Embodiment for the Rest of Us – Season 3, Episode 7: Wednesdae Reim Ifrach
Thursday, August 3, 2023
Chavonne (she/her) and Jenn (she/her) interviewed Wednesdae Reim Ifrach (they/them) about their embodiment journey.
Wednesdae is a trans/non-binary art therapist, fat activist and artist whose work focuses on body justice, intersectional social justice and eating disorder treatment equity access.
They also co-own and operate Rainbow Recovery where they support people through the gender affirmation process, complex trauma recovery, eating disorder recovery and body image issues through the use of art, creative expression and traditional talk therapy.
Wednesdae melds the world of art therapy, social justice, trauma recovery and eating disorder recovery into a unique opportunity for people to expand their understanding of the world. To that end Wednesdae had the honor to participate in the Museum of Modern Art (MoMA)’s Artful Practices for Well-being and has had artwork on display at the Baltimore Museum of Art as part of Art as Activism.
They have presented at national and international conferences, are a former adjunct professor and continues to guest lecture. They also serve on the Board of Project HEAL, a non-profit whose mission is to create treatment equity access in the eating disorder field. Wednesdae’s biggest passions outside of work include spending time with their many rescue animals, experimenting with traditional family recipes, painting, and spending time with their partner.
Content Warning: discussion of privilege, discussion of diet culture, discussion of fatphobia, discussion of racism, discussion of mental health, discussion of chronic medical issues, discussion of harm caused by helping professionals
Trigger Warnings:
1:14:40: Wednesdae discusses how sexual abuse can be covered by calling victims in treatment “noncompliant”
1:15:18: Wednesdae discusses typical eating disorder rules and how harmful and wrong they are
1:17:59: Wednesdae discusses their history of abuse
1:22:14: Wednesdae uses the word “nuts” in a way that is ableist
A few highlights:
5:36: Wednesdae shares their understanding of embodiment and their own embodiment journey
19:58: Wednesdae discusses how the pandemic affected their embodiment practices
54:57: Wednesdae shares their understanding of “the rest of us” and how they are a part of that, as well as their privileges
1:07:58: Wednesdae discusses how their work with Rainbow Recovery and Project HEAL has influenced their own relationship with embodiment
1:19:04: Wednesdae shares how stereotypes of productivity, availability, and capability/capacity relate to being a clinician
1:24:48: Wednesdae discusses how listeners can make a difference based on this conversation
1:26:28: Wednesdae shares where to be found and what’s next for them
Links from this episode:
Music: “Bees and Bumblebees (Abeilles et Bourdons), Op. 562” by Eugène Dédé through the Creative Commons License
Please follow us on social media:
Twitter: @embodimentus
Instagram: @embodimentfortherestofus
Captions
EFTROU Season 3 Episode 7 is 1 hour, 30 minutes, and 09 seconds long. (1:30:09)
Chavonne: Hello there! I’m Chavonne McClay (she/her).
Jenn: And I’m Jenn Jackson (she/her).
Chavonne: This is Season 3 of Embodiment for the Rest of Us. A podcast series exploring topics and intersections that exist in fat, queer, and disability liberation!
Jenn: In this show, we interview those with lived experience and professionals alike to learn how they are affecting radical change and how we can all make this world a safer and more welcoming place for all humans who are historically and currently marginalized and should be centered, listened to, and supported.
Chavonne: Captions and content warnings are provided in the show notes for each episode, including specific time stamps, so that you can skip triggering content any time that feels supportive to you! This podcast is a representation of our co-host and guest experiences and may not be reflective of yours. These conversations are not medical advice, and are not a substitute for mental health or nutrition support.
Jenn: In addition, the conversations held here are not exhaustive in their scope or depth. These topics, these perspectives are not complete and are always in process. These are just highlights! Just like posts on social media, individual articles, or any other podcast, this is just a snapshot of the full picture.
Chavonne: We are always interested in any feedback on this process if something needs to be addressed. You can email us at Listener@EmbodimentForTheRestOfUs.com.
[1:36]
(C): Welcome to Season 3 Episode 7 of the Embodiment for the Rest of Us podcast. In today’s episode, we chat with our new friend and powerful human being, Wednesdae Reim Ifrach! They are an incredible therapist, teacher, mentor, activist, and human being.
(J): Wednesdae Reim Ifrach REAT, ATR-BC, ATCS, LPC, NCC, CLAT, LCMHC, TPMH, LPCC (They/Them/Theirs) is a trans/non-binary art therapist, fat activist and artist whose work focuses on body justice, intersectional social justice and eating disorder treatment equity access. They also co-own and operate Rainbow Recovery where they support people through the gender affirmation process, complex trauma recovery, eating disorder recovery and body image issues through the use of art, creative expression and traditional talk therapy. Wednesdae melds the world of art therapy, social justice, trauma recovery and eating disorder recovery into a unique opportunity for people to expand their understanding of the world.
(C): To that end Wednesdae had the honor to participate in the Museum of Modern Art (MoMA)’s Artful Practices for Well-being and has had artwork on display at the Baltimore Museum of Art as part of Art as Activism. They have presented at national and international conferences, are a former adjunct professor and continues to guest lecture. They also serve on the Board of Project HEAL, a non-profit whose mission is to create treatment equity access in the eating disorder field. Wednesdae’s biggest passions outside of work include spending time with their many rescue animals, experimenting with traditional family recipes, painting, and spending time with their partner.
(J): Thank you so much for being here with us dear listeners! This season is so great and we are honored you are here. We can’t wait to share more!
[3:43]
Chavonne:
We are honored, humbled, and absolutely pumped to have Wednesdae Reim Ifrach, they/them/theirs, joining us from Connecticut. Welcome. You are someone whose perspectives on gender-affirming care that embody activism, intersectional social justice, complex trauma, and eating disorders support inspire us constantly. We can’t wait to talk about boundaries, accessibility as liberation, and capability and capacity with you today. How are you doing in this moment, Wednesdae?
Wednesdae:
My gosh, why is that such a loaded question?
Jenn:
Because I wrote it.
Wednesdae:
[inaudible]. No, I love it.
Chavonne:
Because Jenn wrote it.
Wednesdae:
I love it.
Jenn:
I wrote it. That’s all I write, loaded questions.
Wednesdae:
[inaudible]. So, I mean-
Chavonne:
Jenn writes paragraph-long questions.
Wednesdae:
I fucking love it.
Chavonne:
Okay.
Jenn:
It’s a great question. It’s because I wrote it.
Chavonne:
Exactly.
Wednesdae:
So, we are meeting at a time that I didn’t think my whole world would be doing the stuff that it’s doing, so I’m the word good, whatever that means, but also really just ungrounded and floating in space in a good way, because change is incredible and beautiful and growth is amazing and highly anxiety provoking for someone who literally worries about everything all the time.
Jenn:
Oh, every cell in my body.
Chavonne:
Like you’re speaking our language.
Jenn:
Yeah.
Wednesdae:
Yeah.
Chavonne:
Yeah, it’s that necescary, as Jenn likes to say.
Wednesdae:
Oh, I love it.
Chavonne:
Mm-hmm.
Jenn:
Yeah. That’s everything for me, but that’s a whole other conversation. Yes. I love it. Well, thanks for being here with us.
Chavonne:
Yeah, I love the openness and just being with us and being where you are. We really appreciate that.
[5:36]
Jenn:
Yeah. So, as we start this conversation that’s trying to not be floating, or to be floating and … To be floating and, being present in or about or in our bodies. I’d love to start with asking our usual centering question about the themes of this podcast and how they occur to you. Can you share with us what the word embodiment means to you and what your embodiment journey has been like, if you’d like to share that here?
Wednesdae:
Sure. I’ve actually been thinking about this a lot, because in a lot of my work we talk about embodiment as this idea of coming home to yourself. And everyone’s home looks different. Some people, the front door is hanging off the hinges, some need windows. Home is not always that picture perfect white picket fence. And as I kind of move into my own chronic illness, disability justice space more, I’m learning that embodiment needs to be more than coming home. It also needs to be a reconciling with. Home might not actually be always the thing that we need, but it’s the thing that we have.
Jenn:
Ooh, ooh. Mm-hmm. Ooh!
Wednesdae:
I know, right?
Jenn:
Yeah.
Wednesdae:
Sometimes I’m like, someone definitely said that to me once and I stole it, but I can’t remember who. There’s no way I came up with that on my own. I always think of … I’ve been using a wheelchair a little more for things, especially as I paint. It’s become really hard to stand for long periods of time and do stuff. And who wants to come home to that? But that’s what I have. And so, there’s a level of acceptance that has to happen that can be really liberating and really difficult, and I think that that’s okay. And I think, when I think about all the things I’ve been through with my body, especially lately, the more I jump into my own working for myself journey as opposed to working for other people, I’m really moving into this space of looking back at all the times that I definitely had an eating disorder that no one would even talk about, the times they were prescribed to me, all the times I was told that my body and my home were inherently wrong.
And I had worked so hard on that. And then these last two years of all this political bullshit around trans people has been happening, all the violence against Black people that’s been happening, and it makes me prouder to be home in this body. And at the same time, it makes me want to run as far away from it as possible because it’s not safe. And I’m safe, but the world makes the home that I’m in not safe. And so, it’s just a really both/and journey, which is not always functional for someone who’s highly anxious and really cares about people. And that’s what we have right now. If someone would let me talk to the president for 30 seconds, I could probably take care of some stuff, but apparently he’s busy. I don’t know what he’s doing, but it’s not what I asked him to do or paid him to do.
Chavonne:
Right. Right.
Jenn:
The same could be said for anyone we’ve elected. What are they doing?
Wednesdae:
Oh, all of them.
Chavonne:
Yeah. Yeah.
Wednesdae:
I’m waiting.
Jenn:
Yeah, one of my favorite, but not really favorite … I’m saying that facetiously. One of my favorite things about our elected officials is how they’re just looking around now and going, “Someone should do something about this.”
Wednesdae:
Yeah.
Jenn:
Someone should. And I’m like, “Well, it’d be nice if you did. It’s your job.”
