Embodiment for the Rest of Us – Season 3, Episode 4: Aaron Flores
Thursday, July 6, 2023
Chavonne (she/her) and Jenn (she/her) interviewed Aaron Flores (he/him) about his embodiment journey.
Aaron Flores is a registered dietitian nutritionist and Certified Body Trust® provider. With over 10 years of experience, Aaron has worked with eating disorders in a variety of settings over his career, including the VA Healthcare System and Center for Discovery. He currently has a private practice in Calabasas, CA. Aaron uses Intuitive Eating, Health at Every Size®, and Body Trust® as the framework to help individuals develop a more compassionate, non-judgemental approach to food and their body. His work has been featured on the 10% Happier Podcast, in the New York Times, Huffington Post and Buzzfeed. Aaron is also a frequent speaker, presenting at national and international eating disorder conferences. In addition to his individual work with clients, he is also a podcaster. His two shows are Men Unscripted and, Dietitians Unplugged.
Content Warning: discussion of privilege, discussion of diet culture, discussion of fatphobia, discussion of eating disorders, discussion of healthism, discussion of racism, discussion of mental health, mention of child abuse, mention of suicide
Trigger Warnings: None for this episode
A few highlights:
5:40: Aaron shares his understanding of embodiment and his own embodiment journey
18:35: Aaron discusses how the pandemic affected his embodiment practices
35:12: Aaron shares his understanding of “the rest of us” and how he is a part of that, as well as his privileges
1:21:00: Aaron discusses how podcasting has enhanced his connection to embodiment
1:30:41: Aaron shares how advocating for fat providers and fat men has changed his own embodiment
1:42:09 Aaron shares where to be found and what’s next for him
Links from this episode:
Music: “Bees and Bumblebees (Abeilles et Bourdons), Op. 562” by Eugène Dédé through the Creative Commons License
Please follow us on social media:
Twitter: @embodimentus
Instagram: @embodimentfortherestofus
Captions
EFTROU Season 3 Episode 4 is 1 hour, 44 minutes, and 10 seconds long. (1:44:10)
Chavonne: Hello there! I’m Chavonne McClay (she/her).
Jenn: And I’m Jenn Jackson (she/her).
Chavonne: This is Season 3 of Embodiment for the Rest of Us. A podcast series exploring topics and intersections that exist in fat, queer, and disability liberation!
Jenn: In this show, we interview those with lived experience and professionals alike to learn how they are affecting radical change and how we can all make this world a safer and more welcoming place for all humans who are historically and currently marginalized and should be centered, listened to, and supported.
Chavonne: Captions and content warnings are provided in the show notes for each episode, including specific time stamps, so that you can skip triggering content any time that feels supportive to you! This podcast is a representation of our co-host and guest experiences and may not be reflective of yours. These conversations are not medical advice, and are not a substitute for mental health or nutrition support.
Jenn: In addition, the conversations held here are not exhaustive in their scope or depth. These topics, these perspectives are not complete and are always in process. These are just highlights! Just like posts on social media, individual articles, or any other podcast, this is just a snapshot of the full picture.
Chavonne: We are always interested in any feedback on this process if something needs to be addressed. You can email us at Listener@EmbodimentForTheRestOfUs.com.
[1:25]
(J): Welcome to the 4th episode of season 3 of the Embodiment for the Rest of Us podcast. In today’s episode, we have our hilarious, warm, supportive, and nerdy friend (like us haha!), Aaron Flores, about his embodiment journey and supporting and holding space for men with eating disorders!
(C): Aaron Flores is a registered dietitian nutritionist and Certified Body Trust® provider. With over 10 years of experience, Aaron has worked with eating disorders in a variety of settings over his career, including the VA Healthcare System and Center for Discovery. He currently has a private practice in Calabasas, CA. Aaron uses Intuitive Eating, Health at Every Size®, and Body Trust® as the framework to help individuals develop a more compassionate, non-judgemental approach to food and their body.
(J): His work has been featured on the 10% Happier Podcast, in the New York Times, Huffington Post and Buzzfeed. Aaron is also a frequent speaker, presenting at national and international eating disorder conferences. In addition to his individual work with clients, he is also a podcaster. His two shows are Men Unscripted and, Dietitians Unplugged.
(C): Thank you so much for being here, listening, and holding space with us dear listeners! We can’t wait for you to hear each and every interview this season. And we can’t wait to listen and be in this conversation again ourselves!
[3:02]
Jenn:
Okay, I was just making excited movements because we’re continuing our interviews with our third season today, and we’re beyond thrilled to have Aaron Flores, he/him, my supervisor joining us from Southern California, someone who’s wonderfully nerdy, compassionate, and expansive perspectives on body image and eating disorders are something everyone should be listening to. He has his own podcast, y’all. Well, more than one, one currently. There’s so much nuance to sit with, in, around, and we can’t wait to dive into this with you all listening. So let’s get started. How you doing today, Aaron?
Aaron:
I’m great. I’m really excited to be here. And I think that’s the best bio I’ve heard. I think I just need to snippet that and get the transcript ’cause bios are so wonky. They’re just like, oh my goodness, I got to write all this schmucky stuff? So I love what you did. So I’m going to copy that from the transcript and use that.
Jenn:
You have my permission.
Aaron:
Yeah, thank you.
Chavonne:
Absolutely.
Jenn:
If you want it as an audio, I will make that happen.
Aaron:
Yeah.
Jenn:
I mean, I’ll do it anytime, even the close-up mic, weird deepening of voice thing.
Aaron:
Listen, if you have a mic, you might as well use it.
Chavonne:
You might as well.
Jenn:
I like to bring it closer so everyone can hear me.
Aaron:
I hear you. Yeah.
Jenn:
And you know what I noticed? We all have the same microphone and the same little stand.
Chavonne:
We do.
Jenn:
You don’t really see mine, but mine’s the same.
Aaron:
Yeah, no.
Chavonne:
I can’t get mine in there, but it’s the same. Oh, shoot. I hit my computer. Okay, over here.
Aaron:
For podcasters, it’s such a flex, right?
Chavonne:
It really is.
Aaron:
Oh yeah. Yeah, no, totally. I hear you.
Chavonne:
I felt like a real podcaster once I got one-
Aaron:
Exactly.
Chavonne:
… I’m like, I’ve arrived. I’m here.
Aaron:
Yep, I’m here. Exactly.
Jenn:
We even had a whole conversation about which ones we were going to get so that they would be the same.
Chavonne:
We did, yeah.
Jenn:
We’ve come a long way audio-wise. I just want to name that for us. It’s been quite a journey.
Aaron:
Yeah, yeah. I hear you.
Jenn:
It’s hard. Okay, I love that. So how are we are playing with our microphones and we’re having a good time, and I gave you the best bio ever. What else?
Aaron:
Yeah, I mean, look, I love doing these kind of things, so I love being able to connect with folks and just talk about some of these things that don’t get as much attention outside in my normal life. So it’s a fun, nerdy way to dive into this stuff. So I’m just happy to be here.
Chavonne:
Awesome.
Jenn:
Emphasis on nerdy. This is my special interest, that’s why we have a podcast.
Aaron:
Yeah.
Jenn:
I’m like, let’s talk about it. I love it.
Chavonne:
Awesome.
Jenn:
Thank you for being here.
Aaron:
Yeah, of course.
[5:40]
Chavonne:
Thank you so much. As we start this conversation about being present too, and in our bodies, I’d love to start with asking a centering question about the themes of our podcast and how they occur to you. Can you share with us what embodiment means to you and what has your embodiment journey been like if you would like to share?
Aaron:
Yeah, it’s a really interesting word, and I think for me, embodied means being able to drop down out of my head and be present in my body and feel all of the things that sort of show up below the neck. And I think there’s a lot of really different embodied moments that we can all have. And I don’t think it has to be sometimes profound, I think it could be just laughing really hard with someone or experiencing something that is really meaningful, like watching a sunset or holding hands with a partner or an embrace. I think there are little things, or listening to music. I think sometimes the word embodiment becomes overwhelming and too much. It’s like, “Oh, I need to work really hard to be embodied,” and yes, in a lot of ways we do, but there’s also some benefit to trying to simplify it a little bit.
So that’s what embodiment means to me. I think my own journey with it is, I would say, still going. I think if you asked me that question when I started to become a dietician, that’s like 15 years ago now, which is odd to say out loud. I don’t know what… I think that question would’ve really bonked my brain to the point of, well, I don’t know, but that would probably be my answer. And because, well, I’m just going to talk about magnesium and folate and grams of protein, why do I need to be embodied? I don’t need to do that. And I think with my own relationship with my body, I spent years trying to not be embodied through restriction and through dieting. And so I think there were a lot of things that kept me out of that experience.
And so now my own journey with it is that it’s still pretty rough. I think one of the things that is helpful in doing this work and is whether we’re talking to clinicians or we’re talking to colleagues or we’re talking to clients, patients or friends, is the reality is just because we might be talking about this work and doing it for a living doesn’t mean we have it all figured out. And so embodiment is hard, and it is especially hard in a world that seems to be ripping itself apart at the seams where safety is tenuous, where we worry about… There’s a lot to worry about in our daily lives. And so it’s really understandable why it could be challenging for anyone, even someone who’s connected and doing a lot of this work to be embodied. So I think it goes, it ebbs and flows depending on what life is like.
Jenn:
How does your journey feel today? If you were to name a phrase or a sentence or anything about how you feel about it today? Something in what you just said made me really curious about today.
Aaron:
Yeah, I think it’s hard to think about a word. I think mean I’m striving for C level work and trying to just get a C in this and not get an A. So I think that’s something I talk a lot about with my clients and I think I have to do that all a lot myself.
