I can’t believe we’re in a fourth season, yet here we are.
Chavonne:
Somehow.
Jenn:
It’s going fast, but it’s also going slow. I like that mix.
[2:02]
Chavonne:
Mm-hmm. We’ve made a lot of changes this season, including publishing monthly on the first Thursday of each month and making ourselves sweaty nervous, asking some incredible guests we deeply admire to help us expand these conversations. A lot of this has to do with our words of the year for 2024. Let’s explore them. Jenn, what’s your word or words for the year?
Jenn:
Exactly. You know me, of course I have more than one. Chavonne and I played around with our words of the year from a Morgan Harper Nichols… One of those things that flashes between images and you take a screen cap to see which one is yours. And so mine was resonance. And I actually did it three times and it was still resonance. It’s always resonance. So I was like, okay, that resonates.
So resonance for me is a synonym for some of my most important values, like curiosity and interests. Like, what resonates? Let’s follow that. It just helps me stay intuitive. It helps me stay more relaxed. It helps me find more of a sense of peace within myself, and it helps me be more available to other people without feeling drained. What resonates as a really nice thread for me to follow, so I love that.
And of course I have a second word because when I am in session with clients… So I’m bringing on a new wave of people and I just know that I’m paying attention to what I’ve been saying, and I have been talking about functionality. Like tangible accessibility, reach out and literally grab it type stuff. But mostly this is inspired by KC Davis’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning, a very lovely, very short 80-page book.
Chavonne:
Really need to read.
Jenn:
KC doesn’t know I’m talking about them, but it’s one of the most recommended books by me in helping people support an intuitive relationship with anything, and I just re-listened to it myself. I own the book, I have the audiobook, I just absorbed it again. And she gives incredible permission for a space that you occupy being functional for you. What’s the point of a house if it’s not functional for you? If you’re like, “This area of my house stresses me out,” change it. Make it functional for you.
So I’m going to be moving in the middle of this season-ish, and so I need things to be functional where I am. I’m in a pretty cluttered space because we’re transitional and we always have been in the house that we’re in, so we’re going to have our own house. And so I don’t want a bunch of things to go to that house. It’s literally next door everyone, so I don’t have to move very far, but-
Chavonne:
It’s still a lot of stuff though. It’s hard. Yeah.
Jenn:
… But I just want them to exist here. I’m like, trash it, recycle it, donate it. I have ADHD, so my momentum about goals like, “Get rid of a trash bag a week,” that’s where I first landed, has not been that effective. So words. A word like functional, and I basically repeat it to myself while I’m doing the task is like… My office is about to be a shared space in the evenings, and so I’m like, what can go? What’s now functional for this shared space? I’m going to have an office that does not have a bed in it in the new house because there’s an extra room, and so what will be functional there is different than what’s functional here. But it’s just really supportive to me and it also resonates. The words go nicely together.
If I’m going to be in this space of justice and liberation and intuition, I don’t know, there’s this new place where it lands differently for me and resonates for me differently and functions for me differently. So it feels really powerful. I’m also noticing, so this episode is going to air the first Thursday of February here in 2024, and later that month I will have my 10-year sober-versary.
Chavonne:
Wow. Congratulations.
Jenn:
Thank you.
Chavonne:
That’s amazing.
Jenn:
Just sitting in the spaciousness of that and all the things I’ve gained in the last 10 years and then things I’ve lost lovingly in the last 10 years, and just how it feels to inhabit my body without alcohol in it is pretty powerful for me. To have something as simple as resonance and functionality sit for me is just mind-blowing in itself.
And it also leans towards what I’m interested in. Training other people, webinars, things that you and I are in talks with people about.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Jenn:
Having interns, supervising, getting back to that kind of energy. I really like that energy. I like that space. That also feels like it matches because I want to encourage that in other people too and take pressure off. So just… Yeah, what resonates? What’s functional? It feels like questions I can ask myself.
Chavonne:
Wow. Wow.
Jenn:
So those are all my words for my words.
Chavonne:
No, I love them and I think that resonance and functional goes so well hand in hand, and I don’t think I ever would’ve seen that connection, seen that relationship if you hadn’t explained it that way. It makes complete sense. If things are functional, it’s going to resonate for you. And if things resonate for you, it’s going to end up being functional in some way. I think that’s beautiful. Really, really remarkable.
Jenn:
It’s simpler. Complex, and complicatedness is becoming less and less interesting to me over time because the world’s already full of it, and that’s one of the ways in which our societies are extremely oppressive, and so it just kind of bores me. It’s like I got bored with the complicated stuff, so these sit in a place that’s not that, right? Even if it’s not the whole opposite in terms of simplicity, it’s still somewhere else in that direction.