Wednesdae:
Right.
Jenn:
It’d be really great if you could just do it. That would be awesome.
Wednesdae:
Yeah. My partner and I were talking about that earlier before I came down here to do this, and I was like, “I just want a petition that points out all the human rights violations that are just happening, just happening.”
Chavonne:
Just happening.
Wednesdae:
Everybody’s just staring and looking around, and because of the work that we do I’m always like, “Do we not know how disordered everyone’s going to be about their bodies when this is over? Do we not know how sick people are going to be? Do we not know the lengths that people will go to be safe in their bodies because of what you’re doing?”
Chavonne:
Yeah, absolutely.
Wednesdae:
This isn’t just the immediate. This is years from now, the trauma that’s going to live in people’s bodies and the way that they’re going to cope with them is horrendous. And we don’t have universal health care, so people are going to be paying an arm and a leg for things that should have never happened to them.
Chavonne:
Absolutely. Mm-hmm.
Jenn:
Wow.
Chavonne:
Oof! This is sitting really heavy right now.
Jenn:
That inquiry, what are the lengths people will go to keep themselves safe when the context all around them is unsafe? Wow. Oh, that’s fucked up, that that has to be on … I think it’s real. I think that’s in your brain, and it’s also just real out here.
Chavonne:
It is. It is.
Jenn:
Out here in this world that we live in. I’m big on transparency and seeing the world for what it is, and we’re talking about conversations about embodiment. That makes me want to make embodiment really complicated, but something that I’m hearing, I think maybe in what you’re saying is that it can be simpler. It’s not simple or easy or anything like that, but it could be simpler. I’m curious if that resonates or if that’s just me over here in my brain.
Wednesdae:
Oh, that’s a good question. I do think that it could be simpler. I think it needs to be more intentional and intersectional, and I think that’s where the average person struggles, because if people can’t access, say, all of us, then learning becomes more difficult because you have to learn on your own. And learning on your own is always harder than learning in community.
Chavonne:
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.
Jenn:
Hmm! I see.
Chavonne:
I always struggle with the complexity because that’s how my brain works. That’s how I work, is that I’m like, “Oh, I’m going to learn about embodiment for three months,” and then I’m going to work on embodiment, but sometimes you just got to get in there and just be really intentional and just do it. That’s really sitting for me right now. Absolutely.
But also sitting heavily as you were speaking is I’m thinking of all of these undocumented people on the border in El Paso, which is my hometown as they’re dissembling Title 42. And I’m just thinking about what lengths people who are being impacted by that will have to go to to try to keep their bodies, to try to keep themselves safe. And that just makes me want to cry right now. Yeah.
Jenn:
Yeah, it’s pretty heartbreaking.
Chavonne:
It is.
Jenn:
And heartbreak, a topic we talked about in our second season early on, with Michelle Phillips.
Chavonne:
Well, I think we mentioned in every episode.
Jenn:
Every episode, because this really stuck with us.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Jenn:
Grief is heartbreak. It’s literally in the body.
Chavonne:
Yep.
Jenn:
That phrase is meant to describe and make visceral the experience of the body. So, I’m just trying to sit in that more. And you’re right, simpler would be in a fully accessible world where things are made to do their jobs of fitting us and making room for us and inviting us and all of those things, but that’s not the world that we live in. We have pockets. We can have pockets … We’re working with people like us in conversations like this, but pockets, they’re not it, not for the change that we’re looking for.
Chavonne:
Absolutely.
Wednesdae:
Yeah. Oh, my gosh.
Chavonne:
I really love part of your definition being that reconciliation of this is my home. It might not be what I wanted. It might not be what I expected, but this is what it is so I am going to reckon with it, just like you said. Finding that peace, embracing that heartbreak that might come with that. I talk about the grief of being in certain identities within myself. It has to be a part of that embodiment process, and I think that’s really, really important. Yeah.
Jenn:
Hmm. You brought up the wheelchair that you are practicing using more. I’m curious about that with your painting. Are you doing it while painting?
Wednesdae:
Yeah. So, I sit here where we’re talking, and then in front of me is actually my wheelchair and bunch of … I make a lot of art out of found objects. So, I have a series of mannequins over here that were all about my body journey, which is fun to look at while we’re talking. And my painting sits there. And I had a beautiful expensive easel that got ruined in our flood, so I have a cheaper one that I use. And like all accessibility, when you buy the cheaper one, it can’t move low to the ground. So, I’ve had to learn how to use my wheelchair to move up to the canvas, how to reach my body in ways that doesn’t hurt to do what I need to do.
And I’ve been making videos of that experience when I felt the ability to be vulnerable with people and share it for two reasons. One, we don’t see a lot of disabled artists making art. That’s not something that people regularly see. And two, I do this art therapy thing, it’s called El Duende process painting, and it’s where you paint over all of the layers that you’re making. And so, I’ve been working on this for a year, and it started off as me using tissue paper and wires and things to simulate the layers of the human body. So, as I get to the outside now, it’s the painting part of the process, which is fun.
And it’s the safest way for me to practice using my wheelchair because it’s really hard in public. People assume a lot of things about the size of my body and how I must be disabled. I’ve had people in an airport try to help me wheel my wheelchair into a bathroom when I haven’t asked for help. When I use my cane, because it’s super dazzly, I’ve had people grab it.
So, things that you’re kind of like, “But this is part of my body.” I know it doesn’t look like part of my body, but my wheelchair’s actually part of my body and my embodiment, my cane, too. It took me a lot of therapeutic work to get to the point where I accepted that I was going to use this thing. And I think we’re just in a really ableist culture still, and that’s okay, but when I paint, I could use these things and learn how to feel safe and comfortable in them and let them be part of my body, and that’s really amazing because it’s not something I ever thought I would be able to do.
Jenn:
Yeah. Wow!
Chavonne:
That art sounds incredible. I would love to see that one day.
Wednesdae:
I’ll send you all pictures.
Chavonne:
Okay.
Jenn:
Please. Please, please, please.
Chavonne:
You have a [inaudible] page? I’m on it. I’m going to need to decorate my office. Oh!
Jenn:
Oh, my God. I love it, I love it.
Chavonne:
It’s super cool. Mm-hmm.
Jenn:
And I’m really curious, and you tell me how you feel about this, about your mannequins. As soon as you said that, I’m like, “Mannequins as a representation of your embodiment journey?”
Wednesdae:
They are from a shutdown Victoria Secret factory. So, they are the thinnest, whitest, made of satin, this is what you want your body to look like bullshit. And they are now covered in duct tape. They have been padded, they have been cut into, their chests have been removed. I actually … A local gun range, which I have feelings about, let me take all of their bullet shells and I actually made one about the violence against trans people and had bullet shells in one of my mannequins, which by the way, just for people listening, if you do use stuff like this, the residue stays on your hand for a long time, and then when you go through a TSA check, they do have to pat you down. I learned that today.
Chavonne:
Good to know.
Wednesdae:
I learned that the hard way.
Jenn:
Wow.
Wednesdae:
I had no idea.
Jenn:
Wow.
Chavonne:
That’s incredible. Wow, that’s breathtaking.
Wednesdae:
Yeah.
Jenn:
Wow! What an expression to yourself. What a thing to see across from you, because you said that this was your space to share with clients, so you get to see that as you are holding space.
Chavonne:
Wow. What a gift.
Jenn:
You are embodied and tangible and present without having to do the work of that. Just thinking about earlier how you said, “I’m feeling really flighty and up here in my anxiety space,” it’s like, and there’s you over there in a super grounded way.
Chavonne:
Yeah. Wow.
Wednesdae:
They’re really political. One of them says a phrase that I got at a hospital lunch, which is, “What do you have down there?” And a doctor actually asked me that.
Jenn:
Oh, what the fuck?
Wednesdae:
Right? So, I always tell people, “Here I am.” I had just had top surgery. I had an allergic reaction to the drains and all of the Saniderm and things that they use. So, I went from being okay to getting violently ill. My whole body was reacting. And that’s the question you going to ask?
Chavonne:
Right. That’s what we’re talking about here? No.
Wednesdae:
That had nothing to do with why I was there.
Jenn:
None. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Wednesdae:
I wasn’t having a genital issue.
Chavonne:
Right, right, right.
Wednesdae:
But they were just curious.
Chavonne:
Fuck off.
Wednesdae:
Right.
Chavonne:
Just fuck off. Yeah.
Jenn:
Wow! In a world of things that are actually urgent and important, what an elevation of a not any of their business topic and curiosity.
Chavonne:
Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely.
Jenn:
Oh, the supremacy of it all.
Wednesdae:
There we go.
Jenn:
They’re like, “You know what’s really important right now, though? This question I’m super curious about.”
Wednesdae:
Yeah.
Chavonne:
That’s what matters most here. Fuck off. [inaudible] that privilege. Yeah.
Wednesdae:
My partner was saying to me earlier trans people only make up right now that we know of, 2% of the population, and we have been given so much power while also being so suppressed by white supremacy. And so, it’s always so interesting that that’s the thing you’re worried about. And I always remember that when I’m in those situations that I feel powerless, but how much power to focus on something that actually doesn’t even fucking matter.
Chavonne:
Right. Right. Mm-hmm.
Wednesdae:
That’s what you want to put your time and energy into? Bro, go do your own embodiment work.
Chavonne:
Right. Right. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.
Jenn:
Yeah, exactly. Oh, I’m so sorry that happened.
Chavonne:
Me, too. I really am, too.
Wednesdae:
Thanks.
Jenn:
My punch instinct was here.
[19:58]
Chavonne:
Right? Yeah, just punching the air, just shaking things and slapping. Yeah, I’m sorry, though.
I wanted to talk a little bit about the pandemic, if that’s okay. As a human being, how has this ongoing pandemic and all of its inherent eugenics and ableism, virtue signaling, and quote, “Back to normal,” unquote, energy of the current moment, how has that affected your embodiment practices and ways that challenge your process? Has there been anything that feels like it connects you further? Lastly, what lights you up about your work and when are you feeling most embodied? Another paragraph-long question.
Wednesdae:
No, I love it. I’ll try to remember everything.
