Embodiment for the Rest of Us – Season 3, Episode 5: Esther Tambe
July 6, 2023
Chavonne (she/her) and Jenn (she/her) interviewed Esther Tambe (she/her) about her embodiment journey.
Esther Tambe is a Registered Dietitian and Certified Diabetes Care and Education Specialist based in Long Island, NY. She is the founder of Esther Tambe Nutrition, LLC. She received her master’s degree in Nutrition with a concentration in Exercise Science from Long Island University. She also received her bachelor’s degrees in Nutrition from Long Island University and Health Science-Public Health at Stony Brook University.
Esther has worked in underserved communities, providing nutrition education and counseling to individuals with chronic illnesses like diabetes, hypertension, chronic kidney disease, and HIV/AIDS.
Esther is committed to increasing awareness of eating disorders and weight-inclusive nutrition counseling in Black communities. In addition to her work as a dietitian, Esther is involved in several other projects and initiatives.
In August 2020, Esther co-founded Fight Through Flights Inc. This non-profit organization aims to empower and support the healing of Black women living with breast cancer and breast cancer survivors.
Esther enjoys traveling worldwide, taking Zumba classes, and spending time with her family outside of work.
Content Warning: discussion of privilege, discussion of diet culture, discussion of fatphobia, discussion of eating disorders, discussion of healthism, discussion of racism, discussion of mental health
Trigger Warnings:
53:48: Jenn discusses prescribed weight loss
A few highlights:
3:53: Esther shares her understanding of embodiment and her own embodiment journey
7:54: Esther discusses how the pandemic affected her embodiment practices
20:49: Esther shares her understanding of “the rest of us” and how she is a part of that, as well as her privileges
28:20: Esther discusses how her work with historically and currently marginalized populations has influenced her own relationship with embodiment
34:16: Esther shares her experience with embodiment as a diabetes educator
1:06:45: Esther discusses how listeners can make a difference based on this conversation
1:08:18: Esther shares where to be found and what’s next for her
Links from this episode:
Music: “Bees and Bumblebees (Abeilles et Bourdons), Op. 562” by Eugène Dédé through the Creative Commons License
Please follow us on social media:
Twitter: @embodimentus
Instagram: @embodimentfortherestofus
Captions
EFTROU Season 3 Episode 5 is 1 hour, 13 minutes, and 09 seconds long. (1:13:09)
Chavonne: Hello there! I’m Chavonne McClay (she/her).
Jenn: And I’m Jenn Jackson (she/her).
Chavonne: This is Season 3 of Embodiment for the Rest of Us. A podcast series exploring topics and intersections that exist in fat, queer, and disability liberation!
Jenn: In this show, we interview those with lived experience and professionals alike to learn how they are affecting radical change and how we can all make this world a safer and more welcoming place for all humans who are historically and currently marginalized and should be centered, listened to, and supported.
Chavonne: Captions and content warnings are provided in the show notes for each episode, including specific time stamps, so that you can skip triggering content any time that feels supportive to you! This podcast is a representation of our co-host and guest experiences and may not be reflective of yours. These conversations are not medical advice, and are not a substitute for mental health or nutrition support.
Jenn: In addition, the conversations held here are not exhaustive in their scope or depth. These topics, these perspectives are not complete and are always in process. These are just highlights! Just like posts on social media, individual articles, or any other podcast, this is just a snapshot of the full picture.
Chavonne: We are always interested in any feedback on this process if something needs to be addressed. You can email us at Listener@EmbodimentForTheRestOfUs.com.
[1:37]
(C): Welcome to the 5th episode of season 3 of the Embodiment for the Rest of Us podcast. In today’s episode, we chat with the supportive, thoughtful, traveled dietitian and social justice advocate, Esther Tambe, about her embodiment journey and holding harm reductive space!
(J): Esther Tambe is a Registered Dietitian and Certified Diabetes Care and Education Specialist based in Long Island, NY. She is the founder of Esther Tambe Nutrition, LLC. She received her master’s degree in Nutrition with a concentration in Exercise Science from Long Island University. She also received her bachelor’s degrees in Nutrition from Long Island University and Health Science-Public Health at Stony Brook University. Esther has worked in underserved communities, providing nutrition education and counseling to individuals with chronic illnesses like diabetes, hypertension, chronic kidney disease, and HIV/AIDS.
(C): Esther is committed to increasing awareness of eating disorders and weight-inclusive nutrition counseling in Black communities. In addition to her work as a dietitian, Esther is involved in several other projects and initiatives. In August 2020, Esther co-founded Fight Through Flights, Inc. This non-profit organization aims to empower and support the healing of Black women living with breast cancer and breast cancer survivors. Esther enjoys traveling worldwide, taking Zumba classes, and spending time with her family outside of work.
(J): Thank you so much for being here with us dear listeners! This season just keeps getting better and better. We are so inspired and excited to share all of these conversations!
[3:18]
Chavonne:
We are fan-girling and have an incredible guest today for season three. We are so excited to have Esther Tambe, she/her, joining us from Senegal, someone who’s wonderfully compassionate and kind approach to diabetes and intuitive eating inspires us constantly. There is so much joy to be shared here today, folks. How are you doing today, Esther?
Esther:
I’m doing great. I’m very excited to be here. Thank you for having me on the podcast today and I look forward to our conversation.
Jenn:
Awesome. I’m so excited you’re here.
Chavonne:
We’re so excited.
[3:53]
Jenn:
We’re so excited. I love it. So, as we start this conversation about being present to and in our bodies, I’d love to start with asking our usual centering question about the themes of our podcast and how they occur to and for you. Can you share with us what embodiment means to you and what your embodiment journey has been like, if you would like to share?
Esther:
Sure. I feel embodiment has been a process that I’ve actually realized over the last few years and just been more within my body and in tune to my body, but actually being vulnerable and allowing myself to feel things and do things that I never would have done. So that’s what the journey is. Although I’ve heard it being thrown around, you hear all types of words, they become a buzzword, but to actually be embodied and watching that happen within myself has been interesting. But I think it’s being able to be bold, taking up space, doing things I never would have done due to fear of what one is thinking, but in the best way possible, just living my best life. That’s what has been embodiment for me.
Chavonne:
Oh, I love that. That’s beautiful. That’s really beautiful.
Jenn:
When you were talking about being vulnerable, being bold, taking up space, I wrote down action in the face of fear, just thinking about just how cool that is and how lovely, and I was feeling grateful on your behalf that you get to have that experience with yourself. It sounds amazing. Does an example come to mind about how it was different before or even recently compared to, say, today?
Esther:
I would say overall, I mean, for many years I’ve just always shied away, been in the background. I wouldn’t be doing a podcast, right? This type of stuff scares me. I don’t like doing things like public speaking and all that stuff. So just even knowing that I have a voice, I have words, why should I continue to stay quiet? How can I share my message with others? So to me, that’s part of embodiment, actually knowing you can do this, don’t sit back and keep all your gems to yourself when there are other people out there who may need you and you can help them with. So I find that to just be embodiment. So this new place where I am career-wise, or even personally, that is what I see embodiment as.
Jenn:
Wow, I got chills when you said that.
Chavonne:
I said, “Fuck, yes” in my head when you said that, when you’re like, “I don’t need to sit back,” I’m like, “Fuck, yes. Yes. You’re absolutely right.” Yeah. That’s a beautiful way of finding that space within yourself to be able to share yourself with others. I think that’s beautiful. It really is.
Jenn:
And you’re on our podcast.
Chavonne:
You came on our podcast, you did. Are we you first interview ever, or…
Esther:
No.
Chavonne:
Okay, cool.
Esther:
It’s part of the getting used to everything of like, okay, not saying no where normally I probably would keep scrolling in that email where you’re like, “Hey, do you want to come on?” I’m like, “No, I’m good.” But it’s like, “No, do it.” So it’s one of those things where it’s like, be scared, but knowing I’m still doing it. I’m at least not shaking right now, which is good, but there are times where I feel like this becomes a process so just owning it and knowing this is who I am.