Chavonne:
I love that. I think these are perfect words for you. I’m really excited.
Jenn:
Thank you. This book, this How to Keep a House While Drowning, I listen to it while I start to find my rhythm and momentum for trying to make a space more functional. It’s constant permission giving, right? Like, “There’s only five things in any room.” I’m like, “What do you mean there’s only five things in any room? Oh, I guess I’ll start with the five things.”
And of course, because I’m a nerd, I also have… Again, this is not an advertisement. I’m just showing Chavonne. Oh, where is it? Oh, here it is. They have these amazing room resets charts for grownups. So these are stickers that I’m going to put on magnets, but this one is a room reset. There’s only five things in a room and all the other tasks I can do.
Chavonne:
Oh my gosh.
Jenn:
And closing duties, like a body respect. How do you now help tomorrow you? Aren’t these amazing? I can send you the link, Chavonne.
Chavonne:
Yeah, because I’m going to buy that today. Yeah, I’m like, what?
Jenn:
For functionality, if I can play with something like a magnet and I have a magnetic space here in this room as well as our main fridge, and you can just move things. I think the charts are like you move things from one side to the other, so I can just move them. You don’t have to do the same ones. You can reset them. It’s very functional. And when it’s gamified, it resonates for me.
Chavonne:
Yes. I was going to say, I wonder if it also will give that dopamine hit that you get-
Jenn:
Oh, it does.
Chavonne:
… Of checking things off. Yes, absolutely. And it’s very tactile. I really like that.
Jenn:
Yeah, I love tactile stuff.
Chavonne:
I really, really like that.
Jenn:
The hand eye, hand eye, repeat.
Chavonne:
Yes. Yes, absolutely.
Jenn:
And there’s a different space of resonance in that because I am an adult diagnosed person with neurodivergence, and I didn’t get to play around with stuff like that or understand that I might need to support like that when I was a kid. And so it feels like I’m playing with multiple versions of myself at once, and so I’m resonating across the versions of myself. It’s very healing. Really, really healing.
Chavonne:
That’s fantastic. That’s amazing.
Jenn:
And it’s only an 80-page book. I mean, everything by KC Davis is amazing. Someday we will have to have KC Davis on the podcast. I’m just going to say it because that will scare the shit out of me, but I would totally take it on.
Chavonne:
I love that manifestation.
Jenn:
Everything they say I admire. They’re a really thoughtful and intentional human being.
Chavonne:
I only knew about this one book, so I’ll definitely have to look into them even more, which I haven’t read. But also other things that I haven’t read that I’m really excited about.
Jenn:
It’s only a three-hour audiobook and I listen to things at very fast speed. So it’s more like an hour and a half to two hours because my brain’s too fast. Not too fast, it’s faster. It’s faster. Okay. So those are my words about my words. I’m actually even noticing that it feels functional for me and it resonates right now as I’m saying it. It’s a really cool, real-time experience that has been fleeting in my life, but I become really curious and interested in real-time experiences that actually support me.
Chavonne:
Wow. I love that, and you deserve that. And I think that I can’t wait to see how that’ll change things.
Jenn:
Yeah.
Chavonne:
Absolutely.
Jenn:
And this is also a thank you to all my therapists that have existed in my life, especially my current therapist, who will be on the podcast this season.
Chavonne:
Love her.
Jenn:
Can’t Wait. We did Chavonne’s therapist, now we’re doing mine.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Jenn:
Just a support for understanding why things feel the way they feel and why we might need what we need is so grounding for me. It’s amazing. So, it’s great. I’m really enjoying hearing myself talk about this, which makes me feel like a conceited snob, but I don’t mean it that way at all. I mean, it’s just nice to feel and think in concert and have them feel really similar and a match. That’s been very fleeting, so it’s fun to access. Even before this I was like, “Chavonne, I already have everything prepared. I’m totally organized. Here’s our tasks,” and we’re like, “Who are you, Jenn?”
Chavonne:
What is happening today?
Jenn:
I guess I’m a more relaxed me and I guess this is what it’s like.
Chavonne:
It’s beautiful. It’s such a great thing to witness. It’s so cool to witness.
Jenn:
I’ve been trying to achieve this through anxiety and stress, but it didn’t work. It’s really simple. Now that I’m just doing it, I’m relaxed. Yeah. So how about you? What’s your word for the year, or words if other words come up? I’m just curious about your word.