Jenn:
Welcome to the podcast.
Chavonne:
We love it. Welcome to Embodiment for The Rest of Us.
Wednesdae:
The pandemic in general has been wild for me. I went from working in a group practice that kind of … I want to be appropriate and respectful to the other people I worked with … Basically imploded while I was there. And I was in the middle of both of my top surgery and my hysterectomy while it was happening. So, it was a really painful time to have that happen. I was going through these really beautiful, awakening, embodying moments, but because of the pandemic, couldn’t have my people with me. My bubble was literally my partner and my parents who live down the street. My dad has heart issues. My mom has early onset dementia, so we couldn’t risk them. My grandfather is 101. I couldn’t risk him. I know. We can talk about him. He was a former activist who worked with MLK in a bunch of … I know.
Chavonne:
Wow!
Wednesdae:
It’s where I get it from. I tell everyone this is where I get it from, is actually from watching that work my whole life, but these are the people that need my help and also need my care as much as I need care. And so, I really had to make hard choices to not be with friends, which did actually end friendships, which was also really hard and really sad. And I think sometimes people have to grow apart to be able to grow themselves. So, that’s kind of how I reconciled that. It was really scary. My partner and I are both fat and my parents really don’t do well of advocating for themselves with their illnesses. And my grandfather’s incredibly stubborn about his health. So, it was scary to think if, say I were to get something being with a friend, A, if it was bad and I was in a hospital, I knew full damn well the ventilator was not going to me.
And I knew if my parents went and I couldn’t go into the hospital with them, which we couldn’t have anyone with us, there was going to be no one to abdicate for them. So, we spent a lot of time being scared. And then we both, my partner and I kind of were like, “Let’s get excited about being in our house and creating our own little world.” And so, we actually did a lot of work putting up our own artwork and making sure we made time for things that we didn’t have before, because I was driving 45 minutes to an office there and back every day. I got almost an hour and a half of my life back just in the driving. And then clients that didn’t have jobs were at home and I knew what it was like to have daytime hour clients. So, there were parts of it that really signaled to me how much my life had to change for my own sanity and embodiment. And then at the same time, there was so much grief.
And I think that that’s true for everybody. I know I have a lot of clients who would define themselves as being in bigger bodies. And so, it was a lot of having our own fear and having the conversations I have with my home, with my family, also with clients. I feel like the last three years have just been a big old parallel process and I love a parallel process. So, that’s my favorite clinical work. We don’t wear masks as often as we should. I admit that to people, but I am very frustrated by the fact, both with myself and everyone around me, that we all don’t seem to understand that there are people far more disabled and chronically ill than me that need us to do things to keep them safe and that that’s not an ongoing discussion anymore. And it just makes me think of all the disability advocates that I follow that talk about how we are a culture of throwing people away and how no human is disposable, and yet we treat it that way. And that really changed how I looked at everything that I do.
I think of clients and I look back on things I’ve said that I wish I had never said or done that I would’ve never ever come to that conclusion without this happening. So, I think there have been some wonderful growth moments. You asked me a bunch of other questions and I can’t think of them.
I mean, there’s so many parts of this pandemic that have just been also really heartbreaking. And I grew up around activists. I learned a lot about racism from a really young age, but I didn’t realize the amount of my own white fragility I had to unlearn and the last three years have really taught me how much being around that energy from a young age also made me think that I knew more, was more, could do more than I really am individually, separate from those people. And even though that was hard, it was such a gift because you can’t be an ally and an activist if you don’t unlearn your own fucking shit about racism. That’s the fundamental base of white supremacy is racism and anti-Semitism.
So, if you don’t unlearn those two things, you can’t unlearn all these other things. And so, it was really painful and wonderful to learn that and see that. And I don’t know, what did the last three years do to people? I feel like everyone was like, “I know what I’m going to do. I’m going to be the biggest dick that I can be because the government will let me get away with it.” And I’m just like, “Can we not? Nothing’s back to normal.” There’ll be no back to normal.
Chavonne:
There is no … This is the new normal, yeah, or whatever normal. Yeah, whatever.
Wednesdae:
There are now people that I will never respect again. There are people I will never be friends with again. The last three, four years have taught me a lot about how much people lie to themselves and therefore lie to us, and how much I’ve even lied to myself and therefore lied to other people without knowing it. And I think that’s the gift and the curse of what we’ve all just been through. And at the same time, when I think about our talk about embodiment, this has actually all really helped me with this part of my journey. I feel like you can’t come home to a lie.
Chavonne:
Hmm. Oh, I got chills. Shit!
Wednesdae:
Okay.
Chavonne:
Whoa. Sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt you. Holy-
Wednesdae:
No, you’re okay.
Chavonne:
Holy Toledo! Okay.
Wednesdae:
I feel like we as a culture, but especially people that work in the body sphere of counseling, we’ve all come home to lies for so long. And we no longer have a choice because our job is no longer just, “How are you feeling? Let’s use these skills.” Now, if you’re really fucking good at your job, it’s like, “How is white supremacy impacting your mental health? How are current policies affecting the way that you are in your body? What about your body is scary to be in considering the world you’re in?” Questions that I think we were told not to ask for a really long time. I mean, most of us were taught to be a blank slate. That doesn’t work in this world. And so, for me, it’s been a gift because I’ve never been that kind of therapist and I’ve always been really shamed for not being that kind of therapist. And now I look around and I’m like, “I told you bitches. I told you.”
Jenn:
That’s right.
Wednesdae:
There was another way.
Jenn:
Yeah. Wow!
Chavonne:
Yeah, yeah. I met with-
Jenn:
Wow! That’s-
Chavonne:
I have so many things to say, but-
Jenn:
Yeah, go.
Chavonne:
I’m going to first say you can’t come home to a lie is burning itself into my brain as we speak. I’m like, “I got to change all kinds of things about my life and what I say out loud.” No, it’s amazing.
But I met with another therapist yesterday. We were just shooting the shit because she’s doing a lot of support as I build up my own business, but she was talking about how lucky … Sorry, I saw Hamilton last night so I was about to think about how lucky we are to be alive right now, but the idea that we are creating the kind of therapeutic world that we wished we could have grown up in, that we’re making sure that the people … The baby therapists, which I call them, and that’s not pejorative, I was a baby therapist a long time ago, but that we’re helping them come into this field where you can ask those questions, where you can be vulnerable with your clients, where you can be like, “The world is fucked up. How are we going to survive with this? And how are we going to … You want to leave New Mexico? Okay, is where you’re going to go going to give you reproductive rights? Let’s talk about it.”
The conversations that I wish we could have had as baby therapists or even when I was a baby therapy-goer. That’s really sitting heavily with me. That’s, wow! What a great answer. Yeah. Yeah.
Sorry, Jenn. I think I cut you off because I was excited.
Jenn:
No. No, I was just going, “Wow,” and just … you said it was searing into your brain. It was searing somewhere in my chest cavity to find a permanent location. From being another clinician in eating disorder work, that was really reminding me of how context can no longer be separate from the conversation. Traditional eating disorder work is just do this and then do this and then you’ll do this and ta-da. That’s traditional eating disorder treatment from my very I’m still angry about it perspective, but really how eating disorder works functionally throughout time in sustainable ways that actually truly meets people where they are and works for them cannot be a lie, any part of it. And it’s a truth that people often figure out that they don’t want to live a lie anymore. They don’t want to come home to a lie. They don’t want their relationship with their body to be a lie. So, that’s really all I have right now is a big oof, because it’s really … I’m feeling it implant itself. I thank you for that.
Chavonne:
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Wednesdae:
I don’t even know. I can’t say anything else. I’m just whoa!
Jenn:
I’m really pretty blown away. So, I’ll have to think about it because I’m like, “Yes.”
Wednesdae:
Just yes.
Jenn:
And it immediately made … Yeah, as a fellow deeply anxious person for my life since I was a very, very teeny tiny toddler … I actually remember being super anxious at that time. Everyone around me could tell that I was anxious. I emanate that energy. That’s just who I am.
Chavonne:
That’s how we balance each other.
Jenn:
Exactly. “Hello, I’m all alone. Are you someone that I can talk to? Oh, hello, I’m also all alone.”
Wednesdae:
I love that.
Chavonne:
We can overthink together.
Jenn:
“Yeah. I’m also all alone. Shall we chat?”
Chavonne:
Shall we chat?
Jenn:
Right? That’s how we … Truly, truly, I’m like, “Hi, my clients and I are alone. Can we talk to you?” Yeah. Yes. Right. Two months later we had a podcast, not even kidding. We’re like …
Wednesdae:
But that’s how it should be. I think that takes so much power within ourselves to admit those things. And I’m only admitting those things to myself now. That’s been a big talk in our house, is that feeling of loneliness and alone when you’re a therapist especially. I don’t know about you both, but my partner and I are clearly both queer and so we work in the community that we live in, which means a lot of our social outlets with non-therapists are completely cut off.
Jenn:
Oh, yes.
Wednesdae:
I can’t go to … I was just talking to a client who really wants to learn underground ballroom dancing and she’s a dancer and she can fucking do it, but there’s only one place in New Haven that does it. And so, when I recommended it to her, I had to go to my partner and be like, “We can’t go,” because I will never take that from a client, especially someone who’s a dancer when I am in a disabled body and I can go and be a part of it, but I can’t do what she can do and get out of it.
And so, that’s such an intentional sacrifice. And I will make it over and over again because I know she’s probably going to listen to this. I will make it over and over again because it’s … Do you like how the anxiety was like, “You have to reassure someone that might listen to this that it’s okay.” And it does make this really hard.
Jenn:
Yeah.
Wednesdae:
The pandemic was isolating enough. And then when we work with bodies, we often work with clients that are in similar spheres that we are in. And it makes this work really lonely. And then, I don’t know about you both, but in the [inaudible] sort of world there are really great people and some people are just really mean.
Chavonne:
Mean.