Chavonne:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jenn:
Wow.
Chavonne:
And you have such a important perspective and it’s necessary and so appreciated. Absolutely.
Jenn:
Yeah. Oh, I’m so excited you’re here. I’m so excited to hear that. I just, I’m thrilled that people get to experience you because of the outwardness that comes from your embodiment journey because you’re incredible. I’m obsessed with you. You’re incredible. So I love that you get to experience the things like that about yourself too, right? Because that’s also what you get out of being in action about those things is you get to experience what you’re like and get to see how awesome you are. I love that for you.
Esther:
Yes.
Jenn:
I love it.
Esther:
We’re on that journey.
Jenn:
Wow.
[7:54]
Chavonne:
Absolutely. As a human being, how has this ongoing pandemic affected your embodiment practices in ways that challenge your process? Or has there been anything that feels like it connects to you further? What lights you up about your work and when are you feeling most embodied?
Esther:
And I may not be [inaudible]. I’m going to say the pandemic was a little bit different for me as I was going into the pandemic dealing with a major loss. But yet the pandemic in itself and how I decided to continue to live my life has been different in a sense where I was like, “You know what? I want that freedom and flexibility.” I let go of my nine to five job and decided I’m going to do this private practice on my own and start a business and all these things, and the pandemic has allowed for me to grow. So I find myself doing a little bit more things for self-care, but more so more things that bring me joy which has been traveling. So the pandemic has been beneficial to me. There are days where I’m like, okay, of course everything else that was going on with it, but it’s allowed for me to just continue to see who I am and do the things that I want to do without waiting on someone, waiting on the number to change on the scale or something. It’s just allowing for me to do the things, whether it’s doing it ugly, doing it scared, but just getting it done.
Jenn:
Yes.
Chavonne:
Ooh, yes.
Jenn:
Now I want to say, “Fuck, yes.”
Chavonne:
Say it.
Jenn:
Fuck, yes. I love that.
Chavonne:
I love that. I really love that.
Jenn:
It’s so expansive what you’re talking about. It’s so awesome. It sounds like travel is really important to you along with the growth. Does that feel true? Just the way you said that, something about that made me think that, I don’t know if I’m right or not, but-
Esther:
Yeah. It’s definitely very important knowing that it’s what brings me joy, but even when I do travel, knowing the clarity and healing I get from it and the peace. So I tend to do a lot of solo travel or I travel with my sister. And then there’s the part of where it allows me to uphold my sister’s legacy. As sisters, we would travel together. So I’m able to just embody all of that within that one experience and that keeps me full.
Jenn:
Wow.
Chavonne:
I love it. I really love that.
Jenn:
Does it feel okay to ask how often you want to travel? I don’t want to put any pressure on you to say a number like that on here, because you can say no.
Esther:
How often I want to travel? If life worked out for me, I’d want to be on the go all the time.
Jenn:
Okay.
Esther:
I mean, ideally every other month. I know last year I might have did every two months or every other month, and then things just happen to come up. Or if I find a great deal, I’ll end up in places I never thought I would be in. Just like Senegal, this wasn’t necessarily a planned trip either. So it just happened to come up and made sense, and then we just figured it out. So a lot of the places more so what comes up, and then how do I go about it? So the part of even planning a trip or having that itinerary, something about it just makes me feel good and I think that’s still part of the healing of it all and then actually doing everything. So it’s just one of those maybe my creative outlets that I didn’t realize I had, but that’s what it is.
Chavonne:
Yeah. I agree. I love this idea of traveling so much for you, but as you were speaking, I was like, yeah, travel can be really embodied because you’re taking yourself to this place where hopefully you don’t have as much to do and you get to be with yourself a bit more, but no matter what, you’re in this different environment, you’re taking yourself somewhere else to exist in this different environment. So of course, I would think you feel a lot more connected to yourself. That’s really cool. I hadn’t thought of it that way.
Jenn:
Oh-
Esther:
And especially if you’re traveling-
Jenn:
Oh, sorry, go ahead.
Esther:
Especially if you’re traveling… Sorry. Especially if you’re traveling by yourself. Solo travel, it’s like you’re really just relying on yourself, what goes on. So whether it’s even having the guts to ask someone to take a picture for you, or you do it yourself. Recently, a lot of my photos when I am traveling myself, I had to learn how to just be okay with using a tripod in front of other people and just sitting there taking all these things like, wait, is that really you? Is this who you’re doing this? But it is, but also want to be able to capture all the things. So it’s just knowing those type of things, like going to foreign countries where you know no one. I mean, luckily sometimes I do have maybe internet access, but it’s really just relying on me, my gut, and my thumb tips, and going from there.
Jenn:
Wow.
Chavonne:
Love it. Love it.
Jenn:
That gave me chills again. There’s something about the way you talk about travel-
Chavonne:
Maybe you want to go book something right now.
Jenn:
Yeah, exactly.
Esther:
Do it. I always-
Chavonne:
I’m going to try.
Jenn:
That’s amazing.
Esther:
You’d be surprised what’s out there. It doesn’t have to necessarily be out the country. It could be the most, not even the most basic thing because that could be basics for anyone, but it can starting off small and then doing something. Whether it’s a one-day staycation to a week solo travel, but there’s something with just having that peace to yourself, no responsibility, not worrying about anyone else. Just you.
Chavonne:
Yeah. Oof. That sounds really nice.
Jenn:
Just discovery is what that sounds like. Just, like, what are you going to discover? It sounds so interesting. And… Oh, what was I thinking there? All I can think is, “Fuck, yes,” again. So I’ll just say it so maybe that gets out of my brain. This-
Chavonne:
Is “Fuck, yes” ever out of your brain?
Jenn:
No, it’s not.
Chavonne:
Fuck, yes and fuck, no. Yeah.
Jenn:
Never. Never. Oh, I know. You know, were talking, Chavonne, about when you travel, or this is how I was kind of hearing her saying it, is that it’s like you’re the constant thing in all of that. You and your body together as this unit are the constant when you travel. When you take in new information, when you’re trying to read a sign or just figure out where you’re going or however it is that you’re trying to get somewhere, it’s so present moment, it’s so engaging, it’s so easy for the brain to be interested because everything is new, all that kind of stuff. It is so embodied. I don’t know that I’ve thought about this before until this conversation.
Chavonne:
Me either.
Jenn:
Have you?
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Jenn:
Okay.
Chavonne:
Same. No, this is really crazy.
Jenn:
Traveling is so embodied. I feel very different in my embodiment when traveling. I never put that together before. So journal topic number one for me, I always write them down, but I want to explore that more. Especially when you were talking about the peacefulness that you feel and also that you notice that you’re healing when you’re traveling and that you have healed when you’re traveling, that’s really particularly interesting to me, that it’s not just the constant, like here me and my body go doing another travel thing, but also travel changes you, and so how are you also not the same, are both equally embodied experiences. So I think that’s so cool.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Esther:
Right. And I think it’s also worth thinking about where you are majority of your time, whatever stress or things you’re dealing with, it’s still there. It’s still in the moment. But when you physically remove yourself from an environment that may cause stress or just not have you connected to your body, you don’t realize it till you actually remove yourself from it. So that’s why I think sometimes when I do travel and I’m like, okay, it might have been stressful trying not to worry did I miss my flight or not, but when I do now get in this new environment, I literally can just have a relaxing, decompressed moment. It takes away everything. And you know the difference when it’s like, wait, my skin is feeling better, I’m drinking the water. You get the cues from your body, like okay, I clearly was not in a well environment, I need to change something.
Chavonne:
Yeah. I think that’s why staycations don’t work for me because I might not be doing things but if I’m in my house, I’m like, “Oh, but I need to do that,” and “Oh, I’m going to work on that.” And it’s really hard to, I mean, I love my home, I can relax in my home, but it’s not a vacation in my home. It’s like I’m going to relax before I have to do some work things tomorrow morning or whatever. Yeah. Hadn’t thought of that. Yeah.