Chavonne:
Yeah, so I also did this exercise via Morgan Harper Nichols post because Jenn sent it to me. I got preparation twice and I said, “Absolutely not.” Ignored completely.
Jenn:
No.
Chavonne:
I was like, “I don’t want it. I don’t want it. I’m just rebuking it. But I did sit with it a little bit. And on New Year’s Eve, my husband and I, we have a tradition where we listen to our top songs on Amazon or Spotify, whichever one we are using, and then we do a jigsaw puzzle because we’re just old nerds and I love it. But that’s what we do on New Year’s Eve.
Jenn:
Because you’re adorable.
Chavonne:
It’s so much fun. And so we were talking about what we were looking forward to this year, what we had learned in 2023, and I said 2023 was a lot in some ways, but in the way that it’s ending, it feels like I’m in a really good space. Things feel really comfortable. Things feel really like they’re moving in the right direction. Just some fine-tuning, so next day I was like, “I guess maybe it’s attunement,” and I wasn’t sure. I was texting Jenn, texting you, of course, about it. And then I pulled a tarot card and it was the Hierophant. I never know if I say that word right.
Jenn:
Sure.
Chavonne:
No clue. Cool. Yeah. I’m always like… But that card. And I was like, fine. Okay, I’m going with it. Because there are different, obviously, interpretations, but for me what came up was this… Not tradition, but maybe this creation of how things need to be. To me, that’s attunement. Things are in a really good space. There’s a few things that just need a little bit of fine-tuning in my career and my personal life and relationships, et cetera, et cetera. So attunement has been the word.
And yesterday I had therapy and talked about this and talked about how I felt like I was in this place of inertia. And she said, “Maybe it’s not inertia, maybe it’s just that you are working on your sticktuitiveness.” Because I love starting new things. I love starting a new podcast. I love hiring new staff. I love starting a new project, and then things fall off.
Jenn:
And then [inaudible]. Yeah.
Chavonne:
So to me, my attunement right now is kind of sticking with things and seeing things through a little bit more, which I realize as I’m speaking out loud is kind of like preparation. I’m just preparing to keep going. So that’s kind of where I’m this year. So I love where my life is. I’m turning 40 this year. I’m excited about it. I feel like I’ve been 40 for a while. I’m on this-
Jenn:
Yeah, we can’t wait to have you in the 40s. We’ve been missing you.
Chavonne:
I’m so ready. Let’s just do this. So it just feels like a place of attunement and finding my better groove, even though I feel like I’m in a groove right now, so that’s where it’s going. And even in the podcast it’s showing up because-
Jenn:
Yes, it is.
Chavonne:
… We realized we were doing a little too much last year because we started the year not doing what we thought we’d be doing by the end. Yes, we definitely took on a lot of stuff. So now it’s just attuning how to make the podcast work for us and continue to be something that we love. Something that I love, something that is a dream come true every time I get to be a part of it. So attunement, and I guess in turn preparation in some way to continue doing this.
Jenn:
No, I love that.
Chavonne:
Yeah. I was like, “Absolutely not,” and I’m like, “Oh, all right. Yeah.”
Jenn:
Yeah. The practicalities of things are not necessarily a dopamine boost.
Chavonne:
Yes.
Jenn:
And they’re still supportive to other dopamine boosts. So that made me want to ask you a question. Do you feel like entering 2024 in the start of 2024, you’re more yourself than ever? Because that’s kind of what I was hearing you say.
Chavonne:
Absolutely. Yeah. I have never felt so comfortable in my own skin, comfortable in my own way of interacting with this world. Absolutely. And it’s such a gift, which I hear is 40 is about.
Jenn:
Yes, it is. Oh my gosh, you’re absolutely right. Attunement might be a really good word for the whole decade. I’m going to ponder that.
You were reminding me about intuition, instincts, intuitiveness, that people often talk about, and this comes even from the Intuitive Eating book, honestly, they come from a place of saying, “Just find those instincts,” like they’re already there. But we have to tune into them. We have to practice with them. It’s quite a slog, actually. We have to get practical before things feel intuitive. We’re born with survival instincts, but we’re supposed to learn the rest. We’re not gifted with them at birth. We have to actively learn them, be mirroring people around us and all that kind of stuff.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Jenn:
So I also love that because you’re taking on supervisory roles, we’ve talked where you’ve said, “Oh my gosh, I don’t know if I could be a supervisor,” which is a totally normal thing to think before were are a supervisor.
Chavonne:
Right.
Jenn:
I have no experience, so I don’t know what it’s going to feel like.
Chavonne:
Mm-hmm.