Wednesdae:
There’s so much competition for no reason, so much jealousy for no reason. I don’t think I’m actually better than anybody else. Sometimes I’m really surprised people even want to talk to me, and not because I don’t think I have stuff to offer, but just because there are bigger names and bigger things out there. And because people are competitive and I don’t consider myself a competitive person 90% of the time, it just makes this hard. And then I’m like, “Okay. Well, we all want to talk about embodiment, but we can’t be nice to each other?”
Chavonne:
Right.
Jenn:
For those who can’t see us, because we don’t share any videos from this, I’m contorting my mouth and sucking my lips in because that really lands. To be in a behavioral health space period, to be so judgmental about other clinicians’ mental health and well-being blows my mind. To be in a space about bodies and embodiment and spaciousness and holding space for each other and all being generative together, like, “What can we get up to in the world?” It doesn’t have to be like this, how competitive it can be in the same context. Who’s naming their program something similar to another one and who’s going to do it faster? It’s a really common theme that I see all the time, one very recently.
There are a lot of things like that that make clients feel unsafe, because they can see it just like we do. Eating disorder clients are heavily, especially clients in larger bodies or in otherwise othered bodies, queer bodies, disabled bodies, they are in all of these same spaces because they are so rare, and especially clinicians who also inhabit those same characteristics. We all see the same thing. So, that also surprises me how visible we all know we are and yet we make these inauthenticities so forward.
Chavonne:
Mm-hmm.
Wednesdae:
Or my bigger fear is that what if that is someone’s authenticity and what does that mean?
Jenn:
Oh, shit! You’re right. I give a lot of credit at the beginning and I have to roll it back.
Wednesdae:
No. No, I think it can be both. I think sometimes jealousy-
Jenn:
True.
Wednesdae:
Jealousy can be a really beautiful thing if you really need something to motivate you. I see someone [inaudible]-
Jenn:
Great point.
Wednesdae:
… when I want it too. And then, at the same time, it can cloud our authentic nature and make us when we’re not. And when we’re in these spaces, sometimes I don’t know which is which. Is it that someone’s inauthentic? Is it that they’re just jealous? Am I jealous? Am I being inauthentic? Is this part of my personality? First of all, anxious brain can do all of those thoughts at once, so that’s really fun, but then the other part-
Jenn:
Multi-talented. That’s what they [inaudible] that much. That’s what I say.
Chavonne:
I love that.
Jenn:
I can think about 25 things at once. Look at me.
Wednesdae:
I know sometimes people are like, “How do you do so much?” And I’m like, “Anxiety fuels everything.”
Jenn:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I’m beyond the limits of my body at all times. What do you mean?
Wednesdae:
Right, clearly.
Jenn:
I don’t have any stops, so that works out a lot. I can get a lot of stuff done.
Wednesdae:
Here’s a grocery list in my head right now. What are you talking about?
Jenn:
Here we go. This is so interesting. I recently got food poisoning that had me de-realize. The separation from my body signals and the world around me was really deep. My therapist had to say, “Jenn, this is derealization. Also, can you please look in the mirror? Because we need to check on depersonalization. I need to know what you look like to yourself.” Just really separated from these signals. And I did not have any anxious thoughts. I actually didn’t really have any thoughts, had a lot of trouble with my working memory because ADHD and other things. I was like, “Oh, I guess every time I go through a door or threshold, I am a new person. I’m just going to keep flowing.” But to be separated from that, which I did not miss for a single second, not even one. My therapist brought up, “You know, that’s true, Jenn. Some people do not have this internal dialogue and conversation with themselves. There’s people who don’t have it.” And I was like, “What?”
Chavonne:
I don’t understand what you just said.
Jenn:
Yeah. [inaudible].
Wednesdae:
What happens in there then? It sounds really quiet and it’s actually scary to me, to think about not having that. Yeah.
Jenn:
It was a very quiet, never-endingness is how I have been describe. I’m back to my anxiety. It’s all back. Today, this day that we are recording, it’s all back. My sweaty body responses were also gone. I was fully removed from that experience in my body, but it is one of the most relatable experiences that I have access to. Again, as I said, since three years old. I know exactly when it happened because I started getting nauseous. That’s one of my major symptoms. And that’s when I started having uncontrollable nausea. That’s how every member of my family knows what I need when I get a certain look on my face, because I’ve had it. That’s 37 years ago, almost 38 years ago. I’ve had this this whole time to we contain multitudes. It always sits with me as anxiety. I’m like, I am having at least 17 conversations right now with myself at any one time, but not in a distracted way. This is just how I operate way.
And so, sitting in this space … I appreciate you normalizing that. And as you were describing, you’re just saying this out loud. You’re sharing it with yourself and then you’re talking about jealousy. And I was like, “Yeah, you know what I realized recently and what was absent in the last two weeks?” I just shared this with my therapist. I was like, “I have a lot of envy. Look at them over there. Look at what they have. It must have been so easy. I want that thing with none of the effort.” I’m very clear that it’s not … I’m not just jealous. I’m like, “Mine!” That’s the feeling.
But not really. That’s just when my anxiety is so, so, so strong, it’s easy to fixate on something instead of just sitting with all that anxious stuff. My envy needs a thing in the world so I’m like, “Ooh, other people,” but it’s not authentic to me. That’s where my anxiety becomes not me.
So, I’ve just realized, and I was just now I was like, “I want to admit that I have envy,” because it’s almost like a lighthouse in my anxious world when I notice that I’m envious and I’m like, “Okay, I need to sit with what’s making me anxious,” and preferably sooner than that. I don’t need to be in a foggy … Like in this analogy, I don’t need to be in a huge boat going fast in the fog and then the only thing that saves me is a lighthouse. I’d prefer to have different levels, something. You kind put your hand to your chest, Wednesdae, so I’m curious.
Wednesdae:
I guess this is the moment that I’ve needed for the last two years, to be really honest. So, I’ve been working in a treatment center for the first time since I started my career. And I’m saying this because by the time you release this, it will already be done, but I’m on medical leave. The job made me really sick and I’m going to be quitting and working for myself and I’m going back to school to get my PhD.
Jenn:
Woo-hoo!
Chavonne:
I’m so excited for you.
Wednesdae:
I know.
Chavonne:
What are you … For counseling or for … I’m sorry. I …
Wednesdae:
No, ask. It’s in integrative social work. It’s a research program and they have someone on staff who supports doing eating disorder research on marginalized populations, which is where we’re missing research. So, it’s a chance for me to take everything that I’ve learned in this work and really pour it into something. And we don’t really want to have children, we just want to help everybody else with theirs. So, this is an opportunity for me to raise something for the next four years that’s for myself. Yes, it’s for the field, but this is also for myself.
And I applied for this before my medical leave, but my medical leave started because I was in a boat in the fog and then I was with my family and the light finally turned on, but the whole ocean fucking lit up and the brick wall was right there and I couldn’t stop and I got violently ill. I couldn’t eat for multiple days, was vomiting blood, thought I was dying. It was terrible. And it was this moment of everything that I worked on over the major stress of this job over the last six months, I shut it off. I shut it off and I spent six months torturing myself about why I couldn’t do something anymore until my body said, “Well, if you’re not going to do it, we’re going to do it. You won’t have a choice.” And it screamed louder than it’s ever screamed at me before. And I am so grateful for hitting that brick wall, because that brick wall gave me the opportunity to rest and come back home to my body and then go, “What do we need together next?”
Chavonne:
Hmm. Fuck! Wow.
Jenn:
Oh, my gosh. I’m writing a-
Chavonne:
Congratulations, first of all.
Jenn:
Yeah.
Wednesdae:
Thank you.
Chavonne:
Not for what brought you there, but I’m so excited that you’re going … I don’t know why I need to say that. I’m pretty sure you knew that, but I’m really excited that you are making that move and going back to school and you’ll be able to raise this to the four-year-old and give in a way that feels really healthy for you, which is so important, so, so, so, so important. Yeah, absolutely.
Oh, my gosh. Wow. And I love that. I’m so grateful for that brick wall, because as Jenn was saying it, I’m like, I wonder what it would even look like for me to see the buoy or buoy, however you say it.
Jenn:
No idea.
Chavonne:
And know to stop. I don’t even know what that … I would just be like, “Oh, here’s a buoy.”
Jenn:
Yeah, I think it’s buoy. You’re right. There’s a buoy. There’s like a line of buoys.
Chavonne:
I wonder if there’s another one past it. That’s the one I need to pay attention to.
Jenn:
Oh, no. I I ignore all of it.
Chavonne:
[inaudible] is what I need to.
Wednesdae:
I even had colleagues on my team being like, “I don’t think I can do this anymore. I’m watching your behavior change. You are not you anymore.” And really, I might not have always appreciated the way that it was pointed out, but what was being pointed out was true. I was changing into someone that was not authentic to me. And I have this nervous system and this body that the minute I’m not authentic to myself, it reacts.
And I have … You’ll love this, I have this picture of my mom and I when I was younger and this picture of my brother and I when we were younger. I think he was in college in both of these photos. They’re always right here to also ground me. And whenever I look at them, I think about this really beautiful, authentic time in my life where I just didn’t care. And not didn’t care because I didn’t have things to care about, but before I was married and owned a house and worried about money and what about my business license and how am I going to do this? And I look at that and I’m like, “We all should get to feel that way with the business license and how am I going to make money and what about my family?” You don’t have to sacrifice your authenticity to also survive, but our culture and white supremacy in particular tells us we do and I listened.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Wednesdae:
I listened to the lie.
Chavonne:
Mm-hmm.
Jenn:
Holy fuck.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Wednesdae:
Imagine what a session is like with me. Isn’t this a trip?
Chavonne:
[inaudible] a client.
Jenn:
If I could have you as a Connecticut therapist I’d be like …
Wednesdae:
Can I get a mailing address in Connecticut? Incredible. Also, I like you too much so I want to be friends. So, that’s not going to work.
Chavonne:
Already done. Already done. It was that way when I met Jenn, too. I was like, “Should I stop talking to her so she can be my friend?” “No!”
Wednesdae:
Don’t you love … See? This is the other problem. I fucking love my therapist.
Jenn:
Yes, I love mine.
Wednesdae:
I love my therapist.
Chavonne:
Love her.