Jenn:
Oh dang. They don’t work for me either.
Chavonne:
It’s never worked for me. It means I’m going to go declutter something the entire week.
Jenn:
Me too.
Chavonne:
There’s no break. There’s none. I mean, there’s a break, but it’s not the same as leaving town.
Esther:
Right.
Jenn:
Wow.
Chavonne:
Or even just getting an Airbnb in my same town. I could do that. Well, actually, I probably couldn’t because I could just drive down the street. Which is what I’d do.
Esther:
Yeah. Let it be at least 30 to 40 minutes away.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Jenn:
Yeah. Wow.
Chavonne:
Like, let’s go home and do some laundry.
Jenn:
This is really incredible. I’ve never realized this before. It’s so true, how embodied traveling is and how not embodied I am in a staycation. In fact, I think I’m less embodied than I am in my normal life on a staycation. I’m so uncomfortable and disconnected that I almost have to do something. It’s very different. Well, I guess that is being embodied. It is being embodied, but it’s like to my own anxiety or something. Yeah.
Chavonne:
I love it, yeah.
Jenn:
Wow. Okay. Oh, I’m fascinated. Yeah. Again, journal topic because I never thought of that. And I love to travel and I have been not traveling very… Well, the last six months are very different, but I have not traveled very much in the pandemic and I’ve missed it so much. And you’re really reminding me of the ways in which my body is missing it also. The logic of being next to a beach is pretty clear to me. I’m like, oh, I want to be next to the sun, next to the water.
Chavonne:
Oh, God, yes.
Jenn:
When you were talking about that before we started recording, I’m like, “Yes, this is exactly what I need,” but it’s also what my body misses, I think, is what I’m getting present to the weird chills I keep getting in this conversation, like, “Ooh, my body is also telling me something about this,” so that’s really, that’s so interesting. So I’m really glad that you said that because I’m going to think about that for a while. That feels amazing. I love that you get that experience.
Chavonne:
Yeah, I’m very flattered.
Esther:
It’s been quite an experience and I take it all in. I mean, sometimes I’m like, “Okay, I’m exhausted from a flight,” if it was going over 16, 24 hours, but after a while it’s like, “All right, I’ll be able to rest.” Jet lag will kick in. I’ll get back to my regular schedule, but when will I have this chance ever again? I don’t know. So I try to take it when I can.
Chavonne:
Yeah, yeah.
Jenn:
Yes. I love that about flight deals. I’m always like, “Is this my opportunity?” I love that. I love that. And do you find there’s a difference, I guess last question about this for me, is do you find that there’s a difference between how long you travel, how long it takes for the tiredness and the stress of your home life and all of that to kind of fade and how long you need in a place? Do you feel like you’re getting a better sense of that where you’re like, “Ooh, 12 days, that’s my travel time,” or “I need a whole month.” I’m just curious because I have no idea for myself so I’m wondering.
Esther:
No, I think it really just varies or me knowing that if I’m traveling for x amount of days, what do I have before and after it? Because usually the prep for traveling could already have you exhausted making sure you’re packed and all these things and errands, or making sure I did all my billing before leaving because I’m not going to check emails. And then coming back is like, all right, well what do I have? So it’s knowing that, but that’s why I’m usually aware of knowing what’s going on with my schedule. But I can do it as little as a four-day type vacation to… My longest so far has been three weeks away, and that in itself wasn’t necessarily exhausting, but it’s like, when you’re going from country to country within. But I think just knowing what happens, but then I may never know what happens. I might go home tomorrow and knock out for two and a half days. I have no idea, right?
Chavonne:
Sure, sure.
Esther:
So my body will let me know based on did you overdo it or did you actually relax? And I will respond based on how tired I am, maybe over the weekend or Monday. But it’s just listening to your body for that too.
Chavonne:
That sounds like a very embodied response.
Jenn:
It sure does.
Chavonne:
Like, “Oh, I need this. I’m going to do this.” Absolutely.
Jenn:
Yeah. Oh, I love it. So thank you for all that. I mean, my brain is swimming. I’m so excited at this point.
Chavonne:
I’m like, going on Kayak while we’re talking. No, I’m kidding.
[20:48]
Jenn:
Yeah. Where can we go? I know. I’m like, “Ooh, are there little cabins I could go to close to here in the mountains? That sounds really nice.” So the second half of our podcast title is the Rest of Us, so we’re curious, what does the rest of us mean to you? How do you identify within the rest of us? We’d also love for you to share your pronouns and name your privileged identities in context here too, in the mix.
Esther:
Right. To me, the rest of us, I would see it as the non-dominant identities within our systems and identities. So for me, my pronouns are she/her, I am a Black parted woman living in this world. However, I do have privileges, whereas I am cisgendered, able-bodied, access to higher education, graduate level degrees. But then I also do have the marginalized identities that I deal with on a daily basis.
Jenn:
Just thinking about the sort of mini topic we were just on, how does that feel about travel? Does that change? Do you notice these things changing as you travel, that things are harder or easier based on privileges? I have lots of guesses about that and I’ve heard lots of things, but I’m just curious.
Esther:
I think it depends on where you’re traveling to. You see all types of stuff. Sometimes culture and demographics, it gets different as you go into different countries, and I’m in Africa right now, but I’m in West Africa. East Africa has different cultures, South Africa has different cultures, so I think it’s just going to be different regardless of where you are. I’m mindful of certain things when I’m traveling but when it comes to, I guess, inclusiveness, it varies. The one thing I will say, and I’m actually doing a presentation about this, is the travel industry being size inclusive. That is something I’m able to notice right away and certain countries you can tell, or it’s a little bit made obvious when one sees someone in a larger body and it’s they’re not used to that. But yeah, so there’s those type of things that do come up and being in the place where I am now to actually notice those type of stuff, it’s just interesting. But yeah, you still deal with it wherever you are. Doesn’t matter what part.
Chavonne:
When you talk about size inclusive travel, have you experienced any issues around that or is it just something that you’ve observed?
Esther:
I personally haven’t experienced anything around that. It’s more so that I’ve observed it or just even with the industry itself where content creators, you don’t see a lot of content creators in a larger body that maybe hotel or someone is providing the free trip or the free stay to them. So all I see is the same type of person. Are you saying that I’m not worthy of travel if I don’t look like this person? Kind of like with anything else. But then also with, you know, things one could think about, like spas at resorts, your robes, is that actually inclusive for everyone? Even just thinking about ramps. Does everyone have a ramp? Some of these chairs. Is it a child sitting in the chair or is it supposed to be an adult sitting in the chair? So it’s just those type of things which makes sense.
But these are things that are on resorts and hotels and people are visiting, so if something breaks and that makes someone not feel comfortable, did we actually accommodate them? Or are we even thinking about that as an issue? But then depending on what country you’re in, if it’s a country that’s typically individuals who are always in a smaller body, they’re not really considering that not everyone looks like the same type of person in that said country.
Jenn:
You made me hear the term all-inclusive resort so differently today than I have ever heard it before, right? Because they mean pay one price, right, but then plus tip or whatever, but the amenities and things that go along with that, like you’re mentioning the robe, is it really all-inclusive if the robe can’t fit your body, if you can’t tie it around you? Is it really all-inclusive if you can’t lounge on the chairs that they have for you? How exclusive does it end up being if they haven’t considered all bodies, that they’re only considering the stereotypical travel blogger kind of thing that you were alluding to earlier, which is mostly thin and white for sure across the board.
I want to see myself represented in travel in terms of my body size, so you were just making me think. I never hear that acknowledged in that phrase all-inclusive. They never say for all bodies, but you would hope it was implied but I think I’m getting very much that it’s not, right? So all is super subjective there and not really containing the nuance that makes it supportive. You are so great at expressing how something is for your body that it just lands for me. It’s so cool.
