Embodiment for the Rest of Us – Season 3, Episode 3: Alishia McCullough
June 8, 2023
Chavonne (she/her) and Jenn (she/her) interviewed Alishia McCullough (she/her) about her somatic embodiment journey of reclaiming the Black body.
Alishia McCullough (she/her) is a Licensed Clinical Mental Health Therapist, Somatic Healer, Writer, and Culture Shifter supporting BIPOC folks to holistically heal their relationship with their bodies. She specializes in somatic therapy, trauma healing, and eating disorder treatment with a focus on increasing embodied awareness and liberation. She is the owner of Black and Embodied™ Counseling and Consulting PLLC, outside of her clinical work, she is a Co-Founder of the global Amplify Melanated Voices Movement 2020, and has worked as a mental health influencer in META’s “wellbeing collective”. Her work has been featured by Forbes, Target, Bustle, Times OC, and Black Girl Nerds. To learn more about her work, check out at blackandembodied.com and her Instagram account @blackandembodied.
Content Warning: discussion of privilege, discussion of diet culture, discussion of fatphobia, discussion of eating disorders, discussion of healthism, discussion of racism
Trigger Warnings: None for this episode
The captions for this episode can be found at https://embodimentfortherestofus.com/season-3/season-3-episode-3-alishia-mccullough/#captions
A few highlights:
6:36: Alishia shares her understanding of the complexities of embodiment for Black, Indigenous, and People of the Global Majority
36:45: Alishia discusses her devotion to her own embodiment and supporting others’ embodiment process
45:01: Alishia shares her process writing her book, Reclaiming the Black Body
53:11: Alishia discusses how she sees her support work expanding in the future
1:01:35: Alishia shares how she encourages others and herself to hold boundaries around checking in with capacity, tuning into misalignment, and reclaiming energy
1:25:37: Alishia discusses the linked parallels of trauma-informed and race-informed work
1:39:57: Alishia shares what’s next for her personally and professionally
Links from this episode:
On Being with Krista Trippett episode with Resmaa Menakem
The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down
Music: “Bees and Bumblebees (Abeilles et Bourdons), Op. 562” by Eugène Dédé through the Creative Commons License
Please follow us on social media:
Twitter: @embodimentus
Instagram: @embodimentfortherestofus
Captions
EFTROU Season 3 Episode 3 is 1 hour, 52 minutes, and 05 seconds long. (1:52:05)
Chavonne: Hello there! I’m Chavonne McClay (she/her).
Jenn: And I’m Jenn Jackson (she/her).
Chavonne: This is Season 3 of Embodiment for the Rest of Us. A podcast series exploring topics and intersections that exist in fat, queer, and disability liberation!
Jenn: In this show, we interview those with lived experience and professionals alike to learn how they are affecting radical change and how we can all make this world a safer and more welcoming place for all humans who are historically and currently marginalized and should be centered, listened to, and supported.
Chavonne: Captions and content warnings are provided in the show notes for each episode, including specific time stamps, so that you can skip triggering content any time that feels supportive to you! This podcast is a representation of our co-host and guest experiences and may not be reflective of yours. These conversations are not medical advice, and are not a substitute for mental health or nutrition support.
Jenn: In addition, the conversations held here are not exhaustive in their scope or depth. These topics, these perspectives are not complete and are always in process. These are just highlights! Just like posts on social media, individual articles, or any other podcast, this is just a snapshot of the full picture.
Chavonne: We are always interested in any feedback on this process if something needs to be addressed. You can email us at Listener@EmbodimentForTheRestOfUs.com.
[1:36]
(C): Welcome to Episode 3 of season 3 of the Embodiment for the Rest of Us podcast. In today’s episode, we have our second deep dive with friend of the podcast and change maker, Alishia McCullough, about her embodiment evolution and beyond!