Jenn:
And I said to you, “You’re a great supervisor.” I already know, and you are a great supervisor but I can hear it’s because you’re tuning into yourself. And actually that’s really similar to what I’m thinking about, my words, is that I also feel like more myself than I’ve ever felt like that. I was telling you earlier it’s a lot calmer inside of myself, so I can actually pay attention to it instead of running away. That’s really helpful. Again, thank you therapy.
There’s just a lot of… I mean, spaciousness and expansiveness. We talk about those two words almost more than anything else, but I was just noticing that it has a really similar feeling to what we mean when we talk about those words, the way we’re talking about our words of the year. And this is the second year in a row that you and I have done words of the year together, or is it the third? I can’t remember. At least two.
Chavonne:
I think it’s probably… I can’t remember. Third.
Jenn:
I think it’s our third.
Chavonne:
Second.
Jenn:
I think it’s our third because I think the first time you and I both had a bunch of words and we weren’t sure, but then last year we were absolutely sure, and then this year we’re also sure. I was a hot mess in 2022, so that just makes sense. And it’s a beautiful addition to us exploring things together. Last year, your word from the year before of rest became such a huge part of our podcast, just sort of noticing that there’s a lot of… Again, spaciousness and expansiveness. I was going to try to find new words, but those are just the words I want.
Chavonne:
But they’re the best words. And you always-
Jenn:
They are the best words.
Chavonne:
… Come back to words that are very… I was going to say are very expansive. That’s not helpful, but yeah.
Jenn:
I’m very good at defining a word with the word that’s actually its root.
Chavonne:
Absolutely.
Jenn:
It’s a talent I have, right? In high school English they’re like, “You can’t define a word with the word,” and I’m like, but it really… That’s how it… It is it.
Chavonne:
That’s what it is. That’s what it does.
Jenn:
Yeah. Expansion is very expansive. I mean, it is. Right, but part of our growth as people, part of growing the conversations we want to have, part of exploring things together and experimenting is going to require a lot of spaciousness and expansiveness.
Humbleness jumped into the year last year. I remember at the beginning of the year, I was like, “I love being humbled.” I really do love being humbled. There’s really challenging things that come from that, but also it’s like, get to slough off these layers that were like, nah, that one wasn’t me. I like that.
Chavonne:
100%. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Jenn:
I like that a lot.
Chavonne:
I’m excited for us. Yeah.
Jenn:
Me too. I’m just reading what I wrote here. This is so parallel with our journeys as we learn and unlearned, like, yes, I agree.
Chavonne:
[inaudible], Jenn.
[20:27]
Jenn:
We’ve also noticed themes, like who we’re asking to come on the podcast. We’ve actually had quite a few intentional conversations before each of the beginnings of a season of how we would like to foster the conversations we want to have and then enhance them and scare ourselves with the sweaty nervousness of asking people that we greatly admire. And themes have emerged in that, and those are disability and neurodiversity, right? Things that we’re often exploring. I’m definitely exploring those two, and their relationship with each other.
So I wanted to talk about that, and I’m curious what shows up with you around disability and neurodiversity, which, I mean, neurodiversity can be a disability. I also mean disability that includes physicality that is outside of neurodivergence, although Neurodivergence has a physicality. Hyper mobility is a form of neurodivergence, for example. Just exploring the areas in the margins and in oppressive spaces that we are trying to have different conversations about is also part of this.
Chavonne:
Yeah. This is such a great question because you wrote it, but also it’s a great question, but I think exactly what you said. I really like being humbled too, and I really felt humbled when, in talking about this season, you brought up how much more you want to do work around disability. And it’s encouraged me, forced me honestly, to be more aware of my inherent ableism. I never would call myself ableist. That wouldn’t have been something that I would’ve said, “That’s who I am,” but it’s just there. And I think often… Now I’m feeling sweaty because calling myself out.
Jenn:
Call yourself out. This is a safe place to call yourself out. We’ve made it so.
Chavonne:
If I don’t think about it, that typically means I need to think about it. I need to have more of a conversation about it. I need to have more awareness of how I play into it. And I think that I feel really encouraged to do that, so I’m really excited. Not that it’s anyone’s job to educate me, but I’m excited to have conversation about it. I’m excited to do my own education, learning and unlearning.
So when it comes to disability, I feel really excited about learning more. I feel very aware of how I didn’t think of it enough, maybe because of my own level of ability. It’s just been really sitting with me since you brought it up, and I’m really excited about that. And I think in terms of neurodiversity, I know when we first met, if you hadn’t just gotten diagnosed with ADHD, you had been on the-
Jenn:
I did like two months after you and I met.