Chavonne:
Right.
Esther:
And even with that, I don’t think… It’s one thing being in the nutrition dietetics field and talking about bodies, but I don’t think hospitality, tourism, they’re thinking about, when they hear all-inclusive, they’re literally thinking food, drink, beverages. I don’t even think they think about or even realize what goes on with how that does affect other people.
Jenn:
I wish they did.
Esther:
It’s definitely like they skipped right over it. Hopefully one day. Hopefully.
Jenn:
Yeah.
Chavonne:
Yeah. I’m even thinking of going to a hotel and the shampoo, I’m like, that’s not, no, but that cannot go on this. This soap cannot go on this skin.
Jenn:
Oh my gosh.
Chavonne:
It’s just not even ability and size, it’s skin texture, it’s hair texture, all of it. All of it. So yeah, I’m trying to think of what an all-inclusive would look like in my head. That’s just really interesting. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
Jenn:
Wow.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Jenn:
I mean, I have no desire to go into the tourism industry, but I was like, “Wow, it would be so nice if someone wanted to do that. It would be…” I mean, it’s just an amazing kind of thought. Wow.
Chavonne:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jenn:
A journal topic for me. I want to put that in the universe.
Chavonne:
I love it. I love it.
Jenn:
And I love that you said you’re doing a presentation on that, considering this and thinking about this. Does it feel okay to ask who that presentation is to? Who’s going to learn about this? Because I’m super interested.
Esther:
So it’s actually a Women in Travel Summit. It’s a travel content creator. So this year it’s in Puerto Rico, it’s May 19th to the 21st. And I went last year for something else and I decided I wanted to, as I realized, because they’re all about inclusiveness, diversity and all that but the one thing I realized while I was there was like, well, there were no presenters that were in a larger body, was the actual chairs and stuff in the rooms for the presentations accommodating? And I was like, okay, well this is something I can talk about, just even talking about sizing and stiffness and kind of like with the way I treat clients, that everyone’s worthy of respectful care, same way as everyone’s worthy of travel. There should be some type of respect there. So I proposed it and that’s what we’re going with.
Chavonne:
Awesome. Congratulations. That’s really exciting.
Esther:
Yeah.
Jenn:
Amazing.
[28:20]
Chavonne:
I’m going to pivot a little bit away from travel and ask you about the work that you do. How has your work with historically and currently marginalized populations influenced your own relationship with embodiment? What learning and unlearning feels like it is only possible because of the space you hold as being anything other than the thin and white dominating influence on food and body?
Esther:
I guess to say it has been interesting in the sense where, especially within dietetics, prior to going back to school for nutrition, I did health science, public health. But a lot of the stuff that we were taught has been in a very weight-centric way. And as you’re going through school, you’re not necessarily, at least when I was, not necessarily questioning what you’re learning. You’re just assuming, well, this is what we’re being taught, it’s part of the curriculum, this must be the way to go. So even within the practice, you start to think that way and go with it.
What I have realized is though, regardless of the work, I’ve always worked within communities that were more so marginalized identities but for me to give back to my community. So even though I could have been in a hospital that wants to promote weight loss and all the things, that’s more so like, well, how am I connecting with my clients and patients as humans before going into this set agenda of you must lose x amount of pounds or I’m going to diagnose you based on this diagnosis of whatever a provider gave you and now I must give that type of nutrition therapy with it. So it’s always been patient first and the why before necessarily doing all the other things.
And then recently, I want to say as recent as three years is when I started to hear about HAES as a framework and intuitive eating. All the things where I was like, oh, this is what I’ve been doing or thinking, but just didn’t know there was a name to it. This is how I work with people regardless, because I always find that respectful care is number one. For me, if I can’t build a rapport or have that respect going on with a client, how is that going to allow for them to feel comfortable? So I always have been patient-centered. So as I see all the frameworks and the parts of the framework, I’m like, oh wait, this is what I have been doing, just didn’t know there was an actual name to it because I don’t necessarily feel like I need labels to everything either. It’s more so like, well, how do you connect with your client and how can you help them get to their goals? So it has been a lot of unlearning, but at the same time yet, I didn’t necessarily identify with what was taught to me anyway.
Chavonne:
So it sounds like when you did find HAES Body Neutrality, stuff like that, it landed really well for you. And were there parts of it that didn’t work for you or that you had to kind of cast to the side or has it been something that just felt right for you?
Esther:
For the most part. I mean, I think there’s certain parts with things where I’ll take, if anything, I feel like more bits of each different thing that works. But I don’t ever want to be like, well, this is all I do and what I do and I have to follow it this way because every person that walks in who I see, they’re all different. So I have to adjust and figure out what happens next. So it’s being able to use that critical thinking, thinking beyond the textbook and actually being like, all right, this is what we have here.
Chavonne:
Absolutely.
Jenn:
It sounds like it’d be really nice to be in a session with you, just get related to each other, yeah.
Chavonne:
To be seen and heard and held. Yeah.
Esther:
Right.
Jenn:
Just really lovely. I relate to that although I think I was more steeped in diet culture and needed to unlearn more than you have described. I really had to unlearn some things. My brain is… I’m a nerd, also neuro-divergent. Nutrition’s always been a special interest. So it was like, oh, this is how we do things. But also equally, it was so interesting and beautiful to learn how things actually are without the bias. And I’m just hearing in your expression of how you are with clients, how refreshing it is, how comforting it can be, even soothing it can be to just not have the bias, and I also heard power dynamic, in the room with the client. Because you were talking about humans first before you set an agenda. I thought that was so beautifully said. It’s like, yeah, the agenda can be felt in a room, so to be without it just made me want to be in a session with you. It sounds incredible.
Chavonne:
Totally, totally.
Esther:
Right. Yeah. I feel like especially the way we’re trained or most dieticians, it has to be to the point where it’s like, we can go left, we don’t always have to go right, it’s okay, there’s no need for that. But I feel like coming in with, let me read off of a paper, the client sees that. The client can also read you and feel it. So it’s like, I’m not going to lose sleep trying to make sure I had the perfect, yeah, I got this part of the assessment. If anything, we come back or if I’m in the middle of talking about something, I’m like, “Oh yeah, I forgot. Let’s talk about this and go back.” Just as they are human, we’re human and they need to see that. They need to see that we’re not this computer, we’re not this, all right, I have the perfect answer to your solution and you’re going to be fixed overnight. They need to actually see I can relate to you because you get it, and that’s what it comes down to, being able to relate in many ways.
[34:16]
Jenn:
Yeah, even if you don’t have that experience. I can hear that in what you’re saying that it’s like, let’s get me in there about that versus being like, “Come over to me, come over to my agenda. Come over to what we do here.” That kind of attitude or phrasing, I really respect that so I love that so much.
And it reminds me of the next question we have and this is a subject that’s really near and dear to me and that’s talking about diabetes. So me as someone with diabetes, and also I’m a diabetic educator in training so I’m so excited to be a future CDCES. In a part of the field that is trying to be more weight-inclusive and not always doing a great job says my training so far, but also just inclusive in general and not doing that great of a job so far. They’re working on it, but, meh. And it made me curious about your experience as a diabetes educator, how it’s changed your own embodiment in the field. We’ve already talked about who it’s usually centered around and for, and what you found that we can learn or unlearn surrounding stereotypes of dieticians. The agenda piece we’re already talking about, but anything else? Diabetes education itself and the stigma around diabetes and how harmful this field can be to dieticians and to clients. I mean, there’s a lot in there.
Esther:
Okay, so-
Jenn:
Please feel free to ask me to repeat anything.
Esther:
No, I’ll talk about the diabetes educator part. Honestly, how I became a diabetes educator was more so in the sense of what it’s like to be in this field where in order to feel it’s a need to get their respect, having the additional letters. So I’ve been already doing the work with working with people with diabetes, renal disease, all this stuff. But it’s like, okay, well I was in the hospital, how else can I add more credentials? What’s going to show that I am of worth to those interviewing me as a Black dietician in this field? So have all the credentials, continue to fill up higher. So doing the diabetes work is what I just was doing regardless, but now I just added that credential to it.