(J): Alishia McCullough (she/her) is a Licensed Clinical Mental HealthTherapist, Somatic Healer, Writer, and Culture Shifter supporting BIPOC folks to holistically heal their relationship with their bodies. She specializes in somatic therapy, trauma healing, and eating disorder treatment with a focus on increasing embodied awareness and liberation. She will have a new offering in just a couple weeks from this episode’s release called “Reimagining Eating Disorders 101”, which we will link to as soon as it is available.
(C): Alishia is the owner of BlackandEmbodied™ Counseling and Consulting PLLC. Outside of her clinical work, she is a Co-Founder of the global AmplifyMelanatedVoices Movement 2020, and has worked as a mental health influencer in META’s “wellbeing collective”. Her work has been featured by Forbes, Target, Bustle, Times OC, and BlackGirlNerds. To learn more about her work, check out her website at blackandembodied.com and her Instagram account @blackandembodied.
(J): Thank you so much for being here, listening, and holding space with us dear listeners! We can’t wait for you to hear each and every interview this season. And we can’t wait to listen and be in this conversation again ourselves!
[3:17]
Chavonne:
Our third season of the podcast continues, today we have our second interview with Alishia McCullough. She/her, who is joining us from the DMV area. We had such an expansive and deeply healing time with you in our first season as our first interview on the podcast.
Alishia:
Woo.
Chavonne:
Ever.
Jenn:
Ever.
Chavonne:
We had to have you back for a deeper dive. So let’s get started. How are you today and how have you been since 2021 Alishia?
Jenn:
Weird.
Chavonne:
I know.
Alishia:
Time just flies by and well, today I’m doing really well. I feel very settled today. Very grounded. In 2021 that just feels so long ago. So I’m like reflecting on all that has occurred. And I think for me, the biggest thing about 2021 was going through a process where I left my job. I also decided to move into a space of doing more ancestral and embodiment work. And actually, and I’m thinking about it, that was more 2022, but I feel like 2021 was like the launching pad, leading into that space. So I’ve really just been in a space of taking it day by day, going with the flow and really continuing to be in a space of healing through scarcity and survival wounds and patterns that inevitably come up when you start to slow down in a capitalist society. So that’s what I’ve been going through.
Chavonne:
Ooh. The feeling of… Go ahead.
Jenn:
No, please, please.
Chavonne:
No, I’m fine. Go ahead.
Jenn:
We’re going to do it back and forth forever. I love you.
Chavonne:
Always.
Jenn:
I love you.
Chavonne:
I love you too.
Jenn:
I love even the way that you slowly said that, I could feel in my body how deeply you were feeling that too. I just love that part.
Alishia:
Thank you.
Jenn:
Love that for you.
Chavonne:
Yes.
Alishia:
Thank you.
Chavonne:
Absolutely. And I love the idea, something that really stuck out for me already is, finding those wounds that show up when you slow down. I mean, grief is always painful, but it’s just the beauty of what can come from that and just even acknowledging that grief can exist, that’s really powerful.
Alishia:
Absolutely. Thank y’all for recognizing that because I think it is so different than the way we’re used to operating, where it’s like you wake up and you have a long list of things to do, and you’re working your hardest to get everything done, and then at the end of the day, you’re so tired that you’re just on autopilot almost. And so I think it’s really important, holding space for that grief that does happen in grieving not only the old lifestyle, but also just even in the slowing down the grief that you don’t even reckon with, like the pandemic that we’ve been in for years now, or the many lives we’ve lost throughout the couple years from the pandemic and other racial traumas and things as well. So I think that space really gave me permission to begin to really heal through that grief and acknowledge all the feelings that were suppressed or that were dormant because they just didn’t have the opportunity to be processed and expressed at that time.
[6:36]
Jenn:
I love that you’re getting that time and have had that time. That’s amazing. And that feels really related to what I want to ask next too. We, together in conversation together that year, we explored so many nuances of embodiment and the systems and the structures of oppression that hinder embodiment. One area we really want to deep dive into with you is about the complexities of embodiment for Black, Indigenous, and people of the global majority. How has that topic sat with you, felt heavy for you and expanded for you?