Chavonne:
You were just on the cusp of being it.
Jenn:
Yeah.
Chavonne:
Yeah. It was right around there.
Jenn:
I was waiting for my appointment when we-
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Jenn:
Yeah.
Chavonne:
You’ve been a part of my life so long. I’m like, is it the before after time? But I definitely personally pushed against learning more about it because I wasn’t ready to admit that that’s a part of my life too, which is, again, internalized ableism. But man, I’ve just got a lot to learn this year. But I’m really excited to delve into that too, and how that can play into the intersections of living in fat bodies or just existing in a world that is completely hampered by diet culture and weight discrimination. So I’m really excited to see how those interact with each other, how they can also be a part of each other.
I’m just really excited to learn more, and I think that it feels like a natural progression for us and I’m going to ask you as well, I wonder if we started with certain other identities because easier for us to navigate those because maybe we’re a part of them, maybe there’s more conversation about it, and now we’re moving into stuff that’s a little bit less discussed. At least for me, coming up for me right now.
Jenn:
Absolutely. I’ve always seen privilege as the reason why I can’t see things. It requires extremely intentional, purposeful, directional unlearning, and it’s going to probably need the cues from someone who does not have those same privileges. Because I mean, sometimes I may never be able to see it no matter how much I unlearn, unless I’m really listening to the voices of lived experience. Who is multiply marginalized and oppressed and is talking about it? I mean, there’s so many people talking about it. I mean, it’s everywhere.
Throughout our podcast, I’ve become a Twitter stalker of a lot of people because I’m like, “What do they have to say about this?” Right? Because COVID is a mass disabling reality. It’s not about if you’ll be disabled, it’s when. Aging as a general process in the body is also and when, not if. I can’t remember if I said that wrong, but anyways, when not if. Whatever I said first, that’s what I mean.
Chavonne:
You’re right, you’re right.
Jenn:
And so it’s something for all of us to unpack and investigate, and particularly in my work Supporting other people any way, teaching other people, being in sessions with other people, having a podcast, anything like that, to not dive into that I think would be one of the most inauthentic things I could possibly do because I’m so interested, genuinely, in things being anti-oppressive.
I got COVID for the first time last fall, but I’ve been leaving my house this whole time in terms of the whole pandemic so far. Some people have not left their house because they can’t risk it, and just noticing the divide between that itself. There’s so many spaces like that. And we have a guest this season that I was so excited said yes. Imani Barbarin, a person that I Twitter stalk, who actually wrote a tweet recently, I think it was in December. “Ableism is wild because it is quite literally the accelerator for almost all oppression.”
Chavonne:
Ooh.
Jenn:
Right? I’m like, “Ah.” So eugenic frames of mind, ableist frames of mind, ways of being, institutions and governments are just going to be oppressive across the board. So it’s starting to make me realize that ableism is everywhere. And so it’s not just me who has to learn to see it. It’s something I’d like to encourage other people to do. And to directly answer your question about, did we start with things that I have more proximity to so I feel more comfortable? Oh, absolutely.
Chavonne:
Right?
Jenn:
My privilege is a wonderful guide for that. I’m like, “Ooh, let’s do this thing I’m more comfortable with.” But I noticed that something you and I are doing, on the theme of this, is we’re getting more and more uncomfortable all the time, but it’s not a bad kind of discomfort.
Chavonne:
Mm-hmm.
Jenn:
It is a purposeful one. It’s a place where we can learn, and it’s a place where ultimately I find more comfort because challenging these internalized things of things that we experience and channelizing things I don’t experience, the way that we can interact with the world that I feel like I can interact with the world when I can just see things more clearly in that way is also why I feel calmer within myself. I mean, I get more furious because the world is infuriating. I get so mad. It’s also when we watch things like a genocide and ethnic cleansing and, oh, what if we start war in multiple countries and other horrible things that our country is participating in and enabling right at this very moment, noticing that ableism is oppressive everywhere is something that keeps me paying attention in a way that I used to avoid before.
So that feels like a direction worth going. To use one of my words for this year, it feels like I’m a functional member of the world versus one who’s just sort of not functional, not supporting anyone, not paying attention in a way that feels important. And so, yes, I appreciate you calling us out. I think that’s absolutely true. I think it’s a pretty normal experience to be like, “I’m going to start with the things that make me comfortable,” because I can really freak myself out if I go too fast. So I also want to honor that for us, that starting low and going slow is a major theme that I try to embrace in my life, and so that feels really good what we’ve done. And I’m ready to be more sweaty, more nervous, more uncomfortable, more unsure, probably with a higher propensity to make mistakes, but being really open to those experiences and learning from them.