So now as I’m working with folks with diabetes, not everyone has diabetes, but it’s no different if I had the CDCES, which the new extra letter is a little bit too much, so there’s no difference, I still practice the same way whether you have diabetes, cancer, HIV, eating disorder, I’m still looking at you in the same way of how can I be inclusive, how is this going to give you respectful care, how can you feel safe? So that’s how I look at it. So just being a diabetes educator just allows me to say I’m a diabetes educator, but what I do with someone with diabetes versus someone with another thing, it’s not too much difference unless there is some other medical nutrition therapy needed. So I don’t think it has changed the way I practice. It’s just an additional certification I have, so to say. That’s the way I look at it.
In regards to diabetes education and how inclusive it is, it’s not, right? So I feel like there is a lot of unlearning that goes with it. And I 100% believe the diabetes field is very problematic in the sense that it’s rooted in a lot of stigma and shame. And it’s not just type 2, but it’s also type 1 and just everything in general. So if you have clients refusing to go see a provider because their numbers are not correct, but they’re getting worse. So everyone wants to talk about preventative care, preventative care, preventative care, but if a provider is going to have a client feel of shame and now this client is refusing to see the provider, there’s no preventative care there because that preventative care is now gone. Instead, your numbers are getting worse, you have complications where that could have been preventative if one went in to see the provider with no shame, fear or guilt and had their numbers or whatever their plan was talked about in a respectful manner.
But now if you go from diabetes to kidney disease due to the fact of avoiding appointments because you didn’t want to be shamed by your provider, where was the prevention? We missed a whole spot. We don’t see it. Instead we’re quick to say, “Your numbers weren’t great, lose some weight, let’s come back.” Then what? But if the client’s no longer wanting to come see you because they don’t want to hear a fatphobic comment and now they end up with a complication or something else, what did we really prevent?
Chavonne:
Right, right.
Jenn:
Yeah, them from accessing care.
Chavonne:
Yes. Right. From accessing care. Yeah.
Esther:
Which is the consequences and problems of weight bias and weight stigma in diabetes care.
Chavonne:
Absolutely.
Jenn:
Yes.
Chavonne:
Absolutely. And I’m all about representation obviously so I’m thinking as you were talking, I’m thinking about when my dad was diagnosed, how much of a better situation it would’ve been if he’d seen a diabetes educator that looked like him, who understood the cultural ramifications of not eating certain foods or societal ramifications of not eating certain food. Or even if it wasn’t my dad, seeing someone in a larger body, it’s just so, so, so, so important and I think it’s really great, obviously. I love representation, so I’m glad that you exist. I really am. I’m glad that Jenn exists for a lot of reasons, but also because-
Jenn:
Thank you, my love.
Chavonne:
… she’s becoming a diabetes… Love you. Also because she’s becoming a diabetes educator. Yeah, yeah.
Esther:
Right.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Esther:
And I think that too, there’s a representation, but then also sometimes the representation can be problematic too because they’re still going on this weight-centric harmful information and they’re still saying. So sometimes it’s like, well, this is what’s said, or it may be your own people that are also doing the harm too, right? So it’s just also knowing that-
Chavonne:
Right. Your internalized [inaudible] be your internalized racism, yeah.
Esther:
Right. So it’s just also knowing that until the information out there is starting to have the language that it needs, no one is understanding it fully. And then also, it’s an issue when it comes to those who don’t get it, especially those who may have the literacy issues, they hear a provider tell them, do this, they’re going to do it. Especially in certain communities it’s like, well, the provider’s the authority, they must know the best, let me listen. So then when it comes to, like, oh, a doctor’s telling you something versus a dietician telling you something, everyone’s going to say, my doctor, my doctor, my doctor said to do this so it must be right. Forget what the dietician says. So it now is also that dynamic of well, they see a provider as authority, no, we must listen. They won’t question it.
So with my clients, I tell them, question, why does someone tell you to do this? What does this number mean? Why do I have to do this? So they understand it too, whereas they’re so used to not asking these questions because sometimes their upbringing is don’t question authority, but you need to question authority. It’s okay to question authority.
Chavonne:
Always. Yeah. And I’m just so blown away thinking as you’re talking about all the stigma and diabetes education, I was like, it’s even before then all the prediabetes, because someone said they’re prediabetic and I was like, “That’s not a thing. I rebuke that.”
Esther:
Exactly.
Chavonne:
I can’t hear you talking about it. It’s we’re pre… Well, there’s always medical fatphobia, but we’re pre-planning even more [inaudible] fatphobia when we say things like that. It’s just-
Esther:
Even the prediabetes phase-
Chavonne:
It just makes makes me so mad.
Esther:
Even the prediabetes phase, that in itself can go back and forth with it. But at the end of the day what it does for most people is take them down some type of spiral. They start to engage in those disordered behaviors that actually do the opposite of what you want. Instead of, okay, well, you tell someone they have prediabetes, then what? What did you do to let them understand what this means, what their numbers mean, and what to do next? Have you done that part or are you just going to expect a random person to figure that out? So I think as much as everyone wants to blame the individual, the system is failing the individual and that’s what we have to come to terms with.
Chavonne:
Wait, am I wrong? Is prediabetes a thing? I thought it wasn’t, I’m sorry.
Jenn:
No, it is.
Esther:
It technically is a thing, but-
Chavonne:
Oh, I didn’t know that, I’m so sorry. I’m not a dietician. Sorry.
Jenn:
It is.
Esther:
Yeah. It’s technically a thing but then when you look into it and what it does and it’s like, it can be all of the things, but that is before you-
Chavonne:
I apologize. I didn’t realize, okay.
Esther:
Yeah, before you actually become diabetes, your numbers may be within that range.
Jenn:
Yeah. And they used to, it wasn’t officially a diagnosis, but they used to start tracking you with something called metabolic syndrome but it has changed to prediabetes and prediabetes is technically a diagnosis according to an insurance company.
Chavonne:
Oh, okay.
Jenn:
There’s an incredible article and I will have to find it, so bookmark to us, it’s called The Dubious Diagnosis, which is about how it came to be a diagnosis and what it is utilized. So it actually unlocks a certain level of your health insurance to you so it can be really beneficial.
Chavonne:
Oh, wow.
Jenn:
You can do a sort of, I don’t know, an oil change for a car. It feels like a weird analogy, but you can be like, “How’s my oil?” You just kind of go in for maintenance but you get access to it being covered more frequently. However, it’s more access points to care so it’s more access to bias and stigma and all of that because it doesn’t unlock you to a Health At Every Size provider, for example, right, it unlocks you to anyone who’s providing that service, even if they’re being harmful. And how it got there is really nefarious. That’s another one of my special interests. It’s like, is this okay? How did we get here? Who said this?
Because as you were talking Esther, it was so important. Diabetes education is supposed to reduce the likelihood of something called diabetes stress. It’s one of the goals, which is I don’t know what to do, I don’t know where to look, I don’t know how to get respectful care, my numbers are going the wrong direction, I feel like I’m failing. All of that is inside of this term diabetes stress. Diabetes education is supposed to be client- and person-centered and it’s supposed to alleviate that. We need to look at blood sugar over a long period of time. We don’t just look at one blood sugar, we don’t even just look at one A1C. These need to be spread out over time and we need to see what the pattern is and we need to look in a given day and times of day because the body is what’s doing diabetes, we aren’t doing diabetes, the body’s doing it. So we have to learn to note. Speaking of embodiment, we have to learn the patterns the body’s going through.