Alishia:
I really appreciate that question. And so I’ve really been into that word embodiment since I’ve been writing my book, because my book is titled Reclaiming the Black Body. And so in that process-
Chavonne:
Sorry. I’m so excited. Can’t wait, can’t wait.
Alishia:
Right.
Jenn:
Love it.
Alishia:
And I think that’s the energy I want to cultivate around the book is that you feel ecstatic to be a part of this process of reclaiming your body. And I think through that, I had to learn what does this term embodiment really mean? I mean, it’s a buzzword that gets thrown around a lot in many circles. And so for me, it was really sitting with it and going through embodiment myself and then saying, “This is how it looks for me,” reflecting on my client work or just even consultations and things and saying, “Where are the connections? Where are the threads here?” And then defining that. And so if I can, actually, I’d love to read you the way I define embodiment in my book, if that’s okay?
Chavonne:
Yes, please. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I didn’t even look at Jenn I was just like, “Yes.”
Jenn:
Yeah. Our jaws just hit the floor.
Chavonne:
You could read the whole book to us right now, would be great. Yes.
Alishia:
I appreciate that.
Chavonne:
Please.
Jenn:
Don’t mind my leaky eyes. I’m just taking it in.
Alishia:
I love this. I love this y’all.
Jenn:
We love you.
Alishia:
I appreciate that, I want to thank you.
Chavonne:
We love you so much.
Alishia:
Thank you all. Well, and so when we’re thinking about embodiment, I wrote, “True embodiment is in part liberation and healing. It is personal, cultural, energetic, and ancestral. It is being both in our physical bodies and in relationship with our bodies, while also recognizing that we are human beings with so much more to offer to the world. Embodiment is about remembering and reclaiming parts of ourselves that have become fragmented through trauma, so that we are able to break long-standing generational and cultural patterns and step into the soul, the wisdom, the inherited gifts that are our birthright. Embodiment comes from finally dressing the wound that shows up through an imbalance, chaos, and disorder with our eating. When we repair our relationship to nourishment, we create the conditions necessary to return to ourselves while simultaneously allowing our inner healing and transformation to ripple into the collective. We deconstruct systems of oppression while cultivating regenerative and balanced systems that affirm our wholeness and our right to exist just as we are.”
Jenn:
Just as-
Chavonne:
That is… Yeah. I have chills. Chills, everywhere. That is-
Jenn:
I have so many leaks coming out of my face right now.
Alishia:
Thank you. And thank you for allowing me to share it. This is the first time I’ve ever shared anything from the book publicly, so-
Chavonne:
Oh, we’re so honored. We’re so honored. Absolutely. Just, I agree with every… I mean, it’s just perfect. It is. It explores the joy and the grief. It’s just every aspect of it.
Jenn:
Yeah.
Chavonne:
This part and this part, and it’s all coming to this really expansive, really, I don’t even know what words I’m saying. It’s just incredible. Sorry, go ahead, Jenn. I’m just going to-
Jenn:
No, I’m just nodding and leaking some more.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Jenn:
The word regenerative really stuck out to me, just in what you were describing in oppressive systems and structures and what holds people back, particularly people of the global majority.
Alishia:
Yes.
Jenn:
That the direction to look can be towards something regenerative. Ooh, that struck me. I was already leaking before that, but ooh, it got leaky. It was beautiful. I feel so honored. I actually don’t have words for that part, the honored part. I just know that I-
Chavonne:
So honored.
Jenn:
… feel that.
Chavonne:
Yeah. Dressing the wounds is what’s sitting with me really, really intensely right now.
Jenn:
Yes. The salve that you talked about, that’s right that also stuck out to me too, salve is one of my favorite words. So is balm, we were just thinking about these analogies of tending to ourselves and also doing it tenderly.
Ooh, I gave myself chills. I mean, I already had chills, but just your words gave me chills. I didn’t say that right. I didn’t give myself chills. This is giving me chills. Words can be, the body doesn’t often speak in words, it speaks in images and experiences and all of that. But there’s something about those words that you just shared that felt like you were speaking from a body. And I don’t know how to put it other than that, but it was incredible.