I actually feel like we’re becoming more human in this process, which is something that you’ve highlighted to me many times before, and I love being more human and seeing other people as more human, and just sitting in our shared humanity together in the ways that we resonate, the ways that can connect. And the word we were kind of playing with maybe is our shared word, humble. I love being humbled. I love the feeling in my body of, “You don’t know anything about this. You have got to start learning.” Or this or this feeling of like, ooh.
So I can’t see it. I didn’t know to think about this on my own. Or sometimes we talk a lot about nuance and false dichotomies, but there’s actual dichotomies. Like, that’s fucking wrong. That’s horrible. That’s wrong. There’s no debate about that. I like having that kind of clarity too, and I don’t get that from the comfortable shying away from stuff space. I get that from the leaning in, this is probably going to make me cry or feel hard, or I’m going to get really sweaty and nervous, but I want to do it. I want to know it’s on the other side and during this experience. So that’s really interesting. It’s like you gave us an opportunity to summarize the journey so far of how openness can keep becoming more open.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Jenn:
And expansiveness can keep getting more expansive, and spaciousness can have more spaciousness, but it’s actually simpler. It’s not simple or easy, but it’s more easeful and simpler to… I can feel my nervousness right now, just to explore it, but it’s clearer.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Jenn:
Clearer? Yeah. It’s more transparent maybe would be the word.
Chavonne:
It’s almost like nervous excitement, honestly. I’m nervous. I’m excited to do it, but I’m also like, ooh. There’s some apprehension, but not enough to avoid it, I guess. I can’t think of the right term. I don’t know.
Jenn:
Yeah, we’re interested in it. We’re curious about it. I’m curious about all of it. That’s something that you and I experience in many areas of our relationship together. We love being curious about something, like having a good time and learning something. These things really drive us forward, and so I love that they’re finding… You know, what I’m noticing is the podcast is becoming more us over time, and it’s supporting my ability to be human. Just getting that in this moment, which is really incredible feeling.
Chavonne:
I hadn’t realized that until you just said that. Absolutely.
Jenn:
This is our playground for our humanity is maybe how I describe that, which makes me suddenly, in a new way, obsessed with our podcast.
Chavonne:
I know.
Jenn:
I love that.
Chavonne:
Let’s be even more obsessed.
Jenn:
I love that.
Chavonne:
I do too. I really, really do. Yeah.
Jenn:
It reminds me of the phrase, “To be vulnerably honest,” which I think is a podcast title or a book title. I don’t know, but I love that phrase.
Chavonne:
I like it. Mm-hmm.
Jenn:
Someone else’s, but I still love that.
Chavonne:
Yeah, that’s beautiful.
Jenn:
Yeah. I can’t wait to explore this. I am nervously excited. And dear listeners, when we tell you we’re going to be talking about this, I mean we’re going to dive deep. I know that we are because of the conversations we’ve set up, and I can’t wait.
[32:46]
Chavonne:
Me too. Me too. We’ve also been noticing that continued embodiment journeys and deep dives into them really aren’t possible without a cultural shift, just like we were just talking about, right?
Jenn:
Yes.
Chavonne:
Including a commitment to justice and liberation related to the most marginalized humans and bodies in the world. Let’s talk about it. What’s coming up for you?
Jenn:
Yes. Justice and liberation are two of my favorite words exist. They’re also two of the most misrepresented, misunderstood words. They get thrown around a lot. I mean them, and again, I’m going to use a word to define a word, but I mean them both in their most liberated sense. Liberation, truly getting free. So if you think about the situation in Palestine. People are like, “You want them to have their land back?” I’m like, “No, I do.” And they’re like, “What about people here in the United States, AKA Turtle Island? What if they want their land back?” I was like, “I think that’s a really good idea.”
Chavonne:
Mm-hmm.
Jenn:
They didn’t deserve to have it taken away. It’s a pretty radical perspective of people who have been harmed having the chance to be free. Free to make their own choices, free in an agency autonomy way, free in a safety way. I mean, this planet that we live on and the people on it can be really toxic to those directions, those ideas. Very oppressive, very suppressive,
And to think about true justice, which feels pretty darn fleeting in this country right now, and then really truly liberated and liberation-oriented things. Again, like I was saying earlier, it asks me to pay attention. And we’ve talked about that before. It’s like, people most on the margins, but I’m noticing that the more that I pay attention in this area, it doesn’t feel like that’s the margins at all. It feels like the center of what I should be paying attention to, and so it feels radical because it feels like I differ from society at large in that way, and I’m very interested in connecting with people who have that same kind of energy.