Jenn:
Yeah, you talk about it with your supervisees too, ’cause you’ve talked about that with me a lot. Thank you for that spontaneous question. I relate hardcore to what you’re talking about, about being in a profession that’s actually talking about food and body relationship all the time in a training that does not prepare us for holding that conversation, for having that conversation with ourselves or for having the choice about embodiment throughout the work. So we might be turned all the way on at the beginning and overwhelmed, and then we turn all the way off and it’s really hard to have some sort of dimmer switch option where there’s just anything in between those. I was actually just picturing this dimmer switch in between, I had to learn that after, I’m sure your… I’ve been a dietician for 10 years, which is weird to say also. But only really in my body in this work for four or five years.
The first half just completely outside of my body. So in my head, so in what I would’ve called then “the experience” for anyone listening, I’m putting little quote marks by my head. ‘Cause I was like, oh, I’m in the experience. But I was not in the experience in so many ways that I was just connecting to that part of what you were just saying. And I was thinking about your field as well, Chavonne, that people who hold space for other people’s emotions, processing, integrating things into our body. It’s very much what both of these fields are, anything in the eating disorder field is, and that there is so much insight that I did not have without that. I couldn’t even connect on that level with people. So my work was rather surface level at the beginning. I didn’t know why it wasn’t working for me.
But you were connect… At the time, but you were connecting me with how surface level it used to be. It was the magnesium of it all. I can still have conversations. I just had a conversation yesterday about calcium and magnesium and iron with my own family member. I love nerding out about this stuff. And sometimes that’s not even at all what the conversation needs, but I would go to the calcium magnesium iron place anyway ’cause that’s what I had. But not being embodied, not crying with someone. Or even if I can’t cry, not just letting those emotions sit, I was fixing. It’s such a field of fixing.
Aaron:
Totally.
Jenn:
We can’t do them both at the same time. Begrudgingly, I will admit that I would love to fix and embody at the same time. You can’t do it. They totally block each other, but really well done to the embodiment part that it blocks the fixing, it just comes up against that embodiment wall. So just kind of thinking and processing. You’re such a great narrator that I was like, I’m just kind of walking along in that story going, “Oh yeah.”
Chavonne:
Makes me think of the protectiveness of disembodiment. Sometimes I think there’s a difference between it being a protective thing, especially in a traumatic experience or a place that doesn’t feel safe to feel truly embodied. But it can also, on the other hand, be this disembodiment by choice. I don’t want to get any deeper, I don’t want to feel it. I’ve said this myself, I’m going to feel that tomorrow. I’m going to feel that next week. I don’t have time for it right now, creating this barrier so that you don’t feel within yourself for lack of a better term.
Aaron:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I love that. Especially because I think, again, going back to what like if we’re thinking about the word again, I think that’s embodied to know, no, I can’t do this right now. I’m choosing not to. I will do it later, but I don’t have the chops for it right now. So I’m going to put it over here. I think that’s embodied, right? That’s knowing ourselves, that’s like saying, “Here’s what is realistic for me,” not a should, not a, this is what society expects me to do and how to do it.
Chavonne:
Yeah. I didn’t even think of it that way. That’s really helpful. Thank you. But something you said, Jenn, that sat with me, is that the really surface level that was definitely my work at the beginning of this. I’ve been a social worker for, oh my Lord, 13, yeah, 13 years. Good lord, 13 years now. And my beginning work, I would say most of my work was very surface level because it didn’t feel comfortable in this society to be embodied with my clients. Instead, I’m sitting there, “How does this part of my body look? How am I presenting myself to these people?” Whatever. So I definitely, that sits really hard with me too.
Jenn:
Yeah. The disembodiment, the distraction of what we’re busy doing was also thinking of… Shoot, now I lost it. I knew this was going to happen. I actually had a dream about this last night. So hold on. Let me come back from my panicking about forgetting something. Oh, I wrote it down. Something that really stuck to me in what you were both were talking about is the choice. Something I’ve been playing with for myself is my own compartmentalization that comes from so many times to myself saying, “Not now, not us. Let’s deal with the person who’s our client. Let’s do it later.” But never leaving space for myself for any later, anything.
So I’ve been doing catch up for seven straight years now. I’m just trying to… I felt lost in my career. I felt lost in my person. I felt lost in the city I was in. I felt lost in my relationship. I felt lost, lost, lost. And it was like, “Who am I? Where am I? What am I doing? How did I get here?” I was in my dream place, New York with my dream person, my partner still but I didn’t know… It didn’t resonate like I thought it should resonate and that’s ’cause nothing was echoing in here, if that makes sense. It was just hitting me but this was a solid mass of stuff that I had repressed and compartmentalized for later. Ooh, okay. I’m glad I’m saying this in a place that’s being recorded, [inaudible] want to share that with my therapist. Yeah.
Chavonne:
Please refer to episode three.
Jenn:
I like the insight I’m giving myself here. I’m not afraid to say I like what I just said, so that’s going to happen again. I was just like, I don’t know, something in what you were saying. I wanted to tell you that it was echoing in me, and it’s a new experience that I’m having, especially in the last three years, like the pandemic. I’ve really been having this experience where I can feel things echo within me. And I’ve honestly never had that experience that I can recall before this time. And I think it’s part of my own embodiment journey. But I was just really resonating with the lack of echoing that you were describing. We were all talking about surface level stuff, fragile stuff, but we’re not really letting ourselves be the fragile ones, that sort of thing. It’s just like we were hardening.
So it’s a major journey of mine to decompartmentalize. It’s really hard to do it intentionally in the other direction. It’s so much harder than to do it intentionally in the direction it got that way. And I was doing it intentionally for sure, but it’s much harder to unwind this very, very tight coil that I’ve created. So I was just I don’t know, picturing all sorts of things like an echoing space, not a tightly coiled thing, but a loose little slinky kind of thing. I was just enjoying playing with some metaphors in my head the way that you both were describing it. That makes me… I love doing this podcast. I feel interested newly and discovering and playing around with my own embodiment every time someone tells me what embodiment is to them, because it just echoes differently. So thanks for the echoes.
Chavonne:
Absolutely.
Aaron:
Yeah. You’re welcome.
Chavonne:
Completely agree.
Aaron:
You’re welcome. You’re welcome.
Jenn:
It was awesome.
Aaron:
You’re welcome. Sorry, I couldn’t help it.
[18:35]
Jenn:
Okay. That took my brain a second. Well done. I love it. Okay, so I just mentioned the pandemic, so I’ll move on to the next one. As a human being, how has this ongoing pandemic affected your embodiment practices in ways that challenge your process? Has there been anything that feels like it connects you further? What lights you up about your work? Nerdy Star Wars references for anyone. He has his video at the beginning of his Zoom rooms now that is a Star Wars clip. I got caught in there and was a little late to our last supervision because I was just watching it. So what lights you up about your work and when are you most embodied?
Aaron:
Yeah. Well, first off, I think the pandemic shifted a lot. I mean, how could it not? And I think it did… I mean, it was challenging, not because I was working from home and all that stuff, but it was hard. People were struggling. People are still struggling, and it was a lot to hold. It is a lot to hold. So I think the work intensified in a really significant way. And I think it also just because my own experience intensified my own anxiety, my own fear, the unknown of all of this. And I think that was really, and probably in some ways still is, really challenging. And one of the benefits of that is I think it forces, at least for me, it forced me to think about what am I doing to turn it off when I’m done with work? What am I doing to disconnect?
‘Cause I can’t just be in it all the time. And so it made me think about those things. It definitely made me think about what things are important and not, where is there not just wasted time, but wasted energy in relationships that aren’t really meaningful in some way. And I think for the folks that… There’s some folks that I became closer to as a result, which has been a benefit. And I mean, this might sound callous, but maybe there’s a benefit to the people that I wasn’t that close with that was moved on-
Chavonne:
Absolutely. It doesn’t sound callous.
Aaron:
…in some ways.
Chavonne:
It sounds honest.
Aaron:
Yeah. So yeah, I mean, think it was really hard and in a lot of ways, I think the pandemic taught me how truly anxious I am all the time. I don’t think I would’ve… I think it was the pandemic and TikTok, I guess, combined ’cause all the lessons I learned now are on TikTok.
Jenn:
Same.
Aaron:
But I think it taught me more about my own anxiety and how it manifests and things like that. And so I think, yeah, I think it definitely had a profound effect and with all that, not but, but with all of that, I don’t want to do anything else. This is my work. I love this work. I choose it and I choose it every day. And it’s like, it’s great. It’s hard and it’s full of challenging moments, but it’s also, I love it. I just really… There’s not a day where I wake up and I’m like, “I don’t want to go to work today.” I like coming to work and my previous career I did, I had that experience. I did lament every, “Oh, I got to go back tomorrow or I got to go back today,” type things. Or just being there and being like, “What am I doing here? What is this?”
So I think as hard as it is, I like this work. I really do enjoy what I do, and it brings meaning to me, and it helps me feel like I’m doing something positive in the world, even if it’s just one person at a time. And I think within that, there is one of the things I like about this work is that I can be… Well, my inner critic will probably say I’m not terribly creative. I think I probably am just not in a typical way, but it allows me to be creative. It allows me to think about how I love metaphors or it allows me to think about metaphors and how would I relate this that we’re talking about to Star Wars or the other thing is the West Wing. What’s the metaphor in the West Wing that lands with this? Or just hearing someone talk about something that lights them up and finding metaphor in that, in connection.
So it allows me to use parts of my brain that I might not normally use on a normal setting in addition to just being empathetic and holding space. And outside of that, I appreciate that the work that I have allows me to make my family a priority. And because they are first, this is second for sure. If there is a conflict in some way that I need to be to do something for my kids or my partner, I will do that. I will drop work first to go do that. I won’t say, “Oh.” If I’m planning on going to a conference or planning on doing something outside the hours of work, I’ll be like, “Okay, how’s it going to… What am I going to miss with the family?” ‘Cause I don’t want to do that if I don’t have to. And so I think that’s one of the things that also really lights me up or allows me to come back to do this work because they’re there with me through all of this.
Chavonne:
Wow.
Jenn:
Yeah.