So I was hearing as you were talking, Esther, about that, and also I’m finding, and this is a part that I’m getting from the education itself to be a diabetes educator, is that people are often not told how do we know something’s working and how do we know it isn’t, but not according to individual responsibility. But medication, like surveillance and general blood sugars. How do we know if it’s even working? How do we know we got the information we needed and what are we going to use that for? When you were talking about that part of it, I was like, “Yes.” What a way to alleviate stress of what’s next. Let’s just literally tell people what’s next. Let’s tell them why we’re doing it. Let’s tell them how we’re going to check in on it. Let’s tell them how much of it is up to them, which is an incredible amount of things. What’s their autonomy piece, all of that stuff, versus just telling people what to do.
Diabetes education has, I mean, it is changing but it has a huge element of just tell people what to do. Monitor them, and it’s shifting its language but then in the education where we’re learning about it, they still say, “And now you have to do this,” and I’m like, “But how was that patient-centered? How was that client-centered?” Right, what we’re supposed to be doing, we’re supposed to look for, I mean, it’s just not quite a match yet. So I love hearing about you, Esther, in practice because I have diabetes but I was already doing the work. In eating disorder work, you do a lot of work with people with diabetes. It is a natural part. They’re together a lot. Aging in general, aging’s the number one risk factor for diabetes. I mean, people are aging. It just feels like a thing to know more about, and what I’ve learned from this education is I really didn’t know very much about diabetes at all until I started this training.
So I’m really glad to have it and I’m feeling really inspired by you right now and I’m so glad that you are… I almost hear, how would I say this? I hear the lack of stigma and bias that you just continue to treat people without an agenda and as human beings, right? Having diabetes doesn’t mean everything has to change and I think that’s a huge, important, that they can still talk to you as a person, that you can still see them as a person. That sounds like life-changing shit to me where it’s like, “Okay, you have diabetes, but let’s just talk as people.” Like, that just feels so important to me. People might even try to be egg-shelly around them or be careful.
I noticed that in my initial visits and I’m like, I said, “So I don’t understand what’s wrong here.” And they would say, “What do you mean what’s wrong?” I was like, “This is so different than any other doctor’s visit I’ve ever had in my life. Are we really concerned for me? Is this really bad? Do I not understand this?” Like, I said, “So I’m a dietician so I have some understanding, but I just feel like something’s wrong here.” And they kept telling me nothing’s wrong, but I realized later it was all the bias and stigma that was hidden and coded in all of the language that I was feeling in my body. And you sound so different from that, it’s so refreshing. The direction of it is even very different, I’m so grateful for you. So grateful.
Esther:
Yeah. I think the biggest thing, and I mean, I’ve had family members with diabetes, I’ve worked with people with diabetes, but it’s just kind of with any other illness or chronic illness, I’m not saying that for everyone they’re going to feel that way because there is maybe some parts of ableism to it, but it’s that you can still thrive with diabetes, whether it’s type 1, type 2, gestational, you can still thrive. And even if you are diagnosed with it, it is not the death sentence. It’s when there are complications, right? So that fear, when someone even has diabetes, they’re like, “Oh my god, I can’t have diabetes,” or “All this is going to give me diabetes,” which of course is not even true, it’s even that fear, it’s sometimes having to ask, like, “Why are you scared?” or “What have you seen?” Only to realize they’ve seen a family member pass away not realizing that maybe the family member didn’t get help right away because they might have went undiagnosed for so long or had medical trauma and just never went to go see a provider, right?
But there’s that stigma that you die from diabetes or you got diabetes because you were in a fat body where that’s not why you got diabetes. However, if it was the reason why you got diabetes, does that mean that we stop respecting you as a person because you have diabetes? There’s no sign that says that you have diabetes, don’t talk to me so you shouldn’t be treated that way. And that’s my biggest problem.
Jenn:
Ooh, fuck, yeah.
Chavonne:
Fuck, yeah.
Jenn:
Oh my God.
Chavonne:
The title of this episode is just “Fuck, Yeah.”
Jenn:
Yeah.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Jenn:
Fuck, yeah, with Esther Tambe.
Chavonne:
Yeah. I was sitting with because, yeah. I’m sitting with that because yeah, I don’t have diabetes, but I am expected to for lack of a better term. When I was pregnant with my first, I got tested so many times because he was just like, “You’re fine.” And I was like, “Yeah. I mean, okay. I didn’t know if I was going to be or not, but you just expected that I was going to have gestational diabetes,” and I feel like there’s this internalized fatphobia I had to come away with working through because I had that fear of getting it and this is why I need to blink and blink and blink and blink and I don’t have it. It just hasn’t happened even though it runs in my family, even my biological father had it. But yeah, it’s not a death’s intense, it’s just not. And I think that the more education there can be around that, the less fear it is of getting it, the less fear it is of having it and that’ll help with fatphobia in a lot of ways too.
Esther:
Right. I think it’s just a lot of it, and that’s why I always laugh about it, that a lot of the work that we do as dieticians sometimes, it’s really not about the food. At least for me, it’s not really about the food. It’s all the things that come with it and usually food’s a response to something. But for someone with diabetes, if they’re being called non-compliant or they think they’re not doing well, the lack of food they’re eating is usually a response to some type of stress, which is that fear of not doing diabetes right. There is no right way to do diabetes. There is no right way to do eating disorder recovery. All three of us can enter the same practice and be treated differently and have different outcomes, different goals. We can’t expect everyone to have this, well, this is how you do diabetes, this is treatment. It just doesn’t work.
And I think once everyone starts to realize that and know that, same with foods, you can eat foods, you can have scones and maybe that. What else are you eating with the food? Your cultural foods are okay, but are you actually hydrated with water? If you’re dehydrated, your blood sugar’s going to go up. If you’re on your period, your blood sugar’s going to go up. If you’re traveling different altitude, your blood sugar is up. So is it really the food or is it the environment and all the other things? But no one talks about that ever. Everyone just thinks it’s food, weight, body, that’s the reason why you have diabetes, and that’s not the case. And then if you break down diabetes, we have to remember that type 1 is an autoimmune disease. You have no control over that. None. But yet somehow you’re still to blame. You have no control over what your body does in that sense.
Jenn:
Yeah, I wish we did. Wouldn’t that be easy? But no, we don’t.
Esther:
Right.
Jenn:
Right? I said that all the time, like, “Oh, I wish. Wouldn’t that be that be so nice? A little easy button for the body. Don’t do that.” I wish I had one of those. And even with, I love what you were saying, right, type 1 diabetes is an autoimmune disorder, type 2 diabetes is an organ malfunction essentially that happens as a result of aging, stress, all the isms are a form of stress and they’re all structural and society driven. They’re not up to an individual at all. And food is not a simple conversation. “Just eat more vegetables.” I hear that a lot in the cancer space. “Just eat more vegetables.” First of all, that does not prevent cancer, just so everyone knows. And with diabetes, “Just have more protein, just eat fruits and vegetables, just reduce carbohydrate.” These “just” phrases are the shame and stigma, are inside this little minimizing sentence.
Esther:
Exactly, because now you’re worried.
Jenn:
And what did you say? It’s not about food, body, weight, right? And I love even how fast you said that because that’s how fast it comes at us, right?
Esther:
Yeah, it’s like all they’re told.
Jenn:
It’s like food, body, weight. But what about someone’s mental health and wellbeing? What about iatrogenic forms of harm, which is anything the medical system or agents like us of the medical system can do to someone that are actually heavily researched and we know that’s a major problem, right? Stigma causes incredible harm.
Chavonne:
Absolutely.
Jenn:
It causes absolutely more frequent death. It causes worse outcomes. You were talking and you said, “Diabetes isn’t a death sentence.” Well, it also doesn’t mean you’re going to lose your foot. It’s the most common thing that I hear because in the most stigmatizing time for diabetes education and treatment in the ’80s, ’90s and early 2000s, super stigmatizing, people were not able to access the care they needed, sometimes because of the provider themselves. Not just not going to the provider, but the provider did not offer them a treatment that would have helped because weight loss is offered. Trigger warning, sorry, I forgot to say that. It’s a panacea. “Just do this and you’re going to be better.” And so things are withheld.