What if it doesn’t have to be like this? What if it doesn’t have to be so hard? What if it doesn’t have to be so dangerous? What if it doesn’t have to be so challenging and complex? What if it doesn’t have to be up to anyone but yourself? Those kinds of things are really interesting to me. And acknowledging what I said earlier, knowing the privileges I have, I’m not always going to be the best voice for choosing what those answers should be. Like, what is the most justice driven or liberation driven?
So I’m interested in hearing what people have to say and experimenting with those things. I think it’s really important. And in some ways to acknowledge ways in which I can contribute or think about that with my own body. I have multiple disabilities. I rarely use that word in relation to myself. That feels worth doing too. Getting my liberation, getting my justice, getting that sort of space. I think one encourages the other because it should be collective if it’s going to work, and so it feels, I don’t know, collectively intentional and important.
I have many other words for this and thoughts about this, but mostly I’m just interested and curious, absorbing new information about it, and a challenge to myself is to act more in this way, not just inside of a session with clients that I am doing, and I have supervisors who check me on that. It’s like, where am I choosing comfort or proximity to something over the justice and liberation thing? It’s more like that in my life. Where am I noticing or not noticing that choice is happening? That made me really sweaty because it’s not an easy thing to do, but I think it’s really important and I want it to get easier by practicing. It doesn’t always have to stay hard there.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Jenn:
How about you? How those shows up for you, justice and liberation?
Chavonne:
Well, everything you just said is making my head spin a little bit, but-
Jenn:
I made my own head spin, so that makes sense.
Chavonne:
Right?
Jenn:
I was like, “Oh my gosh, I could talk about this forever but I’m going to stop myself,” because I want to learn through our podcast. I want to be present with this and not make any decisions ahead of time about how that should go, again, because I don’t know that I can see through my privilege and predict that so accurately, so I’m just interested in how it goes.
Chavonne:
Absolutely. Yeah. One thing that you said that’s sticking in my head, and I’m sure I’m not going to say correctly, but the idea of how when you are focusing on these marginalized beings, these marginalized experiences, identities, that they become more centered for you, and I can see this beautiful image of being on the outside of this… I don’t know why it looks like a donut. I don’t even eat donuts. I’m like, I love pastries, but I hate a donut, so who knows? But it’s like the outside crust and now it’s become the donut hole.
Jenn:
Yeah.
Chavonne:
That’s what’s happening in my head. And it’s just a really beautiful… Just seeing how things can change within you and how once it becomes the center for you, now I really need to do something about it. That’s just what showed up for me, and I was really interested in you saying you have multiple disabilities, because when we were just talking about it a second ago, when I’m talking about my internalized ableism I almost said I have clinical depression. There’s no doubt about it. I’ve had it most of my life, and it could be seen as a disability. But then my head is like, “You don’t get to say that. You’re too privileged for that. You don’t get to,” but that’s an experience for me.
We’ve had this podcast since our fourth season that I can tell you already at the top of my head two periods where I felt absolutely debilitated by my depression, and what has for a few weeks. So it’s interesting. I’m having this whole conversation in my head that right now. I’m going to hold onto it, but it’s not the oppression Olympics. It’s more about just discussing that nuance that can come along with ability, because I have so much privilege within the ability within my body, even within my mind because I have so many protective factors that make sure that I can get out of where I am. Support, therapy, medication, all of that.
Jenn:
Also time to rest because that was such a theme for us.
Chavonne:
Yes. That’s the biggest one. Yeah.
Jenn:
I have multiple chronic illnesses. I have multiple forms of chronic pain and they can all kick up at one time. That happens to me very rarely, but my only choice is to lay in bed, is my thought at that time, but that’s because I’m privileged enough to have a space. I work for myself. I set my own schedule. I can say, “Hi, I can’t participate today. I will reschedule with you once I feel better.” It’s something that I tell people that they will experience with me. I’d like to normalize that my body is going to say absolutely hot some days when I wake up. My brain might be there, but I might be in my bed. I might be covered in ice packs or heating pads or something like that. Just needing to have a sense of regulation physically that I can’t achieve by sitting in a chair and holding space for someone else, and so it’s just so important.
I love that you and I are talking about this. Even I find in you a source of support and normalizing when I’m having a day when my body can’t.
Chavonne:
And you’ve done the same for me when I’ve had an autoimmune flare up. Yeah.