Chavonne:
Before I comment on what I wanted to say, I love Star Wars. You can say all the Star Wars things. I have a Star Wars… My second baby was born during the pandemic on Star Wars Day, and I had a scheduled birth so I could be… So I was like, “Please let it be May the fourth.”
Aaron:
Wow, that’s awesome.
Chavonne:
And my doc was like, “Yes.” I was like, “Thank you so much.” So I love it. But what was coming up as I was listening to you at the beginning, really using what’s important, what’s not, your relationships, how work’s going to work, the word that just kept coming up was boundaries. The pandemic helped cement some… Not that boundaries are cement, they can be, sometimes that’s a helpful thing. But it helps solidify, I guess, boundaries for you. So that definitely sounds like a benefit. Yeah.
Aaron:
Yeah. Yeah. And I think I probably wouldn’t have even thought about that word very much, probably. I think in some ways I would have but as far as applying it to myself, yeah, I think that was something that definitely lands for sure.
Jenn:
I’ve been talking a lot about boundaries this week. So that pause and sound was my brain fast forwarding and then rewinding and then slowing down. Boundaries and embodiment are things that are starting to show up for me as essential for each other. Me as the very surface level person had no boundaries about myself. Work, no space, I was going to everywhere that my clients were, really, really, really long days, telling myself, “I’m exploring New York all day,” but exhausted deeply. And that in the pandemic, I was like, “Ooh, it’s virtual. No one has to commute, including me. So now I can just stack them all up,” and stacked my days and was like, “Oh wait, but I’m doing eating disorder work, so now I have an entire day with no space.” So I had to pull back from that too. So just boundaries as a form of ebb and flow, that they’re flexible, that they’re solidified, but sometimes they’re jello-like, like you could still-
Chavonne:
[inaudible].
Jenn:
Or they’re, or they’re cement-like where I’m like, “Actually this I need for me always,” just knowing those sorts of things. There was also something that you were talking about that was occurring to me as a no to other things in a boundary way is a yes to ourselves, which I have heard about and I have used my mouth to talk about to other people a lot. But taking that on for myself is like I feel like it’s current work for me. I feel like I’m in really infant stages about that because I like to say yes. I mean, I like it so much. It’s one of the best feelings you can ever feel. But what happens next may not be the best feeling you ever feel if it really wasn’t a true yes. It’s just I wanted to say yes in the moment without considering any consequences like my niece would say. My oldest niece right now says consequence. I actually told Chavonne beforehand I was going to find a way to include it, and I forgot.
Aaron:
You did.
Jenn:
But then I remembered. It would be worth right now.
Chavonne:
Consequence, I love that.
Aaron:
For a long time, my kids could… The remote right for the TV was called “nemote.”
Chavonne:
Oh. I love it.
Aaron:
So, like that, I still say like, “Can you pass-”
Chavonne:
Oh.
Aaron:
So-
Chavonne:
I love it.
Aaron:
I still say, “Can you pass the nemote over?” And, yeah.
Chavonne:
Oh, I love… My kids were not great at saying L. So there’s a lot of W’s in our house. “I hurt my weg,” and “It’s a wiward.” Instead of a lizard. It’s just… I love it. I love it so much.
Jenn:
My youngest nibbling is on, “pwease” right now.
Chavonne:
Okay.
Jenn:
Michelle says, “Oh, thank you,” for anything she wants to be hers as soon as she sees it.
Aaron:
Yeah.
Jenn:
“Oh, thank you.” I’m like, “Well, this is for Auntie Jenn.” “Oh, thank you so much, Auntie Jenn, thank you.” Or, “Okay.” I’m just thinking about how embodied kids are, or they’re like, “Okay.”
Chavonne:
They’re so embodied.
Jenn:
No one has said anything yet. And you’re like, “Uh-oh, what did we just agree to in real time?” They agreed for us, but what just happened? I got to go figure out what’s going on right now. Yeah. Okay. So consequences. I don’t even remember where I heard this, if this is a saying. I feel like my friend Sonny, shout out to Sonny Patel. I feel like he’s the one who told me this, but I can’t remember who told me this. The universe only has three answers. Yes, yes, but not now, and yes, but not this. And I used to take that as my reason. I actually already had my own thing about saying yes to everything before that, but that became my little bit of cement accidentally of my feet in a place I didn’t mean to be. And I would just say yes to everything.
Or I’m like, “I don’t know, ask me in two weeks.” Making it so people even kept coming back, instead of just being like, “No, thank you so much.” No. I can be talked into a yes, in other words. Because of rhetoric like this that I take on from a toxic society that says, “Go ahead, Jenn, do it all,” that kind of space. So I was really hearing you in… Even the way you were talking about it, started to get almost like sing-songy and really paced in a really cool way when you were talking about your family. That when you have an anchor like that, everything can ebb and flow with our boundaries when we can just keep returning to some kind of anchor. And I was like, yeah, that’s what that phrase about the universe is missing. Zero of those are anchored. They’re all yeses.
They’re all yeses. They’re all a way to keep saying yes. And I like that movie Yes Man. I want to say yes to life. There’s cool things about that. And also sometimes I really need to say no. Sometimes I just need to lay in my bed all day. Sometimes I need to tell my clients “I can’t today.” Sometimes I really need to do these things. And I am so hesitant, resistant. We can talk about all other sorts of complex things and reasonings in our current society and my family’s framework, everything. That ebb and flow just felt free to me. There’s an anchor, but it’s free. I just thought that was really cool. I wanted to reflect that back to you, because that’s playing my heartstrings stuff over here.
Aaron:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, no, I appreciate that a lot. And I think when you get used to saying no, it also is a great word.
Jenn:
Dang, Aaron, always calling me out.
Aaron:
Yeah, no, it’s calling-
Jenn:
Supervision all the time.
Aaron:
Yeah, it’s not calling… Yeah, exactly.
Jenn:
You’re just talking. I’m just taking it on. You’re just talking-
Aaron:
There’s this great little video clip of Jerry Seinfeld at a red carpet, and he’s walking through and it’s sort of candid right there. He’s not taking pictures, but he is sort of making his way through, and someone comes up to him and is like, “Oh my God, Jerry Seinfeld.” And someone, who else is walking the red carpet, it’s Kesha actually, and comes up and says, can I get a hug? And he is like, “No.” And she’s like, okay, and moves on. But he’s like, “No.” And then whoever is off camera is like, “Do you know who that was?” He goes, “No.” He goes, “Oh, that was Kesha.” He’s like, “Okay.”
Chavonne:
Yeah. I don’t want to hug.
Aaron:
I’m not going to hug her.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Jenn:
Yeah.
Aaron:
And I just sort of love that moment because she is so taken aback, but he’s like, no, I don’t want to hug you. I know it’s weird that maybe I’m saying no to that, but I don’t want to.
Jenn:
Yeah.
Aaron:
People just aren’t used to hearing it. But if you get used to saying it, I mean, it’s pretty awesome.
Chavonne:
Yeah. That makes me think of kids too. So again, my Star Wars baby, we say his first and most frequent word was no, because it is, I admire… I tell him all the time, “Okay, thank you for telling me. No, I respect that.” And he’s like, “Please, just stop.” But I love that embodiment of just saying like, no, I don’t want to, I’m not doing that. It’s really powerful. And you’re absolutely right. The more you say no, the more comfortable it gets. For sure.
Aaron:
Yeah.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Jenn:
Wow. And kids are so embodied. So my oldest nibbling says no, and then takes whatever she’s doing and goes into her room and slams the door. She means it, the door’s closed, don’t talk to her. And the younger one says, no way, Jose, but if you don’t listen, then you get a no, I hate. And then it’s my instinct and even what I say out loud is, hate’s a really strong word, but they’re just trying to get me to get their no, and I didn’t get it the first time. So they’re just doubling down on their no, which is an important boundary setting thing. So it’s like, I’m just sort of reflecting on that and going, there’s so much wisdom in the word no that I have no in-touchness about… That’s what I’m just realizing in this moment. Makes me feel a little like, ooh, I got… I don’t know.
Aaron:
Yeah.
Chavonne:
Right. [inaudible].
Jenn:
I’m really immediately sweating. I think it’s such an important thing, and also I don’t gotten to know it at all. Wow.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Jenn:
Wow. So thank you.
Aaron:
Yeah.
Jenn:
I’m calling myself in. You didn’t call me in.
Aaron:
There you go.
Jenn:
I’m calling myself in, but I love taking things on and humbling myself in a moment and being like, that was for me. That one was for me. So, thanks.
Aaron:
Yeah.
Chavonne:
Absolutely.
Jenn:
Yeah.
[35:12]
Chavonne:
For the second part of our podcast title, what does The Rest of Us mean to you? How do you identify within The Rest of Us? We’d also love for you to share your pronouns and name your privileged identities in this context as well.
Aaron:
Yeah, I appreciate the question. And full disclosure, right before we started recording, I needed some clarification on it. And that’s because I show up with a lot of privileges. I’m white, I’m straight, I’m cisgender, Jewish. I live in a larger body. I identify as fat, but I’ve navigated the world with a fair amount of privilege. And so even thinking about that terminology is… I think there’s some humbleness to really lean into that is in so many ways of my life that doesn’t show up very often. And by the way, pronouns I use are he, him and his, yet, if I’m in an eating disorder setting, those privileges don’t show up in the same way.
And even as a dietician, they do not show up in the same way. When I did my undergrad at Cal State Northridge to become a dietician, there was never anyone in the men’s bathroom. And you go to the national conference, you go to [inaudible], and these are huge conference centers. They turn most of the bathrooms into female bathrooms, female body bathrooms, because in our profession, there are so many female identified folks. So in some ways that question the rest of us is, I don’t see myself in many other providers.
I just don’t. So I think it does two things for me. One, is it gives me just a small insight about what it means to be othered. The sub-part of that is I also really understand how that is a temporary thing when I move out of that space. That leaves in a lot of ways. So again, sort of see the privilege in being able to navigate in and out of that on a regular basis. And the other thing it does for me is makes me really curious about why am I not represented in this community? What things are showing up in society as a whole where there aren’t other fat dieticians? There are just not as many.