Wednesdae:
I would do anything for her. If she’s listening, I would do anything for you, Carrie.
Chavonne:
Seriously, yeah.
Wednesdae:
Anything for you. She has gotten me through some of the worst times in my adult life. We’ve been together for almost 10 years. It makes me teary-eyed when I think about it.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Wednesdae:
And now I’m like, I kind of wish we had become friends.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Wednesdae:
You’re the perfect therapist for me, but this is what I need. I need you to be pissed.
Chavonne:
Totally. Totally. Yeah, yeah. I completely agree.
Wednesdae:
It’s hard.
Chavonne:
I’ve told mine if things are too calm for me, I’m like, “Can I just pay you? We’ll do Amazon Watch Party. I can’t lose you. I have to keep you. We can talk about …” Well, we do talk about RuPaul’s Drag Race probably too much, but we can talk about that for three sessions long if it means that you will stay with me. She’s two years older. I was like, “You’ll be 80 and I’ll be 78 calling you. God willing we’re there.”
Wednesdae:
I love it. I love it.
Jenn:
That brings up-
Chavonne:
So, I get it. Yeah.
Jenn:
… dual relationships, which is something that I think about a lot on this podcast. I’m like, “Friendship? Do you want to be friends? I’m going to recommend you to everyone, but also-”
Chavonne:
Right.
Jenn:
But I was almost seeing this future where you and your therapist, if your therapist gives consent for this, can be friends.
Wednesdae:
Yeah.
Jenn:
Both of you, where that can be what it is.
Chavonne:
My dream.
Jenn:
My therapist are my friends. Maybe that’s because I’m always on the dual relationship side of this. I say, “Hey, friend,” at the beginning of every session.
Chavonne:
I’m going to try that next week and see what mine says, just [inaudible].
Jenn:
You should.
Wednesdae:
No. I asked my therapist how she is at the beginning of every session as [inaudible].
Jenn:
Me, too. Me, too.
Chavonne:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jenn:
Me, too. Every single time. I’ve been in therapies-
Chavonne:
That’s surprising to me.
Jenn:
Yeah. I’ve been in therapy for almost 28 years. Almost 28 years. Not the same therapist. My initial therapist really harmed me, actually, but I’ve been … It’s a different world there, but I’ve always said that. 13-year-old me was like, “Hey friend. What are we doing? What are you doing?” “Hey adult, what are you doing? Let’s talk about it.” It just helps me feel more able to be open.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Jenn:
And transparent.
Chavonne:
And you trying to cancel me. Yeah. I’m like, “Oh, what are you doing?” What?
Jenn:
Yeah. Me, too.
Chavonne:
She doesn’t have to tell me, but I’m like, “Oh, are you going out of town? Is it your birthday? Is it your husband’s birthday? How are your dogs?”
Wednesdae:
I love it. I love it.
Chavonne:
“Tell me everything.”
Jenn:
Yeah. I used to say, “Oh, thank you for being human. Okay, see you next time. I love you, love you. Bye.”
Chavonne:
I’m like, “I’m so excited you’re going out of town. Bye.”
Wednesdae:
So, my office is in my house and pre-pandemic clients could see me here. We’re talking about what that means and we built a door to separate it off from the house, HIPAA-compliant, all that good stuff. The clients are starting to ask about being in person, so clients come to my house. It’s a really in-depth personal experience. They really see how fucking weird I am. So, we have a black house. I’m the only black house on the block. It’s got white-
Chavonne:
Wait. Black on the outside?
Wednesdae:
Yeah, black black.
Chavonne:
Oh, interesting. I like that idea, but also I feel like my house would be eight gazillion degrees here. That’s the first thing I thought.
Wednesdae:
We’re in New England, so-
Chavonne:
We would die. We would all die.
Wednesdae:
It’s got white trim and we keep our three Halloween skeletons out all year round. They have names.
Chavonne:
Always. Yeah.
Wednesdae:
They have outfits. They hold signs for neighbors. My thesis in grad school was on political art making for burnout by making peace poles. So, we have peace polls in our front yard. We have like a BLM peace pole. We have a Trans Lives Matter peace pole.
Jenn:
Wow.
Wednesdae:
When the neighbors that just bought the house next to us bought the house, they were very well aware of who they lived next to.
Jenn:
Mm-hmm. I love that.
Wednesdae:
The neighbors across the street have given up … It’s weird. There’s all these adults around us and sometimes I feel like I’m a teenager that someone let loose more than an actual adult. And I always tell everyone I was punk pre Hot Topic, so I had to make my shit.
Jenn:
Amazing.
Wednesdae:
So, sometimes when neighbors are like, “This is really cool,” or, “Your peace poles made me feel really safe,” I’m always a little like, “Oh, yeah. I’m an adult.”
Jenn:
I love that. It’s like adult playtime. Why can’t we make ourselves feel safe? Why can’t we do it in a creative way? Why can’t we … I love the idea of a pole for peace. What a grounded way to do that. I think … I’m not trying to do a violent thing. I’m pushing my fist down, but I’m just imagining the pole going in.
Wednesdae:
[inaudible].
Jenn:
Yeah. Oh, my gosh! That’s so important. As I said before we recorded, you were a dream guest for me, and right now I’m like … and I’m not even going to ask Chavonne’s permission. We need to do a deep dive later.
Wednesdae:
Okay. Okay.
Chavonne:
I was thinking that.
Wednesdae:
Okay.
Jenn:
So, we’ve always done embodiment journeys, but doing a deep dive into … When we’re in such an authentic space together, I want more. So, that is where I’m sitting. How do you feel about that Wednesdae? And also, you don’t have to answer on the podcast.
Wednesdae:
Oh, no, of course. Oh, my gosh.
Jenn:
No pressure [inaudible].
Chavonne:
But we’re asking you right now.
Wednesdae:
We’re going to be best friends when we’re done.
Jenn:
Yes!
Chavonne:
I’m so excited. I’m so excited.
Jenn:
Oh, sorry for being [inaudible].
Wednesdae:
In August, September, this is happening.
Chavonne:
We have talked about this so many times, Jenn, that we’re going to create a signal that we know we’re going to ask and neither us did. Then we just asked and we’re like, I’m just going to say it, and then it’s always works out. It works every time. Every time.
Wednesdae:
Oh, but I love that. I love when people are like, “This is going to be a vulnerable moment.” And then I’m like, “Fuck, yeah! Fuck, yeah!” You have your vulnerable moment. I’m here for this shit.
Chavonne:
I love this. Oh, my gosh.
Jenn:
Yeah. This is what I want to be around.
Chavonne:
You [inaudible].
Jenn:
We’re transparent. I don’t even like that phrase to a fault, but we are so transparent with each other. I feel very safe being like, I’m deciding for us right now in this moment. Let’s at least once [inaudible]-
Chavonne:
At least we got that episode. I’m like, I’m not going to speak for Jim, but I’m like, I speak for you all the fucking time. What are you speak for me all the fucking time? What are we doing?
Wednesdae:
I think that’s actually the sign of not just a beautiful friendship, but a beautiful, respectful partnership. And I say [inaudible]-
Jenn:
Yeah. Yes. I think we’re very respectful. Yeah.
Wednesdae:
… culture about partnership, owning a business together or being married, but we don’t talk about how friendships can have deep chosen family partnerships.
Chavonne:
Absolutely.
Jenn:
Oh, yes. Mm-hmm.
Wednesdae:
That are just as beautiful and intimate as any romantic relationship. Any business relationship where you write down agreements. I love it.
Chavonne:
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Wednesdae:
This is what we should be here for
Jenn:
I love my Chavonne.
Chavonne:
But do my, I know. I love my Jenn. She helped me do my job description from one of my employees. She didn’t even realize she was doing it. We’re just shooting the shit, right?
Jenn:
Which helped me.
Chavonne:
Like, “What do you think about this,” and I’m like, “Here we go,” and now I have an employee, so thank you. We just work like that. That’s just how we work together. [inaudible].
Jenn:
Yeah. We were just joking this morning that we are each other’s business partners even when we’re not.
Chavonne:
I know. I was like, “Here’s all the ideas you gave me,” and I just typed them off and sent them to someone. You didn’t even know.
Jenn:
Yeah. I need your approval for this. Can you please tell me what this sounds like? Thank you.
Chavonne:
[inaudible] benefits package. Thank you.
Jenn:
And I’m like, “Let’s talk about it.” I want to talk about mine. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Chavonne:
It’s a true gift. It really is. Yeah. Okay. I love you. I think I’m going to cry.
Thanks. I love you. Thanks for being vulnerable.
Jenn:
And for being sweaty [inaudible]. Yeah. Yes.
Chavonne:
Thank thanks for being transparent and vulnerable and just swimming in this with us.
Jenn:
Yeah.
Chavonne:
I love this podcast water that we all get to swim in, continue with our lighthouse ocean analogies. There’s a lot of buoys here. We can see them. We’re like, “Look, they’re right there. Look! There they are.” I like that kind of, it’s, I guess maybe anchoring so everything could be a little wild, but we have an anchor here together. So [inaudible]-
And like Jenn said … Oh, sorry.
Jenn:
No, no, no. Please.
Chavonne:
And like Jenn said, you are such a dream guest. I have been ready for this for months, and every time I get an email from you, I’m like, “Yes, it’s coming.” You have to correct me because I sent you the template in a rude way but …
Wednesdae:
I like that. It was very much one of those moments where I was like, “Oh, no. I do that all the time.”
Jenn:
Yeah.
Chavonne:
I like to forward things before I read them and I just think I’ve changed everything, but not enough. And I’m like, “Shit!”
Jenn:
Yeah. I’m like a, “Here’s your first follow-up email to the email I just wrote you,” person. That is a defining aspect of my communication.
Chavonne:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jenn:
Love it.
Chavonne:
It’s true.
Jenn:
I used to say, “Sorry for the second email,” and now I say, “Here is the second email.”
Wednesdae:
So, that’s so fun saying to me. I’m an apologizer. I think I grew up having a mom that was a massive apologizer, and I have, it’s one of the only truly close, close friends that I have here who I consider part of my family, and she once said to me, “You know, sometimes when you’re apologizing, it’s like you’re apologizing for existing when you’re existence is the reason why the world keeps going.”