So in other words, treating them differently, which is again, such an antithesis to what you’re saying, which is, “Just treat them like a person. The formula is still the same. Treat them like a person, normalize what’s going to help them.” So if it’s not them that did it, what does their body need in order to become more routine, normalized, systematized again. What does the body actually need in that moment? It definitely doesn’t need someone shaming the person. I don’t think there’s a body anywhere that’s like, “You know what I really need right now? Hey us, let’s go get some stigma and bias. That’s exactly what we need.”
Chavonne:
Hell, yeah.
Jenn:
Who’s seeking that? No one is seeking that. I often hear this, “Oh, providers don’t know they’re doing it,” especially about dieticians. But I mean, we’re some of the worst. Our colleagues are some of the absolute worst about this because they’re the “authority”, quote, unquote, on this. The doctor will be like, “Go talk to the dietician.” There’s like this hand wave, like just go. And so we are promoted as the one who should do this particular harm, right? It’s so ingrained. But we know what we’re we’re doing. That’s one of the things I’ve realized in my unlearning is it always felt weird to me anytime I went in that direction. My body knew that this was not okay. Even if my logic and my book knowledge and my dietician exam and my training and supervision and all that stuff told me this is what we do, my body still knew the difference. So I’m not sure I even really, and I don’t mean to make a blanket statement, people can’t know what they’re doing in real time because systems can block us from that, but I mean, at some cellular level, we know.
And so it just feels so refreshing to sit and talk with you in this space. It’s becoming less and less rare in our field, which is really nice, right? There are weight-inclusive programs. There are multiple in the United States. I mean, very few, but there’s multiple, at least there’s not just one. I can name two, only on the East Coast, but okay, we still have something. But it’s just refreshing that being a person means that we can cause less harm. I found that an incredible concept. Let’s just be people is harm reductive. Let’s just be people is preventive. Let’s just be people is risk reductive. That just is incredible to me and it really strikes me when you say that. So sorry, I was getting really excited. I have no idea why I talked for so long.
Esther:
No, I think it’s just really big in that case because even like you said, everyone thinks of the amputation, right, but if we did what we needed to do, and I think the big thing with diabetes other people fear is that it’s rooted in shame and misinformation. Now, if we actually told people how one gets their foot amputated, more than likely because there was an open wound, there was something that wasn’t taken properly care of, you may have not seen a podiatrist, you may have went and got your feet done or a pedicure, things that caused a cut and all, but no one’s explaining all of that. You didn’t just get diagnosed with diabetes and then three weeks later they amputated their leg. That didn’t just happen. But if that was actually part of education and being told to people versus, well, this is just going to happen, one would start to understand. So I think a lot of it is there’s all that misinformation out there.
Same with I ate this, I must have diabetes. I look like this, I must have diabetes. It’s like, no, where are you getting this from? We need to start actually being able to educate folks with inclusive language and updated research and tactics with it. Just the same with, and I will say, there’s a whole issue with correlation versus causation. Yes, we hear about correlation, but until it’s… It doesn’t cause it, just like the same with there is no cure for diabetes. You cannot reverse your diabetes. Once you’re at a chronic illness, you are at the chronic illness. You may be in remission, but you cannot reverse diabetes. So when you have all these programs telling you like, “Oh, pay x amount of money to reverse your diabetes,” guess what? You paid x amount of money to still be at the same place you were. Your numbers might just be a little bit lower, but you did not reverse it. You did not cure it. But that’s preying on those who are insecure and desperate to feel better and that’s not okay.
Chavonne:
Yes, agreed. And I was thinking as you were talking, even if someone has diabetes that gets to the point that they have to have something amputated, that doesn’t mean they can be treated differently. Health is not a moral imperative. If they get there, that’s just something else that you approach. It’s not like you are a bad person because this happens. Every once in a while, I just have to say help is not a moral imperative. I say it at least once a week that I just have to hear it coming out of my face, even if it’s to myself.
Esther:
Right.
Chavonne:
But yeah, I agree with everything that you said. Every single thing. Yeah.
Jenn:
Yeah, absolutely.
Chavonne:
There’s something else I was going to say and I got excited and now I can’t remember what it was. Sorry, go ahead.
Jenn:
Yeah, there’s a real palpable energy among us right now that’s very cool.
Chavonne:
[inaudible].
Jenn:
It’s really cool. Yeah. It’s passion. I think it’s passion. I love hearing our passion together and conversation about supporting people and just getting to be a whole person, right? A person who’s had a leg amputated is still a whole person, right, or a part of a leg. Just so they know, they’re still a whole person. The stigma and biased challenges to wholeness, they make me very passionate because I’m like, “No, they’re still a whole person.” Seeing a patient-centered care is choosing to see them as a whole person every time. And this is just, you’re so right about the misinformation. I love that framing of the direction, the speed, the magnitude of diabetes compared to something like a risk of having part of your body amputated that those, it’s not a fast track. Diabetes actually doesn’t move very fast.
Type 1, even though it’s a really very fast initiation of the condition itself, it was actually happening for a while. It just doesn’t really become detectable, noticeable and problematic for the body. But type 2 takes a really long time or it doesn’t. And sometimes you have a family history that’s coming at you from multiple directions down those lines and so it’s going to be a little faster for you. You might be at higher risk, but in 2023 there are incredible medications. We don’t just have Metformin anymore and we don’t just have, I mean, we have some really problematic medications in how they’re prescribed. We can kind of, in a really weight-centered way, it’s really problematic, and this kind of mechanic analogy I was using earlier, we can also make sure that we get tuneups medication-wise. Space holding is a kind of tuneup where we’re like, “You’re doing a great job. Look at all the stuff you’re doing. I wish you didn’t have to do all this.”
Doesn’t it suck that we have to do this stuff for our body when the body’s the one that got a little off kilter? Not us. We didn’t do that. Not the conscious being. It’s a completely subconscious process, in fact. We don’t channel our thoughts and go, “Prevent diabetes.” I mean, again, I wish we had an easy button like that. That would be really nice. But we don’t have that. So this is just, yeah, I just love hearing the passion and I especially love, I don’t know, it’s making me excited in a different way on my own journey so I appreciate that. As a person with diabetes and as a diabetes educator, both of those parts of me are really, really enjoying this space. Very supportive and affirming.
Esther:
And even like you said with the training, I think it’s with anything else, yeah, we got to learn the stuff sort of thing, but what we choose to do in practice with that certification defines how inclusive and what we are. So the training could be problematic. Doesn’t mean we now need to go do the harm from the problematic training. How can we adapt and adjust? And that’s the way I look at it. Even just with dietetics. I can take some of the things I’ve learned from dietetics, nutrient composition and maybe how you can get fiber from all these different things, but I don’t necessarily need to bring in the problematic stuff I learned from those trainings. So that’s the way I’ve just been going about what I’ve learned through my career in dietetics and all that stuff. So yeah, the diabetes field and research and part of the training can be problematic. Will I continue to study past exam? Yes. Will I now take that same information, do the harm on my clients? No. So I always look at it in that way too.
Jenn:
Yeah.
Chavonne:
It’s like, we had Aaron Flores on last time. Something that we talked about, still doing the training, still getting the letters, still doing the certifications, whatever, but it’s like, you’re getting in there so you can fuck shit up. You’re getting in there so you can radicalize it from within. So really, I’m always a fan of that obviously so I’m really glad that that is happening. And I thought of the other thing I was going to say really quickly. When, I think Esther, you said it’s rarely about the food, that feels very harm reductive in itself, that it’s not like, “You’re coming for this one thing, we’re going to focus on this one thing and that’s it. And then you’re going to do this with your weight,” or whatever, whatever. But instead it’s like, “It’s not just about the food. It’s this and this and this and this and this.” That’s really-
Esther:
Right. Exactly.
Chavonne:
Like Jenn said, it’s whole. It’s for a whole person. It’s so refreshing, especially in the helping field.