Why are there no fat male dieticians? Why are there no fat male-identified dieticians who are not putting someone on a diet? And so sometimes, especially in the profession, it can feel a little lonely. And that’s not to say that the folks that I really connect with see… They see me. So I definitely feel seen with my peeps, but in a greater hole… Yeah, it feels just a little weird sometimes to navigate the eating disorder world and the dietician world, especially being fat.
Jenn:
It’s definitely a rather undiscovered space in eating disorder work as well with clients who are male identifying and fat with eating disorders, They would sit in the quote unquote atypical space, which is very typical. They’re part of the typical journey. But the male part is not part of the typical description model expression, story research. I mean, we could go on and on, but it’s not included. I appreciate your full disclosure moment. And I also was just sitting and appreciating how patriarchal structures, siloed professions where everyone looks and acts similarly, that the otherness of that affects even the most privileged people who are outside that context might have a lot of privilege, but inside of that context may not have access, may not have access for their clients, may not be heard in the same ways. And it also makes me curious, and I’m going to ask this really tenderly and softly because I don’t know, but I want to know your perspective. Have you heard this phrase, guytitian?
Aaron:
Mm-hmm.
Jenn:
How do you feel about that? I always wondered, I always wondered, what do the people who would identify as that if they chose, how did they feel about that? Yeah, I’ve always wondered ’cause I’m like, yay, finally. I love having another perspective, but then I also have a pause and I’m like, okay, but how does that feel to have… Even the way you’re referred to as a dietician being called out as other?
Aaron:
Yeah. The first time I heard it… And I don’t know if he came up with it or not, but I heard it from David Grotto, who I followed on [inaudible].
Jenn:
He’s Canadian?
Aaron:
No. I don’t think-
Jenn:
Oh.
Aaron:
I think he’s out of Chicago. And this is again, when I was really active on Twitter, and he was like a voice-
Jenn:
I followed you. That’s how I know who Dave Grotto is.
Aaron:
So that’s where I sort of found him and I heard him or read his tweets and he would put that in there and I’d be like, oh yeah, I’m a guytitian. And so I love the sort of Etsy cuteness of it. You would put it on your badge at the conference, right? I mean, I think it’s just cute. Right?
Jenn:
Okay.
Aaron:
It doesn’t sort of bring up anything really around that. At least for me, I think it’s just a… Sort of cute way to separate or notice the separation. I think now the thing I get curious about is just… Again, and even how we use the word male and female and guys and girls, how much of those words feel so… One of my friends [inaudible] me, feel boxed in. And so I think that’s how I would think about that word now more than othering it feels like. Is that excluding folks in some way and just how we use that word guy. So yeah, that would be where I would be curious.
Jenn:
Of course you are. Thank you for that. I love that Colin too. I hadn’t even considered that. Of course.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Jenn:
Of course.
Chavonne:
I’d never even heard that term before. Interesting.
Jenn:
That’s my own privilege. I’m also cisgendered and I’m heterosexual and a heteronormative society, so yeah.
Aaron:
The dietician world on Twitter, at least 20 years ago… 10 years ago, Chavonne was pretty interesting. So maybe it’s better. You didn’t hear about it. There was like…
Chavonne:
Yeah. Might have been okay.
Aaron:
I guess anything on Twitter, there’s drama.
Jenn:
It was wild.
Aaron:
Yeah, it is.
Jenn:
Yeah, but it’s all we had at the time, so it’s the only way that I could connect as a young dietician with other people and hear what anyone was saying. It’s the only thing outside of research articles and conferences that I had at the time, and whoever my local people were like, but that was it. Damn, I love that. I hadn’t thought about that. Of course, I’m naming a term with a gender just right in there and just totally lost me. Yeah, thanks for that. I want to get curious about that too.
Aaron:
Yeah.
Chavonne:
It’s interesting to hear these marginalized identities, how they can ebb and flow as well as privileged identities can ebb and flow. We talk about that a lot on this podcast.
Aaron:
Yeah. Yeah. And again, it was just something that I had never… Again, never really thought about in a lot of ways until I started to do this work. So it was again, sort of why I’m so thankful of doing this, right? It has taught me so much.
Chavonne:
Absolutely.
Aaron:
Right? It has changed my personal life and my professional life. So yeah, it’s one of those lessons I’m supremely grateful for.
Chavonne:
Absolutely.
Jenn:
It makes me wonder what else feels worth getting curious about, if that makes sense. And I don’t mean what’s your next project to study in this area or something like that, but more like, holding space for people who are less privileged than you is a space I imagine you hold a lot with what you’ve shared with us.
Aaron:
Mm-hmm.
Jenn:
And I’m curious what feels like tender and important in space holding for people who might identify with the rest of us more than you? Does that question make sense?
Aaron:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think there’s a couple things. One is that the part of the evolution, at least for me in my career, and I think this probably comes with 15 years of doing this, is I get to be really thoughtful about how I do it. And I think about how intentional I want to be in doing things and being thoughtful about… Being really transparent that this is how I work, this is the paradigm with which I will show up. And being confident in that, but also knowing that the way I show up in the room means something and is impactful. And so it means someone that supervised me said feedback is a gift. And I think about that all the time. So I really tell my… Anyone I work with that I want feedback, even if it’s hard, I’m just going to listen and I’m not going to get defensive, but it’s going to help me be better at this job.
So if you feel safe, whether it’s write it, email it, write voice memo, tell me on the Zoom call, whatever, I want your feedback. So I think being able to say, I’m sorry or to say, yeah, I did that poorly is really valuable for me. It’s a valuable piece that I know I will have to do often. And the second part is, one of the lessons I learned very quickly in working with eating disorders was… And again, this is probably more about physical space I would hold with people now that all my work is virtual that that’s a little bit different. But knowing how just me as a male identified body shows up in the room is going… Without intention is going to bring an energy into the room. And especially for folks who’ve experienced trauma and trauma at the hands of men.
That was something that was a really hard but valuable lesson. How I carry myself in a space is going to be just as important as the words and how do I sit? Where do I sit? Do clients feel like safe in this space? Is it okay to have the door open if they feel like, that’s what they need, right? To feel safer, then yeah, we’re going to find a space where it does feel more private. Does someone else need to be in the room to help them feel more comfortable to talk about some questions? Great. Sort of being open to all of those things to help someone feel comfortable.
Comfortable, safe, I think are probably the words that are showing up, but I think it’s different than that. But feeling I can say the things I need to say in order to help my healing process. I don’t have to be guarded about this. I have been, but I feel confident in building trust with folks where they know that they can say things that maybe they have not felt safe to say. In some ways.
Chavonne:
That’s really powerful and really necessary.
Jenn:
So I don’t know if you like this word or not, but it’s very sweet. The tenderness of a male identified provider being tender and intentional feels like world changing stuff. It feels very rare. It feels very infrequent. I’m trying to think of the… You said whatever helps clients not be guarded about this. It sounds like a really lovely practice space for taking down some protections and seeing what it feels like knowing they can be safe with you. Just thinking about how rare that particular processing, that close, how rare that space might be.
Aaron:
Yeah. I think if you would’ve told me that… Again, how do I feel about the word, sweet?
Jenn:
Yeah.
Aaron:
I think if you would’ve said that when I was like 16, I would’ve hated it.
Jenn:
Yeah.
Aaron:
Right. Yeah. Because masculinity taught me not to be sweet that that’s not how you get a partner that is… Sweet puts you in the friend zone, and I don’t want to be in the friend zone. So I think at 16, that part of me would’ve been like, “Oh, that? I don’t want to be that.” But I think now is knowing that, that is a part of masculinity. Right? Is to know that there are all sides of me and there can be sides that feel assertive and there can be sides that feel tender and sweet and compassionate. So yeah, I mean, think that’s interesting how… Again, that identification or that sort of labeling could feel really challenging. And it was probably my own internalized homophobia too, that I had to work through as an adult.
Chavonne:
I think that part of being a… I don’t want to say good, but that’s the word that’s coming to mind. A good clinician, I’m sure a better word, an effective one, a compassionate one is acknowledging that privilege. We’re in this room, there’s this power differential that I don’t want, but it just exists in this room. I have privilege and my education and my skin… Whatever it is for a person. I think that’s part of being a clinician who can support someone. So it makes sense that… It makes sense that, that’s part of your process.
Aaron:
Yeah.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Aaron:
I appreciate the power dynamic of that too. Yeah.
Chavonne:
That’s a big one. That’s one of the first things I bring up.
Aaron:
Yeah.
Chavonne:
This is just how it is and in my head, it doesn’t exist, but I know it exists, so we have to… Or not exist, but it does happen. I want to talk about it with you and how to make sure you feel safe and you feel comfortable in this environment with me. Yeah.
Aaron:
Yeah. Absolutely.
Jenn:
As the one who might have the power in that power dynamic, we’re also least likely to see it. So naming it feels important so that it feels, at least in a direction pointing towards. It’s safer to bring it up here than it is anywhere else.
Aaron:
Yeah. Absolutely.
Jenn:
Again, for that kind of practice, it’s interesting. Naming has so much power, and then this thought entered my head and I was like, shit where’d that come from? Which was don’t label things is this thought that I had. I was just thinking how we’re conditioned, feminine, masculine, any other identity has a context in our culture of don’t label things. Well, it’s usually don’t label other people, but it’s very much take it on as I shouldn’t label things. I even say, I’m trying on this perspective. Let’s try on this lens. Let’s shift over here.
I literally have a set of rainbow glasses and I’m like, okay, so I put on my blue glasses and I’ll like make it all about the color just so I don’t have to name that I am labeling something. Just call myself in here and naming things has a lot of power, and the more direct and transparent that it can be, which you both were really touching on that is so important. What direction is the power dynamic in? Do you, as the clinician recognize it? Do you give an opportunity for the client to recognize it and notice where it’s pointing? Whether or not anything’s happening in that direction or not providing a service, even though we are the hired ones, always has this dimension to it of we have the power, but we’ve been hired. We can be fired.