Chavonne:
Oh, that’s beautiful.
Wednesdae:
It was just like, “I’m so going to say, ‘Sorry,’ but in my head, this is going to play.”
Chavonne:
Oh, that’s beautiful. What a gift. What a gift. Yeah.
Jenn:
That was like a warm hug. You get to keep a warm hug from this person. Oh, my gosh.
Chavonne:
That’s so special. That’s so special.
Jenn:
Oh, my gosh. I love it.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Jenn:
Okay. I’m pivoting. It’s okay if I pivot?
Chavonne:
Oh, you should because we are just chatting away.
[54:57]
Jenn:
Well, this is how I know when they need to come back. This is how, I’m like, I’m just going to say it when it happens because like, “Oh, this needs to continue.”
So, the second half of our podcast title, The Rest of Us, how do you identify within the rest of us, whatever that means to you, and we’d also love for you to share your pronouns, even though we already mentioned them. I like to center them here and we do, and name your privileged identities as well, just kind of all in context together.
Wednesdae:
We are the rest of us. The screen is the rest of us. Every human being that’s ever been told they don’t belong when really the don’t belongs make up the majority of the world, we are the rest of us. And the rest of us actually takes over more, right? It’s kind of like there’s the 1% and the rest of us is the 99. And that’s kind of how I’ve always seen it. And I also, it’s part of your title that I love the most, which is this idea that only the privileged few have ever been able to understand embodiment, but only from the context of privilege. We understand the context of embodiment through the context of marginalization and oppression. And that’s true embodiment, right?
Jenn:
Yes. Yes.
Wednesdae:
True embodiment is, “Ooh, there’s all these places I have privilege. There’s all these places they don’t. They all make a whole fucking person.”
Chavonne:
Absolutely.
Jenn:
Yes, they do.
Wednesdae:
My pronouns aren’t they/them. That was an interesting experience. My partner always talk about how she/they actually feels comfortable, but when I was doing that, people weren’t honoring the they and the they is really important to me. Publicly, I really keep my pronouns pretty solid, and then when the close people in my life quote, unquote, “Slip up,” it’s not really a slip up for me. If a stranger were to do it, I’d be really offended, but when it’s people that I love, I’m like, “No, you know that that’s actually okay.” And that’s true for me and not every trans person, so this is not to give anyone permission to misgender people. We each get to have our own boundaries around that, which is cool.
And, I mean, reality of my privilege is I’m white. I have two parents that are still married. Yes, I take care of my mom, but my dad lives with my mom and takes care of her full time. I have a dad who was able to financially retire early to do that. I have a younger sibling who’s perfectly able-bodied and doesn’t need anything and can provide some level of emotional support. If we think we’re anxious. If you ever met him, you would be like, “That’s walking anxiety.” The fact that I’m the one that’s having stomach issues from anxiety and not him is shocking.
I’m married. I live in a state where trans people aren’t oppressed. It’s not perfect, but I’m certainly way safer than most people. My whiteness has definitely saved me in moments where it was the only thing I had and I can afford to be disabled and still work. To me, that’s really big. I own a house.
Not everyone gets that privilege. Okay, that took work and time, but there’s a lot of other things tied to that. I always struggle with financial privilege. I’m always really honest with people about that. I was raised in middle class, Upstate New York. I got to go to a private school in high school. That was how my parents saved my life because I don’t think, when I was 14, if you had told me I would be in my thirties doing podcasts, I would’ve been like, “I’m not making it to 16, so I don’t know what you’re talking about.” That’s a privilege. A privilege is that I had adults that wanted to save me.
Jenn:
Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
Chavonne:
Wow.
Jenn:
There’s something at the beginning of every season we record what’s up since we ended the last season? What’s going on? What are we looking forward to? We realized in real time that our podcast title has the word rest in it. That’s not on here, so I’m just curious how that … Right? The [inaudible] I sent you at that time. Yeah. I also do this where it’s like, “Rest.” How does that word sit for you? What does that word bring up for you? What are your impressions of the word rest at this moment? I’m just curious.
Wednesdae:
Oh, gosh. Huge. You just asked an activist workaholic what rest means. No, I do. I have a strong reaction to that word always. It’s something that comes up in my life a lot. And so, on one hand, to be really honest, being on medical leave, there’s been this impression floating out there amongst my colleagues that I’ve been doing so much work, but the reality is I’m doing this podcast in two or three trainings over the next few months so that I can raise money for Project HEAL. But other than that, I get to watch some Real Housewives. It’s so trashy and embarrassing, but I’m going to admit it here. Really [inaudible]-
Jenn:
I love trash TV-
Wednesdae:
… privileged people that think their lives have problems when the reality is very few of them have real problems that I consider real problems. They’re not sitting here being like, “Well, I’m going back to school. I’m going to max out my lifetime loans. How are we going to make enough money so we don’t lose our house?” And now I got someone that owns three houses getting mad because so-and-so wore the same red dress. I just fucking can’t. But it makes me feel really good about my life.
My partner is still working, but we have had this boundary that we both do not work on Fridays. Fridays are our rest day, and those are our days for us together. And it doesn’t always work out that way, but that’s a boundary we’ve been trying to set. As I move into working for myself and going to school, is that there needs to be intentional time. If I don’t book rest in my calendar, it will never happen. And I know that about myself. So, for me, rest is also, you need to schedule it. You need to stick to that boundary and you set that boundary for yourself.
Chavonne:
Mm-hmm.
Jenn:
Wow. Thank you for that very vulnerable answer. I’m sure that felt really raw. The word rest feels very raw for me, too, which is probably why I didn’t even notice. It was right in the middle of our podcast this whole time.
Chavonne:
It’s why it took us three fucking years to figure that out.
Wednesdae:
I love that. I’m like, “Wait. What?”
Jenn:
Yeah. Well, what’s that?
Wednesdae:
What’s that.
Jenn:
Something that has just kind of been sitting in my body as we’ve been chatting and just kind of popped back up again. I think I can have words to this, I think, I think, I’ll try, is we can schedule rest, we can work on embodiment, we can be present. And also our body has a say, too. Something that you were talking about earlier is sometimes our body knows before we can logically get there. For me, it’s because anxiety, those thoughts take a while to float forward because I have so many, it’s going to get there eventually. But my body’s usually going to figure that out before I do. Before me, the conscious me has that.
And so, I’m just sitting in the space of how powerful that is to even have an intention for Fridays with just your partner and to have this medical leave be spacious and restful and scheduling things so that they’re more likely to happen and all of that stuff.
So, your body doesn’t have to be the one to say that. I’m just hearing that as such an act of love and that’s what I’m trying to say. That’s really sitting for me, feels aspirational for me also because my body always decides. I think I’m like, “Oh, I’ll go to bed an hour early,” and I’ll always have this intentional rest time. But just looking in that direction has had a huge impact on my life. But it is my body that tells me to do that. I’m not like, “Oh, look at the time, I guess I’ll go do my next boundary self session.” It’s like I can’t. I usually say, “That’s all she wrote.” I think that’s what I say. I’ll have to ask my partner, but I think I go, “That’s all she wrote.” And then I’m out of there. I don’t say anything else. I just figure, “Fuck that.”
Chavonne:
I don’t see clients anymore. Oh, sorry. Did I interrupt?
Jenn:
No. Go ahead. No. It’s all right.
Chavonne:
Oh, sorry. I don’t see clients anymore, but I used to say all the time, “If you don’t slow down, your body is going to slow you down.” And I’ve said that to my mom, people in my life all the time. And then just last year I was like, “Oh, shit! Me, too? Oh, me? Oh, that works for me. Oh, I have to slow down. Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah.” My body’s like, “We are done. We are taking this time off.” And I, again, want to find that space where I see the buoy instead of the brick wall, but that’s not happening. So, I really like the idea of … Actually last year was a good year for that, but I really like the idea of scheduling it, like, “This is when I’m going to rest.” Yeah. That’s really nice.
I do have me nights. I’ve done that since before I got married to my current … It always feels weird when I say, “My current husband,” but this is my second marriage. But when I was single, I created me nights and I did that and then I lose them and I have to bring them back all the time. But I need to be more intentional about doing things that feel fun instead of the night’s over. And I’m like, “I didn’t actually do what I wanted to do. I just didn’t do anything.” So, I really, I did this restful, like, “Today is I’m going to do this. So, I’m going to start trying to do more of that.” That’s really helpful.
Our last episode that just came out … Well actually when this comes out, it’ll be like months ago, but the one that came out on the 11th, what Jenn talked about the chaos time-
Jenn:
Of May.
Chavonne:
Of May. Sorry. I was like, “The 11th,” like you’re going to know what that means. Whatever. On the 11th of May, we talked about chaos time, and that’s been really helpful, too. So, I don’t have anything scheduled. If things pop up for work, that’s my Friday right now. I refuse to have appointments. If things pop up, I do them. If not, that’s fine. So, I just rest.
Sorry, go ahead. I keep talking. Go ahead.
Wednesdae:
No, I think … No, I mean sometimes people have to set the boundary for me. My partner plays D&D with one of our friends, and I’ve tried and it’s not my thing. Being in fantasy and having to think on my feet actually makes me anxious. That’s what I’ve learned. So, he’ll play till 11:00 at night. And so, Friday nights, I get all the alone time by force.
So, that’s usually when I paint because I wouldn’t paint or spend time doing that if I wasn’t forced to be alone. So, it’s been like watch his choice to do something separate from us that takes care of him that he enjoys, has forced me to do the same thing. So, I think sometimes it’s a thing we have to schedule and sometimes it’s a thing that we [inaudible] the people around us, set a boundary that isn’t really them setting an intentional boundary. It’s just the natural process of, right?
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Wednesdae:
And that’s been really cool because I think, if he didn’t do that, I probably wouldn’t just say to him on a Friday night, “I’m going to go downstairs and paint. Bye.”
Chavonne:
Mm-hmm. Yeah. That’s really nice. Yeah. I really like that.