Jenn:
You just reminded me about something I also wanted to say, Esther, is that I noticed how you slow the conversation down by being person-centered. It feels so urgent when someone is diagnosed with diabetes, right, when their numbers are not trending in a direction that feel like they are “performing well”, quote, unquote, right? There’s a speed to that that really feels like it can take over a whole room and I can hear that the centering that you do around that, the grounding for the client, like let’s talk about what’s real here. Let’s talk about what’s misinformation. Let’s talk about how you’re not there to just be the expert, you also want them to leave with information that they can use and they don’t just keep coming to you for the expertise. I actually really love that because it’s the opposite of reinforcing the power dynamic. You’re like, “Tell me what works for you. Tell me what doesn’t work for you. Let’s talk about what’s real in this and how we know if it’s working.” All that stuff again, it’s just slowing down.
Esther:
Right, exactly. Slowing down, and I think also helping calm their anxiety or whatever they’re coming in with. So even if they set up that initial, they come in with, “Oh, I don’t have all my numbers,” or “Did you want all my meals on logs?” I’m like, “I never asked for that.” I just want to know what’s going on. I’m not telling you to check your blood sugar three times a day or twice a day because if you’re never checking it, I don’t expect you to all of a sudden start checking it twice a day. How can we get up there? If that means let’s check it once every three days and then we move up, I’d rather work that way. If you’re weighing yourself, cool, continue to weigh yourself. Maybe we’re not going to wait every day. Maybe it’s going to be twice a week, but I’m not going to take something away from what you’re doing, kind of go cold turkey out of nowhere because I’m now setting you up for failure, knowing that you have all this other stuff going on.
So how can we work towards that common goal, but at your pace, not my pace, because I’m not the one that’s dealing with that situation. They are. So I’m not going to try to overwhelm you and then have you feel defeated and then feel like a failure, and it’s pretty much what you’ve already been feeling because you have the diabetes that you must be a failure. So why am I going to try to reinforce that type of feeling with you?
Jenn:
Oh, so well said. And this is kind of the space that feels to me even beyond Health At Every Size and those other things where it’s like, “What are you doing? What’s working for you?” We don’t have to come to people like us and just go, “And now let’s change everything.” Right? What if they don’t want to change a single thing? That’s a thing to sit with. It’s so person-centered, I appreciate that very much. It’s like, we don’t have to change anything. Just to start with, what a stress reducer. I love that. It’s so intuitive, what you just said. So intuitive.
[1:06:45]
Chavonne:
Absolutely. Thank you so much for being here with us today. What can we all do to make a difference with what we learned today?
Esther:
I think probably heard it throughout, my biggest thing is treat everyone as the person, not the diagnosis, not the medical condition, not the body you want them to be or think they need to be, but treating humans like humans, providing that respectful care, it makes a big difference. It makes a big difference. It’s refreshing to the client to be like, “Oh wait, wow, I wasn’t expecting that.” Or “Are you sure you don’t want to talk about my weight?” “No, I don’t. I don’t want to talk about your weight, I really don’t. Not right now.” But, so just knowing that it’s not even a matter of necessarily even being relatable because not everyone’s going to have the same lived experiences, but to walk into a room, walk into a practice, and even just acknowledge someone and like, “Hi, how are you?” versus, “Hi, what did you eat last week?” or “What went wrong with your food log?” or “Why didn’t you record something?” It makes a difference.
Remember milestones, remember things that they talk about, what they were going to do. It makes them feel like, okay, you actually care about what you’re doing. It’s not just about what happened with food or for the week. Let them know that you were present with them in the room.
Jenn:
And I’ve heard and really got from you today, Esther, that you get to be a person in the room with them also and there’s something so powerful in two people getting to be people in the same room. That’s amazing. I love it.
Chavonne:
Absolutely.
[1:08:18]
Jenn:
I love that so much. Oh, I love that. I love that. So as we finish up this episode today, last little question set here. What would you like everyone listening to know about what you’re up to and how they can find you and what direction do you see your career and/or work, whatever you’d like to call it, taking in the future?
Esther:
So right now I’m still doing one-to-one sessions with clients, but also I do have a weight inclusive diabetes group for BIPOC individuals that will be starting [inaudible].
Chavonne:
Cool.
Esther:
Thriving with Diabetes. So that’s something I’m looking to get starting again. But the other thing I’m looking to start, which was supposed to be actually this week but I forgot to put out the information, was actually being able to provide supervision for providers for weight inclusive care in regards to diabetes, bariatric surgery, renal disease, but kind of like with what we’ve been talking about, thinking beyond the textbook, how can we be present with our clients? So that is the goal for what’s going on on my end. Career-wise, I think just doing this, I love doing this. Going to also try to figure out how to throw in the travel with the inclusiveness and respectful care. Maybe eventually having some liberation, body liberation travel roots, but just knowing that I still continue to travel and figuring out how to help those who want to be able to travel and live their best life too without having to worry about can they do this, or someone mocking me, judging me. So we’ll see.
Jenn:
Ooh, I love that. And where can people keep up with this, find out about these groups if they want to? Social media, website?
Esther:
Yeah, I’m on Instagram at et.the.rd and my website is esthertambenutrition.com.
Chavonne:
Thank you. That’s wonderful. We love your work. I love your Instagram. This has been wonderful. Thank you so, so, so much. Like I said, we were so excited to have you on. I was super pumped. I love when we interview people I’ve never met before. It gets me super excited because I have no idea what’s about to come. And I’m like, “Yes, let’s just get into it.” It’s been amazing. Thank you.
Esther:
Thank you. It was a really great conversation. I love how we went from embodiment to travel and all the things we didn’t realize would come in and it’s like, travel, why not?
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Jenn:
Yeah.
Chavonne:
It was wonderful. It makes me want to go, “Let me go get embodied somewhere.”
Jenn:
Yes.
Esther:
Book a trip. When in doubt, book a trip.
Chavonne:
I love that. I love that. When in doubt, book a trip. Yeah, absolutely.
Jenn:
Okay, that hit me in the heart. Okay.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Jenn:
I love it so much.
Chavonne:
[inaudible] I think down 25. I’m like, I’m going to go end up in [inaudible] or something like that. That sounds amazing. Yeah, yeah.
Jenn:
Yeah. Oh my gosh, I love it so much. And so again, thank you for being here with us and while you’re traveling and sorry to interrupt your beach time and we’re so glad to just be connected with you, and I love this conversation. I mean, this is why we do this. We just love having conversations about this topic and the flow and your space holding was so present here today. Just thank you for that. Thank you for being you. I’m so glad you’re here in this world doing this work. Truly.
Chavonne:
Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely.
Esther:
Thank you, I appreciate this. I just, yeah, I really do enjoy [inaudible]. I was like, “Oh, I got through a podcast without, I don’t think I’m sweating through my black shirt. I did good. It was very comfortable.” Yeah, so that’s embodiment right there too.
Jenn:
It is.
Chavonne:
There you go. Well, we sweat through most interviews, so it would’ve been okay.
Jenn:
Yeah. Very sweaty over here.
Chavonne:
Always.
Jenn:
From excitement and passion and just present with what we’re talking about.
Chavonne:
Yes, yes.
Jenn:
So thank you again so much, and can’t wait to see about all these offerings that you mentioned and we’ll make sure they’re in the show notes for this episode and just thank you again.
Esther:
Thank you so much.
Chavonne:
Thank you. This has been awesome. Thank you.
Esther:
Thank you. Take care.
Chavonne:
Take care.
Esther:
Bye.
Jenn: Thank you for listening to Season 3 of the Embodiment for the Rest of Us podcast. Episodes will be published every two weeks-ish (let’s be real!) wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also find the podcast at our website, EmbodimentForTheRestOfUs.com.
Chavonne: And follow us on social media, on both Twitter @EmbodimentUs and on Instagram @EmbodimentForTheRestOfUs. We look forward to being with you again next time in this evolving conversation.