We are there to provide a service. If we’re not providing it, we’re going to be done. You don’t have that kind of power, but in the room we have so much power because of quote unquote expertise. Right? I’m thinking of the… It’s still the [inaudible] slogan, the all capitals T-H-E nutrition expert, which I’m getting more and more bitter about this over time. I’m realizing, ’cause I’ve said it like three times, I think every season now, I’m like, “Ugh, the. Why? Why am I the expert on anything having to do with someone else’s nutrition as the expert?” First of all-
Jenn:
Expert on anything having to do with someone else’s nutrition as the expert. First of all there’s tens of thousands of us. Why is it me? Also, dietician isn’t the only field that touches on this topic. It’s really harmful field, overall I would say at this moment, still extremely harmful. So why is it V? It’s like we are the harmful ones. I’ll try on. We are the white women who are pretending we’re not doing any harm. That kind of stuff. I can really sit with that. But “the nutrition expert”. So I was just kind of sitting with, when we name things, when it’s a humble thing where it’s I’d to humble myself right now in front of you and say, I know there’s a power dynamic and I don’t want it. Let’s throw in the trash. Feels really important and valuable versus being like, “hello, I’m your expert. I’m really expensive. I’ll see you for the next 10 weeks. Not allowed to cancel, no refunds.”
That kind of stuff that comes in that, sorry, I was just trying on a little personality there. That’s not mine, so let me take it back off. It fell gross. But that kind of stuff, it’s like what about I’ve named something, let’s sit in it. And the silence that comes with that, just bringing this, I’m feeling this very much in my body. That’s why I’m trying to name it with words that even right now it’s like, yeah, that’s a little less comfortable to sit in space where no words are said. Again, calling myself in. And also, it’s so much more valuable than just filling it up with a power dynamic.
So it’s making me want to name things, label things, and see how they feel. I resist that. So it’s making me, for me and also just holding space with other people. Want to name it, see how it feels.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Jenn:
I was just going to say, I’m playing around with that right now. I’m like, how does sweet feel to you? I’m just noticing I’m doing it in real time. So I just wanted to name what I’m doing.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Jenn:
Because I’m doing it really intentionally. So that’s what I’m doing. It’s an interesting place to play. So…
Chavonne:
Well, to me that sounds like the decolonialization of the field. I mean, when you think about experts and anything, I don’t want to speak for everything, but I know in the field of therapy, it’s just founded by a bunch of old dead white dudes who thought everything was about capitalism and penises and your mom basically. So it’s.
Aaron:
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. It’s not, no?
Chavonne:
Yes, it is. Okay.
Aaron:
Oh, okay. Okay.
Jenn:
Look at her decolonizing-
Chavonne:
There you go. Yeah. Yeah.
Jenn:
…this very podcast for you right now.
Chavonne:
Yes.
Aaron:
Yeah.
Jenn:
Right now.
Chavonne:
It’s not about the cigar. No. What’s just the cigar. [crosstalk 00:54:40] But no, to me that sounds like the… I can’t even say the word again because I got excited. But the… Let’s… And that’s what frustrates me about organizations that I am myself a part of, like the National Association of Social Workers and all of these things where you have to have all these credentials and this education and these outlooks. And that is prohibitive for a lot of people financially.
And so there are only… Sometimes there’s only certain people who can come into certain fields. And I think that’s… I don’t know where I was going with this now because I got excited and worked up in my head. But I like that idea of how does this feel for you? Let’s talk about these constructs with… Maybe there’s a label, but is there a different name for it that feels more comfortable for you? Is there a different outlook on it that feels less judgmental, less pathologizing? I have no idea where I was going with that.
Aaron:
No, listen-
Chavonne:
I started just thinking about decolonization.
Aaron:
What you said just sort of resonated. And maybe it’s because by the time this airs, hopefully everything will have passed. But I was way behind on my credential units, my CE units. Right? So, as we’re recording this, I’m still busting my to finish them. I will. I have a path forward, but it was a little tenuous. But at one point I was like, do I need to be a dietician? Right? Do I really need this credential, still?And again, I know colleagues who have not continued with their credentials for some reason or another. And it does make me think about, again the power dynamics that get set up. And the oppression that shows up when that power is created. And yes, stepping out of it is one way in which we as clinicians, right, can name the power that has been traditionally there and an intention to do it differently.
Chavonne:
Yeah. It’s funny when you asked that, my head was like, yes, I do need my credentials. So I think…
Aaron:
Right.
Chavonne:
Yeah. But is that true? I don’t know. Still for a freaking long time to have a shit ton of student loan debt. But I want to keep… But I want to keep it because I worked really hard for it. And if I want to serve people-
Aaron:
Same here.
Chavonne:
…in this state, where we are such a poor state. If I want to be able to serve people who are on Medicaid, I’ve got to keep my credentials up. So I don’t… Yeah, I’m just sitting with that.
Jenn:
Interesting question. And this five year for dietician cycle. So that’s exactly how come, why I know how long I’ve been a dietician because I’m finishing my second cycle and they’re five years left. So I know that’s this year that the first one was when I had that conversation with myself.
What am I doing here? It was in this whole exploration period. And also we suck. I had just gone to my first FNCE and I was like, this sucks. We suck. There was a presentation in. It was Boston whenever that was, 2016 or something like that. I think my math is really wrong right now. But anyway, I was reflecting on this conference even if it was two years later, which sounds right. But Marci Evans brought, I can’t remember his name right now, but it’s the person who coined the term orthorexia. And it was a… I forgot what’s called at the end of the day. But anyway, everyone from the conference goes to one thing. It’s not breakout sessions. It was a plenary. There you go. It’s a plenary. So it’s for everybody. And it was the… So Marci convinced the person who coined this term to come and call out the entire field.
So it was a real… At these conferences, there’s 60,000, 65,000 dieticians at this point, and supposedly somewhere between 1/6 and 2/6 or 1/3 go to this FNCE conference every year. Because it’s a huge amount of credits. It’s like half of all of our continuing education for five years in one long week. So I get it. It’s like a $5,000 week. It’s not cheap, but it’s all in one week. Calling out bariatric dieticians. There was a group, a very large group, and I’m going to say bariatric dieticians, probably a third of this room. It’s a huge part of our profession. In the corner, talking about how wrong they were on stage really loudly. I’d come in later, something, I was near the back. So I’m trying to watch this presentation and I’m hearing commentary nonstop out of my right ear, and it’s just constant.
And in that room I was like, because I’d never had been with so many people having the same sort of anti-main presentation experience before. It’s just my privileged life. I just have never been in a room like that, I guess. And they were like, “that’s not true.” Doing lots of weight centric conversation. I’m not going to say any of it here, but they were talking about how people need to be controlled. They were talking about how people need to be oppressed and they need to get in line, in a smaller body. That’s what the whole conversation, I’m not going to say any of the details because it was hurting my insides to listen. So I’m not going to say it, and on the stage they’re like, “orthorexia has a specific definition.” We need to talk about it in specifics. Quit sending your clients into an orthorexic space, right.
That’s the whole theme of this conversation. And they’re like, “send them, send them”. It was a very weird dynamic. But right after, whenever I was logging those units on that cycle, I was like, do I want to be in this profession, that was a toxic room. I didn’t even know that many people could talk like that. Much less all of them at the same time, talking back in that way. They had to silence the room multiple times. It’s the only thing like that I’ve ever experienced. Really uncouth, not professional. We have a really good Type A mask about this particular behavior in our profession. So all the masks were off. It was very interesting. But I was like, “hmm, who’s this Marci Evans person? This is how I found my way to body image stuff, other things. Okay, so this person on stage, is a really… Has brought a totally different conversation here.
That’s really interesting to me. Everyone’s trying to fight back about this one conversation, that’s really interesting to me. But it was because of a label. It was because of Orthorexia a term at that moment. I had never heard in my life, never heard that term before. Not in my training as a dietician, nothing. I didn’t even know what that term meant, but they were literally explaining it. So that was helpful. But I was just thinking about how without a label, I never even would’ve considered leaving this profession. I really think that I would be in a really toxic weight centric space right now, maybe I would’ve found this way at some point. But that term was like, huh. It just felt like, I better go look over there. I better go see what that term is about because I don’t like what any of these people are saying.
So I need to go see what’s happening over there. So just thinking about that, how it can make us feel more connected to our profession, less connected. More connected to humanity, less connected. But that’s kind of the ebbs and flows that we’re talking about, that sometimes a label is all I have as a boundary. #.
I’m just like, oh, this is new. I finally have a boundary for this particular conversation, or thought. I want to explore this more. So I’m just appreciating, I think in real time, being in a conversation where we’re like, “yeah, let’s name stuff.” Let’s just see what’s… Just kind of what’s happening here. So it feels cool. So it made me kind of reflect on a part of my embodiment journey. I was like, orthorexia, you mean my internship? That’s what I thought. You mean my internship. That’s what we learned how to do.
Chavonne:
Oh god.
Jenn:
So yeah, I was like, oh yeah. When we got really deep into it, that’s exactly what we learned how to do. It got worse in that year for me as a human. And also everyone I worked with, right? Because that was the job. But I didn’t know I didn’t have to do like that.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Jenn:
Yeah.
Chavonne:
Aaron, what made you decide to get the hours?
Jenn:
Mmm.
Aaron:
Oh yeah, good question. I think-
Chavonne:
No judgment, just asking.
Aaron:
No, no, no, no. I think it’s a lot of what you said. I worked really hard to get here, and I think for some folks it is important for them to see, at the end of my name. That it brings some legitimacy to this. I don’t take insurance, so there’s a little bit of… But I wouldn’t be able to give superbills to folks.
Chavonne:
Great.