Jenn:
Forced rest, but in the most loving sort of way. I love the way that you described that. Wow! Oh, I forgot. I talked about chaos time. I actually forgot about it. So, thank you for the reminder.
Chavonne:
I texted you the day after we recorded and I was like, “Today is chaos.” I didn’t hear from you all day. I was like, “I’m doing it.”
Jenn:
That was a week ago.
Chavonne:
I loved it. Was that a week? Yeah, it was … No, it was two weeks ago. Wait, was it?
Jenn:
No, it was a week ago. Oh, we recorded it two weeks ago. You’re right.
Chavonne:
Two weeks ago.
Jenn:
I’m sorry.
Chavonne:
I was like, “Yeah, yeah.” And I texted you the next day and I was like, “This is what’s happening. It’s [inaudible].”
Jenn:
But I forgot. So, I appreciate that because the first idea is to do it d for 90 minutes every day. But I’ve already rejected that completely because it does not functionally work. I tried. So, because it didn’t work in such a hardcore way, I forgot. That’s what I do.
Chavonne:
Now, I schedule a thing on Friday. It’s like I refuse to do any appointments. And so, if I work, I work, but it’s like whatever’s coming up for me, and then I can do work that I don’t have to be at my computer for. I can be on my laptop, on my couch, and then I can go do this and go get my whatever. And that’s been really helpful. Kelley Deal, right? Kelly Deal?
Jenn:
Yep. Yep.
Chavonne:
Yeah. So [inaudible] her.
Jenn:
But they’re not her original ideas, but she reminded me of them recently. Yes.
Chavonne:
Gotcha. Yeah.
Jenn:
Yeah. Those come from the ’90s. Here, let’s pivot.
Chavonne:
Because I keep, I’m just like-
Jenn:
Wait. Can I just say Friends is a very problematic show, but the word pivot will always remind me of David Schwimmer saying, “Pivot,” in this incredible gag reel of them trying to move a couch up a New York imitation very tight stairwell. And they cannot keep their shit together. So, I love the word pivot because, for decades now, it has reminded me of that gag reel, which is originally on a DVD because you couldn’t just stream it at the time. But I bought, I had all of them, but I only watched that one. Yeah. “Let’s pivot. Let’s pivot. Do it.”
[1:07:58]
Chavonne:
Pivot. Okay. I really want to know about your work with Rainbow Recovery and Project HEAL. How has that work changed and challenged your own relationship with your embodiment? What learning and then learning feels like it was only possible because of the space you hold with your clients or patients, whichever you use, and those supported by these organizations?
Wednesdae:
Gosh. So, I mean, Rainbow Recovery is the kind of private practice consulting business that my partner and I own. It’s been really cool to move away from just client work and be asked to come and actually do consulting for local mental health agencies. So, right now I’m working with one that wants to basically make sure that their entire agency and they’re a nonprofit that serves the entire state of Connecticut. So, that’s cool. They want to make sure they get gender affirming care for every age, every client, and that every staff member that works for them, regardless of position can do it. And that’s been really cool. One of my close friends works there, and that’s kind of how it started was we joke that we have our friendship and then we have a consensual, we’re not each other’s supervisors, but we text each other’s supervisory things, relationship in the middle of the day when we want to throw our phones because of our jobs.
And it went from that to me being like, I’ll come do a free training and then being like, “You should get paid.” And then that turning into this, which was really cool. And it also taught me that sometimes being a really kind person and offering to do the thing for free might not always jibe with everybody, but it actually got me somewhere. And I get a lot of criticism from people for not charging enough money or for offering to do things for free. And I don’t see it as me not valuing my time. Sometimes I see it as this is actually my act of love. I love what I do so much that I wish I could afford to do this for everybody for free.
And so, it’s been really cool to watch other places and spaces become safer, therefore more embodied, therefore more clinically capable. And to get to have a hand in that is really beautiful. And then on the other end, Project HEAL is a national nonprofit. They’re the only nonprofit that pays for eating disorder treatment for anyone in the country who can’t afford it. It’s really amazing.
Chavonne:
Wow!
Wednesdae:
And so, I do a lot of work with them raising money, and any money that I raise goes directly to them and pays for people’s treatment. And I’ve had clients that have gotten scholarships from them.
Chavonne:
Wow!
Wednesdae:
So, I’ve seen clients that have really struggled. And I think all eating disorder treatment facilities are inherently harmful. And I think when someone really needs that, if they can take what they need and forget the rest, it can be a really helpful experience. And I’ve really watched people that are really physically ill. I hate when we talk about eating disorders as sickness, but you see someone’s body is not able to function. And to get a scholarship and to go somewhere for 30 days and to not have to worry about your life while you’re gone is such an incredible gift. And it’s really amazing to be part of that part. And then there’s also a lot of advocacy and activism in the eating disorder space that they do.
I don’t know. I always say to everyone, if I could just be on the board of Project HEAL as an actual job and only raise money for them all day, every day, it’s truly been the love of my life to do that work-
Chavonne:
Wow.
Wednesdae:
… because everyone deserves care. Everyone deserves a therapist. Everyone deserves a dietician. And everyone deserves someone that is trained in what they’re going through, hopefully has lived experience or similar identities. We all deserve that and I get the feeling this probably rings true for both of you. We deserve that and we didn’t get it. I fucking deserve that.
Chavonne:
Absolutely.
Wednesdae:
12-year-old me deserved a therapist that understood what I was going through and she harmed me. And I will never forget her name. I will never forget her address. I have never forgotten this person.
Chavonne:
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Jenn:
Yeah. Same here.
Wednesdae:
Right?
Jenn:
Yeah.
Wednesdae:
I don’t want to be remembered like that.
Chavonne:
Right.
Jenn:
Yeah. I’ll never forget how they used me for their, “That’s interesting. Oh, I’ll have to write that down and remember that for later. Thank you for this gift.” What about me?
Wednesdae:
Yeah. It wasn’t about you. That’s the problem.
Jenn:
That was the problem.
Wednesdae:
Yep. And personally, I learned a lot from that experience. It’s what led me-
Jenn:
Me, too.
Wednesdae:
… to make these choices.
Chavonne:
Same. Mm-hmm.
Jenn:
Me, too.
Wednesdae:
This therapist actually shared my story with someone in our community, fun, and the person figured out who my family was, and we couldn’t go to spaces that we were in. And my mom was a social worker, but wasn’t then. And so, didn’t know what to do with that information. And we lost a lot of people.
Chavonne:
Wow. Oh, I’m so sorry.
Jenn:
Me, too.
Wednesdae:
Yeah. Sometimes when other therapists are like, “You’re really harsh about our profession,” I’m like, “Yeah, because it’s inherently fucking harmful.” My clients are not stories for cocktail hour. My clients are human beings.
Jenn:
My training to be a dietician is some of the most harmful years of my life-
Chavonne:
I bet.
Jenn:
… to me personally.
Wednesdae:
Oh, I bet.
Jenn:
Yeah.
Chavonne:
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jenn:
Ooh! And yeah. I don’t know. I only have grunts right now. It’s so [inaudible].
Wednesdae:
It’s like creating my own space and being in a space where I’m on this board. I’m not rich, I’m not famous. I see myself as kind of an average person in comparison. And I’m treated with the same dignity and respect. I’m treated I belong there just as much as everybody else. My opinion is valued. That’s been more therapeutic than a lot of things that I’ve gone through because it’s really shown me my worth. And they show everybody their worth. And I get to take that and put it into my business practice. So, there’s a really beautiful kind of symbiotic relationship of learning, which means I’ve had to equally unlearn a lot of what my training in the eating disorder world taught me, right?
This world taught me that everybody was sick, that there was only one right way to recover. That recovery did look the same for everybody, that if clients didn’t listen or couldn’t do something, they were inherently failing or I was failing.
Jenn:
Or non-compliant.
Wednesdae:
[inaudible]. Right? I fucking [inaudible]-
Jenn:
Ugh!
Wednesdae:
… so much. Oh! And the other things that I’ve learned through my clients have been things like when you have autism and you go through a lot of the therapies that they used to have when we were kids, this idea of compliance meant being so compliant, you didn’t learn consent or no. And so, a lot of my clients with autism that are women have had horrible sexual abuse experiences. So, to me, non-compliant is, I’m making a choice for me that you don’t like.
Chavonne:
Right. Mm-hmm.
Jenn:
Yes.
Wednesdae:
I encourage non-compliance to everybody listening.
Jenn:
Yes. It’s like a no to other people as a yes to you. Why aren’t we encouraging that?
Wednesdae:
Well, because, to recover, you must eat six meals a day, starting at 8:45 AM, ending at 7:00 PM. You can’t do too much exercise because that’s exercise abuse. But if you don’t move at all, you’re probably depressed and therefore you need medications you’re not consenting to. And I did that for the last two years thinking that I could really change the system. And what I learned is that I can actually change parts of the system, and I really believe I have. But the parts of treatment that are inherently harmful, I cannot change on my own. So, I cannot do it anymore.
Chavonne:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
Jenn:
Yeah. I came to the same conclusion.
Chavonne:
Same.
Jenn:
At the expense of my own health at first. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a very hard thing.
Chavonne:
Yeah. Mm-hmm. It was hard [inaudible] my own shop. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And also, I’m sitting with you as we’re talking about this therapist, I have heard is I’m like, “Oh, God! I know that’s been me. I know that I’ve done unlearning in the last said,” it’s been a long time, 15 years since I’ve been doing this, maybe even more than that. It makes me sick to think that I’ve been that person. But all I can do moving forward is make sure that I don’t do it again. Make sure that I help train people, help mentor people, so they’re not the ones doing it. That’s the only recompense, not recompense, penance is not the right word, but something like that, that I can do. Repair. Repair. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Do no harm is not real. Jenn says that all the time. It is not real.
Jenn:
I do.
Chavonne:
Yeah. We can do our best and we can repair when we need to, but it is not real, so yeah.
Jenn:
Yeah. You can’t come home to a lie. Actually, I wrote down right next to it, “Do no harm is fucking bullshit.”