Jenn:
That’s a really rare friendship space in my life. You’re far more than a friend to me. You know that.
Chavonne:
Same.
Jenn:
But there’s a sense of mutuality and understanding and humanization and affirmation that makes it easier, because I struggle every time I have to take a day off or multiple days off, or when I got COVID last fall, weeks off. It hit me really hard because it hit those systems and things that already exist in me and I was feeling them all at once. It was really challenging. And so just honoring the restfulness, restoration, the full word, that we might need, but also honoring trying something. Like when we’re like, “Let’s not record today,” or, “No, I just can’t do it today,” or “Can we do it an hour later?”
Or any sort of permission like that is so anti-ableist. It feels really special and very justice and liberation-driven like we’re talking about. Sometimes it’s about a one-on-one relationship where we’re like, “Go do your free thing. Go do whatever makes you feel free.” You’re in pain. At least be free. And so it’s just an interesting place. My head is kind of swimming about this because I have not been touching this topic, but it’s also why I’m excited to talk about it. I just have the most incredible strong sense of this is a really important direction to go, so thanks for listening to me when I said that this is what I want to talk about.
Chavonne:
I was like, “Ooh, yes, obviously we need to do this.”
Jenn:
And the whole neurodiversity spectrum itself is a disability. It’s full of disabling things. Ehlers-Danlos and hypermobility your body. I don’t have Ehlers-Danlos, but I have hypermobility.
Chavonne:
I have hypermobility.
Jenn:
And then autoimmune things.
Chavonne:
I didn’t even realize a part of it.
Jenn:
Yeah. Hormonal things. I have a stack of hormonal pain and conditions that are… All these hormonal things. And then these are all actually divergences themselves. The endocrine system, the hormone system doesn’t happen without the nervous system being involved or paying attention. Those are neurodivergent things themselves. And so I’m just excited to, I don’t know, normalize the shit out of the complexity of these things. Taking the space that we need, finding the information that feels regulating and supportive, and continuous ongoing consent and permission. That’s something you and I practice a shit ton.
Chavonne:
So much.
Jenn:
We practice that all the time with each other. It’s my most sacred part of any communication, and you and I do it so deeply and so constantly. I kind of feel like we’re exploring that in the podcast season this year.
Chavonne:
Me too, yeah.
Jenn:
I’m so excited about that. Right? Permission is very liberating. No one needs permission from anyone else. What have we been calling? We’ve been calling them reminders. You don’t need my permission, so I’m just going to remind you.
Chavonne:
Here’s a reminder that your body needs go to bed.
Jenn:
Yes. What you and I have been doing there with language, I can’t wait to find more nuggets like that because honestly, that’s one of the rare ones I have where I’m like, “Oh, reminder.” Those distinctions. I can’t wait.
Chavonne:
Me too. I’m so excited.
Jenn:
I’m so excited.
Chavonne:
So can’t believe this is season four, and also, of course, it’s season four.
Jenn:
Of course.
Chavonne:
I’m just thrilled to pieces. Just thrilled.
Jenn:
So when this episode airs, you can expect to have this podcast come at you the first Thursday of every month through November or through October. Now I can’t remember.
Chavonne:
[inaudible]. I’m not sure but I think so.
Jenn:
That’s okay. I wrote it down because I’m super organized now. Okay. Yeah. It’s the first Thursday of November will be the last one.
Chavonne:
[inaudible].
Jenn:
I would call this our pace is what we’re kind of finding. I can already tell it’s going to be more our pace, where we still get to be our full human selves and play around in this fun little talking playground that we get to do together, so I’m fucking thrilled.
Chavonne:
So fucking thrilled. I love you.
Jenn:
Yeah, I love you. I can’t wait. And to all of you listening, we can’t wait to see you next month-
Chavonne:
Can’t wait to see you next month.
Jenn:
… And start exploring all of these themes and having you hear us be sweaty and nervous and all the giggling that comes with that, and all the other stuff.
Chavonne:
We’re always going to be sweating for you.
Jenn:
Yeah. Okay. Can’t wait to see you then. Bye for now.
Chavonne: Thank you for listening to Season 4 of the Embodiment for the Rest of Us podcast. Episodes will be published the first Thursday of every month-ish (in case we need some wiggle room) wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also find all podcast content (including the transcript and show notes) at our website, EmbodimentForTheRestOfUs.com.
Jenn: And follow us on social media, on both Twitter @EmbodimentUs and on Instagram @EmbodimentForTheRestOfUs. We look forward to continuing this evolving and expanding conversation in our next episode.