Aaron:
So it limits that. And I’ll be… The other part of it underlying was, this was probably in July, so last summer. And it was, part of me was like, I just don’t want to do the hours. I just don’t want to do the work. And so I think there was a part of me that’s just like, I just want to avoid doing the task as a way to give up the RD. And I think it was probably more of that than philosophical. I could have framed it as philosophical for sure. But I think there was more of just avoidance of doing the thing that I probably needed to do. So yeah, that’s why I ended up doing it. And actually I found some pretty cool ways to do some of it that is making it more interesting than not, less of a slog than I thought it would be.
Chavonne:
Gotcha. That makes sense. Complete sense.
Aaron:
Yeah.
Chavonne:
And I see you both. This is why I tell myself when I don’t want to do this bullshit, but anything in there, and I’m just infiltrating and I’m just going to fuck up on the inside because I’m going to keep this degree and I’m going to keep this license. And hopefully I’m someone who has a different voice than the people that could apologize and all that. That’s how I see you too.
Jenn:
You see us.
Chavonne:
Absolutely.
Aaron:
Well, listen.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Aaron:
This is the Star Wars moment, right? Because this is rebellions and those folks at the talk, that’s the empire. That was get in line, don’t step out of line. Here’s your role, we’re going to control you. And rebellions are lonely. Right?
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Aaron:
You need people in a rebellion. And it might just be a few of us, but that’s all you need. But yeah, I’ve realized I sort of dig rebellions, right?
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Aaron:
I sort of enjoy them. It’s the kind of music I listen to. I think it’s kind of the societal movements that I’m drawn to in a lot of ways. So yeah, I like rebellions.
Chavonne:
Yeah, totally. I love that.
Jenn:
Something in what you just said made me realize that rebellions are a privilege.
Chavonne:
I was just thinking that. That’s so interesting.
Jenn:
I don’t know, even know where-
Chavonne:
Love that though.
Jenn:
That’s mind meld. I don’t know where it even came from in there. Maybe it’s… So have you finally seen all of Andor? Because last time we talked you haven’t.
Aaron:
Oh yeah.
Jenn:
It’s November.
Aaron:
I have.
Jenn:
Okay.
Chavonne:
I haven’t even started it, but I’m-
Jenn:
Wait. So I’m not going to say anything.
Aaron:
So, we should pause the podcast and we can, do part two-
Jenn:
I’m going to say…
Aaron:
… when Chavonne has finished Andor.
Jenn:
Yeah, I will say-
Chavonne:
I do have to say, I think that, okay, this is a argument that I have in my house all the time. But if I have to pick between Star Trek and Star Wars, I’m going Star Trek. It’s style versus substance. But-
Jenn:
Okay. We have an equal sharing of that answer in my house. I’m on both sides. I can sit in both. But my mom’s Star Trek, my dad’s Star Wars.
Chavonne:
I’m Star Trek for life.
Jenn:
My sister’s always been very equals, yes. Right? And I’m like, I can see both sides because that’s just Libra energy. Spicy Capricorn.
Chavonne:
So I got really, really into Voyager and I haven’t come back.
Aaron:
Got it.
Jenn:
That’s so good. Okay-
Aaron:
So good. Okay.
Jenn:
So, I won’t give any Andor spoilers.
Chavonne:
I wouldn’t watch it. It’s fine.
Jenn:
I’ll just note that I was just checking because Aaron was like, don’t say anything. When I was like… He’s like, “don’t say a thing.” So-
Chavonne:
I’m still going to watch it. You can say it. It’s fine. It’s fine.
Jenn:
Okay, this is not a spoiler but I thought they did a really great look at how privileged rebellion is. Who gets to do it, what kind of choices they get to make and who can help them. I thought it was a really, really cool look at that. It takes an incredible amount of money. It takes an incredible amount of time. It takes an incredible amount of trying again to get it right. It takes collective moments where everything just suddenly clicks. It takes lots of stuff like that. They just did a really great job of not making that the direct message, but still naming it in dialogue quite a few times. And it was just incredible to me. Maybe it’s just… You said Star Wars and Rebellion, but I was like, yeah, it’s so privileged. To me, rebellion is an inner teenage rebellion kind of rebellion.
That’s what it’s been to me for so long because I didn’t really get to do it. It’s probably why more work for Jenn. But it’s always occurred to me as that. But I find, I don’t know if this is my divergence or what, but watching something as a visual story, not just reading it, but watching someone’s interpretation of something, I’ll just finally get something that my mind can’t get to on its own. So that’s really been sitting with me and that was sitting with me when you said that. We’re part of the profession, that’s a huge privilege. The continuing education, the licensure, everything you have to pay for and accomplish so that you can do superbills. I also don’t take insurance, but I want to. But it’s really hard to.
Chavonne:
It’s really really hard in New Mexico. I can’t even believe how hard it is.
Aaron:
So one of the CEUs I watched was about insurance. It did not convince me. It was not like, I didn’t leave that webinar being like, oh my, yeah, I’m going to do this. It was like they were totally advocating for it and you should do it, and then here all the… But oh my Lord, I am-
Chavonne:
But also here’s why it sucks.
Aaron:
Here’s why it’s so hard. Here’s the minutia of it. And I’m like ooh.
Jenn:
In my internship, a dietician came in and told us about it, but it took her six hours to explain. And at the end-
Chavonne:
Oh my god.
Jenn:
… We were like, my God, get out. I love administrative work. I actually really like tinkering. So it’s just more tinkering. But I was like, never, how are you supposed to do any work, right? It’s different now. There were no electronic health records at the time. That was a different world. But rebellion is a privilege. So of course it’s going to be a few people because most people have to keep doing what they’re doing because they don’t have choices in their lives. So I love that, the analogy and also the invitation, because that can also change with momentum. This will make me think of, and or too, when the momentum shifts, all Star Wars actually, but when the momentum shifts, everything shifts.
The rebellion can dominate an entire movie, for example. The whole thing shifts, and I like being in shifting work. I like being humbled, but I also being propelled forward out of purest excitement and terror alone. Because I’m horribly anxious, but not horribly. I’m very anxious, which feels horrible, but it’s not actually horrible. But it makes me really anxious to rebel. But I’ll do it. There’s certain things I will never do. Mandatory reporting. We can talk about lots of things, but being in the eating disorder field, I have to sit with that. I won’t do it. Things that lead towards someone being incarcerated in some way.
Chavonne:
So mandated reporting is that what you meant?
Jenn:
I don’t know what I said, but yes.
Chavonne:
Mandatory. Yeah, that’s why I was confused. Okay.
Jenn:
Oh, sorry.
Chavonne:
Yeah, yeah.
Jenn:
I don’t do it.
Chavonne:
Okay.
Jenn:
And I know that that breaks some things. So I’m okay with that. But I have the privilege to do so. The consequences of that I have looked into, I know what they are. But that takes a lot of privilege to be able to do something like that. I’m not going to make it so someone’s life is harder because of me. I’m always going to try to do something else. Maybe I should just say, it would be very thoughtful if I ever did that. But I don’t think I could ever do it. I’m just thinking about that. I know it takes a lot of privilege to be even able to have that conversation with myself, because that could be career ending stuff.
Chavonne:
Right, and I feel like anytime I’ve actually done it was to keep someone safe. So I’m just sitting with it but it’s really interesting. Yeah.
Jenn:
I totally get the purpose of it. And I also, maybe it’s because I’m playing around with the idea of autism. Maybe it’s because I’m playing around in learning about the harms of applied behavior analysis, which is what I was trained in as a dietician. So directly calling out techniques that I’ve used and how just using those on an individual basis is harmful for the rest of someone’s life. And those are smaller things. It’s a huge impact over time but it’s complex, PTSD bringing, it’s horrible. And not because I’ve ever actually been in that position. So I’m saying all this being like, I’m getting really sweaty because I’m like, I’ve never even really done it. So it’s just all a hundred percent hypothetical for me in this moment. So I want to name that too. But the state north of us, Colorado is a mandatory incarceration state for mental health, including eating disorders.
So even when I’m considering if one of my clients might be going to the state above us for services, because it’s very often required, because we don’t have enough of them. Definitely not harmful ones in New Mexico that I have to consider that I won’t even have control over them staying there. They won’t have control, I won’t have control. No member of their New Mexico team will. And so I’m not going to choose for any of my clients, but I am going to keep the choice there. This is interesting. I don’t know. I’m just hearing myself talk in real time. Feel free to call me in or out. I don’t know, I’m just talking about it.
Chavonne:
I think I said what was coming to mind for me. No, I’ve only done it because I did not have the capability of keeping someone safe, and I needed support in doing that. If there’s a kid that’s getting abused, I’m absolutely going to report.
Jenn:
Oh yeah. Okay.
Chavonne:
If there’s someone who’s feeling suicidal and cannot commit to not completing, I’m going to seek support. But I also came up in the community mental health world and maybe it’s just different. I don’t know, in dietetics versus mental health. So I’m just sitting with it too. Yeah.
Jenn:
I think that’s a privilege of my profession that I get to talk about it like that. Good point.
That’s a good point. I talked about it like-
Chavonne:
That’s something that’s coming to mind is rebellion is privileged, but revolution is not, I guess because I’m thinking of when things get down to the balls to the wall or whatever. I’m thinking of Le Miz, which is not the most unprivileged example, but I have the song running in through my head right now. If it’s a revolution, because things are so dire. It’s not a question of privilege, it’s just I got to do this. Rebellion, I can say this shit in my job and lose my job because I have the financial privilege of being able to support myself until I go somewhere else. I don’t know. I’m just kind of sitting with that right now. Yeah.
Jenn:
Good point.
Aaron:
I haven’t seen Le Miz, so I can’t…
Chavonne:
So we’re going to pause again.
Aaron:
Yeah, right.
Jenn:
We’re-
Chavonne:
Jenn’s going to sing you the entire musical.
Jenn:
Hold it. I was like, ooh, should we start with Red and Black?