Chavonne:
Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Wednesdae:
I’ve been doing a lot of work with Gloria Lucas, and now going to positivity pride, which has been so beautiful for her to let me into her work around harm reduction and become a harm reduction provider. Because to be a harm reduction provider, you’re going to do harm. You’re going to reduce the ways in which you do it, and the ways in which our culture does it, but you can never erase harm. Our culture would have to be completely rebuilt in ways that I don’t think we’re capable of as human beings right now. And that’s okay.
Jenn:
Yeah. It’s also very gaslight-y to say, “Let’s erase harm.”
Chavonne:
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Wednesdae:
Right.
Jenn:
My body remembers. That version of me from that age that’s still in here remembers. We can’t erase it. Same thing when we do harm. We can’t erase it.
Chavonne:
Right. As much as I wish I could, because it hurts to even think about it, but obviously I cannot. I cannot. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Wednesdae:
I also feel like I say this to clients all the time. When I think about the space that we hold for our clients, is this idea that unfortunately we’ve been harmed and harm teaches us something. And it doesn’t always have to teach us fear or to be scared that our body is wrong. It can also teach us the things that we will never do to someone we will try our best not to do to someone. It teaches us the things that we deserve that we never got, that we’re going to take now. And it’s not to tell someone that their harm wasn’t terrible or to do the whole, there’s a silver lining, but I think there’s just some realities that, I don’t know. I hate the abuse that I went through and it also made me this person. And I don’t completely hate this person.
Jenn:
Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Chavonne:
Oh, my gosh.
[1:19:04]
Jenn:
Okay. This is resonating so strongly with my body. Sometimes all I have is a grunt or, “Oh, my gosh,” which is not my usual baseline thing. My usually baseline thinking is, “Oh, fuck!” Right? Even though, “Oh, my gosh!” I’m like, “Interesting the place I’m sitting in.”
You’re reminding me of something that happened before we came to this space today, which is in our email exchanges, you piqued my interest, our interest and curiosity with boundaries related to an email signature, related to auto replies and beyond. We’re talking a lot about boundaries today as well. And I’m very interested in this topic. When we were talking earlier about rest, it wasn’t lost on me that we were all like, “Yeah, you got to create boundaries. And then I have to stick to them and then I lose them, and then I return to them.”
So, it’s like a very ongoing influx, such a human conversation. I love this learning and unlearning. So, what have you found that we can learn and unlearn from each other surrounding these things? So, I use the word stereotypes here because that’s how it has started to land for me. Stereotypes of productivity, what that looks like. Availability, capability and capacity related to being a clinician who then is a human who should be able to access their own embodiment, their humanity. And the other things that that brings us, I’m curious about boundaries and how you interact with yourself, other people and beyond.
Wednesdae:
So, my automatic replies actually came out of a lack of boundaries and feeling always this urgency culture and feeling like I did always have to be available, that I wasn’t working hard enough, that I would lose financial opportunities if I didn’t get back to someone right away.
And I think working in the eating disorder world, that’s a thing that people actually experience quite a lot, is urgency culture. Everybody’s always dying, even though no one’s actually dying. And so, the only way I could set a boundary was by creating one that I couldn’t disrespect. And so, by creating an automatic reply, unless I remember to go in and edit it, it sets an instant boundary. And I’ve changed it over time based on what my current availability is, what I’m open to, what I’m not open to.
I also think a lot of people reach out asking for free work and not a come to a podcast, like a come to a consultation, but we can’t pay you. Come to a training, but we can’t pay you and we won’t do it as a donation training for something that you care about. Like I owe people something, like I’m so lucky to have my career, or people maybe assume based on social media that I must be a lot more affluent than I am. I will assure all of you listening that I can’t pay my electric bill yet because I need to get paid before I can do that. That’s being real. I think people make assumptions a lot about therapists and their work, the capacity we have, the money we have, that we should be available. People also try to decide for us what an emergency is. And so, this was kind of my way of being, not my monkeys, not my circus.
And I get to pause and make a decision and an intentional choice about what I respond to and how. And that’s hard for me. I always joke with people, I hate when there’s a little notification on my phone. That little red dot makes me nuts. And I’m learning to tolerate the red dot because I know someone’s at least gotten a reply. And I also think that an automatic reply is a really good way to show respect. You made the time to reach out to me. You are being notified that I will get back to you and in what timeframe I have capacity to get back to you and in what capacity I will respond based on what I’m available for.
And I know that I’ve emailed people and gotten that back. It’s actually been really helpful. It eases my anxiety about why someone is or isn’t responding. And then, it goes in their little folder and you forget about it till they respond. “Put my automatic reply in a Wednesdae folder,” and know that in 48 hours or 72 hours, you’ll get a response. And sometimes my response is like, “I need more time.” But you’ll know that you will get something. And I think that that can be really healing for people, too. And it’s really human.
Chavonne:
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I love it. I need to go do that now. I remember reading it the first time being like, what is this? I love this. I’m going to do it six weeks later, whatever, six months later. I love this. And I really love the thing you said, the boundary that I can’t disrespect. I was like, “Holy shit. What? What does that I even mean in life?” I love it. I really, really, really love it. So, yeah, yeah, yeah. But again, it’s interesting. Yeah. So, Jenn, you can talk.
Jenn:
Yeah. It’s helping me realize, so I have an email signature that’s like, I’m a multiply chronically ill person. I have disabilities. I am neurodivergent. Give me some space. I want to normalize that for you, too. But it’s not an auto reply, it’s just when I reply. I only put on auto replies when I am not in the office, which in the last six months, I have done a lot of that, actually. But I miss it. I miss knowing that other people receive that response and then I can have space. So, you’re just helping me realize that putting it as an email signature is a boundary I can disrespect. So, that’s very interesting to me. So, thank you for that.
[1:24:48]
Chavonne:
Thank you so much for being here with us. What can we all do to make a difference with what we’ve learned today?
Wednesdae:
Oh, my gosh. Don’t be afraid to message or email that person that you think has something that you want. Most likely, they probably also have something to give. And you probably have something to give to them that they can learn from. I think fear really stops us. I don’t know. Build your own little home, like an actual art project and figure out what home feels like for you. So, you can give that to yourself and your body. Don’t be afraid to hit the brick wall. Sometimes we need it.
And I think most importantly to remember, everyone is suffering right now. This is just a time of suffering and grief for humanity. And I always tell everyone that knows me that I love the dark things. I love the scary things. I’m most comfortable at the bottom of the hole with a client. I find that’s where the richest soil comes from. That is where the best part of us comes from. So, it does hurt, but unfortunately, growth is painful and things have to start at the bottom of the hole before they can see the light. But it’s there. It’s there. And we get to build that together.
So, for anybody listening, you can message me all you want. I don’t care. I will respond when I can, how I can. I will set my own boundary. If I disrespect my boundary, that’s my fault, not yours. And it’s cool if you want to sit at the bottom of the hole. I’m here for that.
Chavonne:
Yeah. Oof. Hmm. I love it. I really do.
Jenn:
You are such a well, like a vessel.
Chavonne:
Seriously. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. Oh, my gosh. Can’t wait to have you back already. I’m just ready. I’m just-
Jenn:
Yep, yep, yep!
Chavonne:
… “Let’s do this.” I’m ready. Sorry, go ahead. I got excited. I got to dance for a second. Okay, okay. I’m back. I’m back.
Jenn:
Dance about it. Dance about it. So, again, thank you so much for being here with us, and as we finish this up for today, just the today part.
Chavonne:
Just today.
[1:26:28]
Jenn:
Yeah, just today. What would you like everyone listening to know about what you’re up to and where they can find you and what direction do you see your career and/or work, whatever you’d like to refer to it as, taking shape and taking you in the future?
Wednesdae:
Cool. Well, I mean, starting hopefully in July, if anyone wants supervision or training or education or mentorship around eating disorders and gender affirming care and weight stigma and body liberation, they can find me at rainbow-recovery.org. That’s my business website. You can message us through that. My partner and I are always available for those things. Hopefully I’ll be taking new clients. So, I’m licensed in Connecticut, Pennsylvania, Georgia, Minnesota. I know.
So, if you’re in any of those states and you’d like a gender queer fat therapist who’s disabled and chronically ill to hold your hand for your own journey with any of those things, I’m here for that. My hope is that I’ll be doing some of those things in good time spaces where I can make enough money to survive without burning out, and that I’ll be in school, hopefully writing this research that I actually really want to change the fields. I want us to really understand the trauma that our bodies go through, the healing that our bodies deserve. And I really just, I think I want to write something that really proves the harm we’ve done and the way we can learn to unarm people.
So, I mean, either that or I hope I have an art show somewhere big and fancy with all of my trauma art, so that everyone could come be traumatized with me.
Jenn:
I love trauma art!
Wednesdae:
And hopefully maybe both. I hope I change the world by writing a dissertation that will probably torture me and they can see the art I make about it that was all about me.
Jenn:
Yes.
Chavonne:
Best of all worlds.
Wednesdae:
Yes.
Chavonne:
All the good stuff. All the good stuff. Oh, my goodness.
Jenn:
A full, encompassing human experience through art. “Here’s what I made and here’s what it did to me. Enjoy.”
Chavonne:
Yes. Join me, please. I love that. And this has been, I have lots of questions when we get off mic. But also just this has been amazing. This has been amazing, amazing. Thank you.
Jenn:
It’s amazing.
Chavonne:
Sorry if I sing for a second. It’s been incredible. What a gift. Sincerely, what a gift to have you on with us.
Jenn:
Yes. Thank you for your spaciousness and inviting us to that.
Chavonne:
Mm-hmm. Thank you.
Jenn:
Okay. Until next time-
Chavonne:
Bye.
Jenn:
… bye.
Jenn: Thank you for listening to Season 3 of the Embodiment for the Rest of Us podcast. Episodes will be published every two weeks-ish (let’s be real!) wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also find the podcast at our website, EmbodimentForTheRestOfUs.com.
Chavonne: And follow us on social media, on both Twitter @EmbodimentUs and on Instagram @EmbodimentForTheRestOfUs. We look forward to being with you again next time in this evolving conversation.