Aaron:
So my funny story around this is when the movie came out recently, my partner wanted to watch it and I was like, Donald I have no interest. So I didn’t, but they were telling me the story and I was like, this is horrible. This is… No one is… Just kept getting worse, he’s like that’s why it’s called Le Miserables. And I was like, “oh, it’s not called Miz, it’s called the Miserables.” It’s all miserable. I was like, oh, I get it. That makes sense. So I thought it was just The Wiz, right? Just La Miz. And I was like, this is dark. I don’t know.
Jenn:
It is.
Aaron:
Look, goodness, nothing good happens here. Love the whiz. But yeah.
Chavonne:
Also, I love The Wiz.
Aaron:
So.
Chavonne:
That’s awesome. That’s awesome.
Jenn:
Yeah, no, I love that. And I’m going to call myself in again because… Mental note for me saying out loud for later is that I’m like, oh, I’ll do that. I’ll take on the consequences. But also, I’m like, I will probably never have to do that. That’s not my job. It’s only in some very distinct circumstances where I’m the client’s only provider and it’s some… There’s people have left the team and I’m the only one left. There has to be some really specific circumstance, which that will be my job. So I’m just over here hypothetically, talking about a responsibility that isn’t mine and weighing, just weighing about it. And that’s very white woman of me. I just want to name that because it is very, very dietician stereotype-like. So I just want to name that because it drives me mmm when other people do that.
So I just want to call myself in. I’m not just, I want to process it more because I’m like, oh, I’m absolutely sure. Having no vested interests whatsoever. That’s what having a lot of privileges. I don’t have to have any vested interests. I can just weigh some opinions, throw them out there, just see where they land, where they stick. Just want to name that because I don’t want to be stigmatizing of mental health needs because that’s not my area. Even if I have to be adjacent to that all the time and eating disorder work, that’s still not my area.
Aaron:
That’s right.
Jenn:
I just want to name that for me.
Chavonne:
And there have been cases I’ve had to report and I hate it, but I also don’t want to lose my job at the university hospital here. Someone coming up positive, it’s not the case now because we are, it’s legal here, but a mom coming up positive for marijuana, when they give birth to a kid. I’m like, oh, I don’t care. I’m like this, you’re not smoking heroin anymore, this kid is healthy coming out of your body now. So I get that. I did what I needed to do because I felt that if I lost my job, then I wasn’t able to advocate for other families. So it’s
Jenn:
Yeah.
Chavonne:
Balancing the benefits.
Jenn:
Harm. Yeah, it’s a harm reduction and a risk reduction conversation all in one and extreme… It’s extremely complex and nuanced. And I’m talking about it with my conclusion, that’s so simple, but it’s not. It’s extremely complex.
Chavonne:
But nothing’s simple in the helping profession.
Jenn:
No, nothing.
Chavonne:
There’s just not. It’s nothing.
Jenn:
You’re right.
Chavonne:
There’s nothing. Literally nothing. So-
Jenn:
Yeah, I’m just sitting.
Chavonne:
It’s Okay.
Jenn:
Yeah.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Jenn:
It was feeling a bit of ick. I’m like, why did I have to, oh, judgment and make a conclusion about that. I don’t even know why I had to do that, but I want to just name it.
Chavonne:
I didn’t feel ick. I just had to say something. I was just like, interesting.
Jenn:
No but I-
Chavonne:
It was, yeah-
Jenn:
I thought it was ick.
Chavonne:
I don’t want you to feel ick.
Jenn:
If I was in a situation with a client trying to explain myself, I would’ve done it in a much more nuanced way. So I was just noticing how it was not in a nuanced way, because that’s not how I usually approach a topic like this. So just interesting calling myself in to process, not to change my opinion or anything. I don’t know where [inaudible] but just to process.
Chavonne:
Totally.
Jenn:
Okay. Speaking of podcasts as a place to reflect and process, how has hosting a.
[1:21:00]
Jenn:
Podcast as a place to reflect and process. How has hosting a podcast about, by and for fat men enhanced your connection with your embodiment? And what learning and unlearning feels like it was only possible because of the space you hold with the stories of others on the Men Unscripted Podcast?
Aaron:
Well, the first thing that I am just grateful for is that people came forward to do it. It was, as many things, professionally sort of a whim. And I just put it on my Instagram and people were like, “Yeah, I’ll do that.” And I’m sort of surprised. And then when I did season two, people were like, “Oh no, I heard this one and I want to do this if you ever do it again.” And I was like, “Okay.” So one, I was just supremely grateful for people to come forward and do this because I think it takes a lot of bravery to do that.
The thing that I think has been helpful is really leaning into the fact that there’s not one kind of story when it comes to this topic when unfortunately, because most of the narratives around body image are in a female identified body. The male experience, or the masculine experience, will get lumped in as just one. And I think the thing that was really appealing about doing this was validating that there are many different stories, that there are many different experiences. There are commonalities and things that connect, for sure, but there are different stories. And how do we make space for those stories, not just lumping it together as one.
And the other thing that I found really helpful is just being there to listen. I think do podcasts for the same reason you all do. It’s my excuse to talk to people and that’s fun to me. So I think it’s very exciting to be able and supportive for me to be able to talk to people that way. And so for me, it just felt good to connect with folks and sort of witness their story.
Even when I did my other podcast, Dietitians Unplugged, I don’t think people listened. I think that’s what allows me to do it, is I’m just talking to someone and then yes, I’m going to do this odd thing to publish it into the world. But when I’m doing it, I’m like, “No one’s really going to listen to this.” I’m just talking to you. And so I think that’s what sort of allows that sort of framework, or not framework, but the comfort of being able to just show up really authentically in it.
And lastly, the thing that I’m just so grateful for is hearing how beneficial people found hearing the stories. Listen, I’ll be honest, my listenership is not huge, it’s rather small. But that’s okay because the people who do need to hear it, do. And even if it’s just one person, I think that’s enough. Because again, hearing that we are not alone is really powerful. And I think that for a lot of folks, that is their entry point into doing some healing work.
Chavonne:
Absolutely. I love Dietitians Unplugged, but I think specifically, the Men Unscripted Podcast, like you said, it creates this space that just doesn’t exist, and it’s so important and so necessary. Absolutely.
Aaron:
Yeah.
Jenn:
Yeah. Thanks for being a container.
Chavonne:
Yeah, thank you.
Aaron:
Yeah.
Jenn:
I listen to every episode, just so you know.
Aaron:
Well-
Jenn:
Jenn’s always over there listening.
Aaron:
My stats, according… I was wondering why I had such a high viewership listenership in New Mexico, and it shifted to Alaska. But now it all makes sense.
Jenn:
It’s me.
Aaron:
Listen, and my other avid listeners, so Jewish, are my parents. So I’m like, why are people listening in France? Oh, that’s right. My dad lives in France and-
Chavonne:
Oh, how fun.
Aaron:
Yeah, I’m big in France, apparently.
Chavonne:
Huge in France.
Aaron:
I mean, it’s just one person, but I’m big there. Yeah.
Chavonne:
I love it. I love it. I think that’s the best part of podcasting too, is getting to hear people’s stories. And I’ve often said I get more out of this than the people that we’re interviewing.
Aaron:
Sure. Sure. Yeah, totally.
Chavonne:
It’s not, but it really feels that way for me.
Aaron:
I get it, totally.
Jenn:
I get enough what my niece would call sweat money. Like if I’m sweating, she puts her hand on my neck and she’s like, “Sweat money.” I don’t know where it comes from. But I get enough sweat money alone for it to be worth it. I’m always… I feel so much. But we designed a name and a conversation and a vessel we wanted to hold, and we hold it really well, that it hits all the heartstrings spots for me and the tickling my brain spots for me. And ooh, it’s key in the body stuff. What did I just say out loud spots for me and the, oh, I don’t know. I never thought of that before. I have to take some time to think about it.
Interested people is a really interesting thing to be around. So talking to people about what they’re interested in is just interesting. So it’s just, it’s fun. Chavonne said earlier today, and I can’t remember what the context was, if you’re not having fun, do something else. If you’re not having fun, do something else until it’s fun. And I was just thinking, this is really fun.
Aaron:
Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
Chavonne:
And I love that it highlights that there’s not just one story because especially in the eating disorder or disordered eating body image, et cetera, fields, it’s all of these myriad stories about female identifying people and then the male identified. So, Absolutely. That’s really cool. That’s really, really cool.
Jenn:
Very good. And you have a great podcast voice.
Chavonne:
Yes, you do. I was going to say that, but I was like, is that weird? I almost said it.
Jenn:
I’m not afraid to fan girl. You have a great podcast voice.
Chavonne:
Well, I was like, is it talking about someone’s body if I say it? I was really sitting here thinking-
Aaron:
Yeah, that’s a good question. Well, but much like my body, I can’t change my voice. It is what it is.
Chavonne:
There you go.
Aaron:
Here’s something that I think, very tangential, we could totally nerd out. We talked about microphones, is my editor sort of said, “Hey, you probably want to buy these microphones.” And he said, “It’s probably going to work well for your voice,” that certain mics are going to pick up different tones and different levels differently. So I think about, again, just like with that idea, is there some bias in how mics are created in the voice and how they sort of pick up voices. I literally bought four mics and then just did tests and returned the ones I wasn’t going to use. Yeah. So I think about that for sure.
And I don’t know about you all, because I have to listen to the episodes once I’m done, I got very used to hearing my voice, which is not something… For all the nerd podcasters outright, if you see people wearing headphones, it’s because they can hear their levels in the mic. And I sort of like that now. I like when I have this mic on, I can tell if I’m right here, I can tell if I’m back here, in my head. It’s actually sort of comforting now to just know, that’s how I sound. That’s how it comes out.
Chavonne:
I love that. I really love that.
Jenn:
That hearkens back to what you said about embodiment and what it means to you, that it’s really simple and it doesn’t have to be complex. And it’s really kind of mundane in every day, like the sound of your own voice and the vibrations, right? Because that’s how our ears hear. Just like the vibration of your own voice. It is comforting. It’s regulating. You even mentioned laughing, which is known to be very regulating from forever and ever, in all sorts of fields. Talk about that. And not just us. All mammals have a laughing quality to them that’s regulating. So I love that.
Chavonne:
Yeah, I love that too. Thank you.
Jenn:
That didn’t feel tangential, that felt super related.
Chavonne:
I loved it, I loved. It makes sense. I tend to sing if I’m feeling really stressed out. I am not religious, but I grew up in church, and so I end up singing gospel if things are like, I’ll just turn on the music that my parents listen to, and that’s how I bring myself back to earth often. That makes sense.
Aaron:
Yeah.
[1:30:41]
Chavonne:
It makes sense. Just because I like it and it’s what I remember. Not beliefs or anything. How has your experience advocating for fat providers and fat men with eating disorders in your monthly groups? So your ED provider support group and your men’s body trust group, how has that changed your own sense of embodiment? What have you found that we can learn and unlearn from each other surrounding the stereotypes of fat providers, men with eating disorders and recovering while fat?
Aaron:
Yeah. Again, so fun in work. Much like the podcast, these groups sort of started on whims. The provider group I do with my friend and colleague, Dr. Rachel Millner. And we were just talking one day, I was like, “Hey, there’s nowhere.” We’re realizing that for providers who are struggling with eating disorders and newsflash, there’s a lot of us, probably more than you think. There’s nowhere to go.”
They can’t go to treatment sometimes because they’re going to see someone they know, there’s shame around that, they’re not going to say they’re struggling because there’s been this really harmful narrative around being recovered. And that narrative, once you get past a certain point, you’re not going to struggle anymore, which is, I don’t believe is accurate. And then there’s this also other piece of that, there’s this idea that I can’t do good clinical work and also struggle, which I think is false. And so we realized there’s nowhere for these folks to go. And so we created a group.
And again, to our surprise, people signed up and wanted to come to a group. And that space has been very, I think, normalizing in a lot of ways to say, folks are like, :I didn’t want to join this group. I was really scared. I didn’t know who was going to log in. Was I going to see someone I know?” All these things. But then to also say, “And it was so helpful to just not be”… It’s not supervision. It’s not like a case consult. It’s like you are here for support. You’re not here to support others. It’s like, we’re here for you. And a lot of folks don’t have space for that. So that felt very nice for me to one, to provide that service. But two, I think for me, it’s community building. It’s just like, again, every other week I get to hold space with these folks. And for me, it’s like a connection.
And the men’s group I run too is very similar. It is started on a whim. I was like, “There’s no groups for dudes out there who are struggling, and so I guess I should do it. So some other schmuck doesn’t do it and doesn’t do it well, I’m going to do it and hopefully do it well.” And so I started this group. And again, lo and behold, people joined. And the really interesting thing about that was as soon as that space was created, people wanted to talk about everything. So I’m in this group and I’m one, just blown away by where folks will go. And then without a lot of prompting, all of a sudden, we’re talking about intimacy, we’re talking about penis size, we’re talking about being naked in front of partners, we’re talking about sexual performance. We’re talking about all of these things that don’t come up in my life very often, but are things that we all struggle with.
So just being in awe that, wow, this is where people need to open up around. And what I’ve been without intention to sort of happen, but it doesn’t matter if you’re queer or straight, all of these experiences have been allowed in the room, right? So it wasn’t just one type of way of around intimacy, it was all the different kinds of ways in which people could find intimacy and with who. And that was allowed, which was also very nice to see and to witness. So I think it’s been nice to see how, again, I have broken record moments. And my broken record moment is, this is another absolute definitive evidence that community is necessary in our healing. We can’t do it alone. And that we need, in some ways, to be witnessed in our struggle. And that struggle is normal. And so I find that any ways that I can be a part of community or facilitate a community to be developed is where the fun is. That’s fun, that’s enjoyable work. And I don’t know if you all notice this or run groups, but facilitating group is fucking hard.
Jenn:
It’s so hard.
Aaron:
It is a way different skillset than being a clinician in the room. And yet, I do like it. But it is hard. It is a very different kind of space to hold. It’s a different way to show up, for sure. But I think it uses another part of my sort of personality brain that also feels really good, but it’s very uncomfortable. Yeah, it’s very uncomfortable a lot of times. But I’m okay with that.
Chavonne:
Yeah. Jen just said creativity.
Aaron:
Yeah, there you go. Yeah.
Jenn:
Just letting you know. A question popped up into my mind as you were talking about this. I don’t know if it’s just how I was feeling in my body, but this is what I thought. How does it feel to create space for you too? Because I could hear it in there. How does it feel to create space for you also?
Aaron:
So that’s something I think, in all honesty, that’s something I struggle with because the space is for me in a different way than it is for those providers, or for the men I think in my group, there are times where I wish I was not facilitating and one of the participants, for sure. And I think the things that I continually work on is where are those spaces for me? And that’s hard. That’s not easy. And I think the place where I hope our profession changes, and I think hopefully society changes, is that we begin to see all the humanity in the folks around us.
And that just because, “Oh, I’ve heard his podcast, so he’s not really as human as maybe some other folks.” It’s like, “Oh, I know him.” Well, you know me through the podcast, but in my head, it’s like I’m just fucking Aaron.” I sit on my phone scrolling on TikTok and playing stupid puzzle games. I am anxious, I am totally loud inner critic. I love that you resonate with my podcast or appreciate the work that I do. And it’s like, and I’m totally floundering in life, just like all of us. And so I think there’s a beauty in that. And again, I think that’s a hard thing for people or for me to also find in some ways, it’s like, who are the folks that just know that I’m that bumbling dude, that sort of nerdy Star Wars guy who’s probably going to say something highly inappropriate in about four sentences. And I’m also this, I’m also doing all this stuff.
Jenn:
Yeah, you’re a person.
Aaron:
Yeah.
Jenn:
I think that’s what made me want to ask the question is I could hear your own humanity in that.
Aaron:
Yeah, yeah.
Jenn:
Yeah. We’re messy, flawed mistake making people. We’re just people.
Aaron:
Yep.
Jenn:
I appreciate that. I fan girl hard about Aaron Flores, but I see you as a person. But I think that’s a good note though, you’re just person.
Aaron:
If you want my poster, I’ll send it to you. It’s autographed. Got a members only jacket.
Jenn:
Will you sign it?
Aaron:
Oh, totally.
Jenn:
Okay, then I’ll put it on my wall.
Aaron:
Yeah. I put my face right on David Hasselhoff’s from Knight Rider. So it might look similar, but it’s way different. But I will send it to you.
Jenn:
Okay.
Aaron:
Yeah. And I have a different one where my face is over Luke and Leia’s, the whole original Star Wars poster. But they’re all me. Don’t worry.
Chavonne:
Yeah, they’re all you.
Aaron:
Yeah.
Chavonne:
That’s fantastic.
Jenn:
Exactly. Your Star Wars nerdiness is the way in which I relate to you the most. That metaphors can be very human. Yeah. Mean they are very human. They’re literally neuroplastic and cognitive flexibility. That’s like how we work and relate and change, and then integrate and interpret and process.
Aaron:
Oh, yeah.
Jenn:
So I appreciate that. Right?
Aaron:
Yeah.
Jenn:
And being human is also to really want to nerd out about something.
Aaron:
Yeah.
Jenn:
So thanks for nerding out with us.
Aaron:
Yeah. I have Star Wars quotes going through my head all the time.
Jenn:
Yeah. May the 4th is one of my favorite days of the year. Happy Birthday to oldest sometime soon. Okay. Wait, happy birthday to your oldest, that already happened when this podcast comes out.
Chavonne:
Oh, yeah. Thank you. And my youngest, when this… Oh, both of them will have had birthdays by then..
Jenn:
Yeah.
Chavonne:
Yeah. My May 4th baby. He will not wear the Star Wars shirts that I buy him. So when he’s older, we’ll explain why.
Aaron:
Yeah, exactly.
Jenn:
Auntie Jenn will help.
Chavonne:
Sometimes I can force it on him. Huh?
Jenn:
I’ll help. Auntie Jenn will help.
Chavonne:
Yes.
Jenn:
Broccoli will help too. They love my dog. They’re scared of my dog, but they love my dog. Broccoli will help.
Chavonne:
They’re scared of all the dogs, but they also talk about Broccoli for three weeks after they see him. He was a dog named Broccoli, and I eat broccoli. Okay.
Jenn:
He was in the car. Yeah, he was. Thank you for being here with us.
Aaron:
Yeah. It was my pleasure.
[1:42:09]
Jenn:
As we finish up this episode today, what would you like everyone listening to know about what you’re up to and how they can find you? What direction do you see your career, work, however you’d like to phrase it, taking you in the future?
Aaron:
Yeah. Well, that I don’t know yet. It’s sort of unknown. I’m going to keep doing what I’m doing for the foreseeable future. So yeah, if you want to learn more about what I’m doing or check out my podcast, or be interested in joining either of the groups I run, my website is AaronFloresRDN.com, and I’m on Instagram, @AaronFloresRDN. Those are probably the two best ways to follow what I’m doing. And if you want to work with me, that’s a great way to reach out and ask what it might look like to do this alongside with me.
Jenn:
Along side.
Chavonne:
I love that.
Jenn:
Yeah. Thanks for being a space holder. I knew it.
Chavonne:
A space creator. Yeah, it’s huge.
Aaron:
Yeah. Well, thank you. Yeah. And it’s great to be here and share some conversations with y’all.
Jenn:
Yeah. Thank you.
Chavonne:
Thanks. This has been awesome. I’m so excited to meet you. So I love it. Thank you so much.
Aaron:
My pleasure.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Jenn: Thank you for listening to Season 3 of the Embodiment for the Rest of Us podcast. Episodes will be published every two weeks-ish (let’s be real!) wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also find the podcast at our website, EmbodimentForTheRestOfUs.com.
Chavonne: And follow us on social media, on both Twitter @EmbodimentUs and on Instagram @EmbodimentForTheRestOfUs. We look forward to being with you again next time in this evolving conversation.