Alishia:
Thank you Jenn. Yes. Yes to that. And even what you were sharing, what came up for me is not only defining embodiment, but what conditions keep us from being embodied as we were sharing as Black, Indigenous people of the global majority. What are those conditions? And I’m thinking right now about a quote from one of my somatic teachers, Kareem Bell, where she said, “There’s wisdom in the wound.” And so the wound in itself is [inaudible] back into the body. It’s honoring the place where we say we deserve healing through that wound. And so even as you were describing the process of embodiment, I view it as both not only being expansive, but also a contraction as well. Because we’re being mindful of where we’re holding, we’re being mindful of where we are going inward, so that then we can be prepared for that expansion and that release when it’s time. And so that’s what I’m just reflecting on all of that, even as we’re in this first part here.
Chavonne:
Oh, wisdom in the wound. Oh-
Jenn:
Wow.
Chavonne:
I’m like, oof. I mean I’ve already had too much coffee, but I’m like buzzing even more than I was before we started that.
Alishia:
Yes.
Jenn:
That’s a good description. I’m buzzing.
Chavonne:
I’m buzzing. And I was thinking even before you said that, something else that really stuck out for me was the external and the internal process. I didn’t write it down, and I’m sure I’m going to butcher words, but in my head, what I heard and what I remember now is kind of doing that internal work of healing those wounds as well as healing those external wounds, those societal wounds, those socioeconomic wounds, et cetera, et cetera, to be able to move toward this wholeness, toward this embodiment state, Ugh. Wisdom of the wound is, oh man, that is everything. I love your definition so much. I really, really do.
Alishia:
Thank you.
Jenn:
It sounded very you also which I loved very, very much.
Chavonne:
Yes.
Jenn:
If I can be so bold to say so.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Jenn:
It sounded like you.
Chavonne:
Yeah which is kind of my question, I was going to ask. If It’s too much of a digression please let me know. But what was your process in even coming up with that definition of embodiment?
Alishia:
Yes. And so this took a while actually. I actually was writing other chapters of the book before I even came back to this introduction and was like-
Chavonne:
I love that.
Alishia:
These are the things that I haven’t [inaudible] and I will say, for me, this whole process even of writing about these topics, whether it’s embodiment, somatic work, eating disorders, racial trauma, honestly, I think it’s all interconnected. But even in writing about that, I had to go through my own process of slowing all the way down of experiencing and embracing ease, of really leading into more creational, abundant energy. And I know those things can seem abstract, but just knowing that as with the end of the definition, we are enough just as we are. We have a right to exist just as we are. And so I literally had to give myself permission for all of those things to even manifest through this definition.
Chavonne:
Oh, I love that. Slowing and embracing ease. What led to… I think sometimes, so for instance, I took this year of rest because my body was like, “You got to slow down, or I’m just going to give up on you for a while.” Do you feel like you were called to take that rest or did you intentionally say, “This is the time I’m going to take for rest.” What do you think?
Alishia:
I’m going to say it was a mixture of both.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Alishia:
And I’m going to say it in that, so for me, it got to the point where I realized, and I’m fine saying this, that my somatic embodied pattern is to dissociate or shut down or distance. And so there was a lot of ways I was operating where I didn’t even notice that, that was what I was doing because it had become so normalized just to be on this autopilot, to be in such a disconnected state. And so I started to notice very slowly I started with mindfulness and yoga, and then I noticed that or I’d take plant medicine and say, “I feel different.” This feels more at ease. I didn’t know this was possible. And then through those experiences, I expanded out. And so I began doing more ancestral healing, recognizing that a lot of the ancestral trauma was showing up in my present experience because it hadn’t been addressed through the lineage.
And whether that’s on an epigenetic level, whether that’s on a collective level, I had to go back to those ancestors and have that conversation around, we have a lineage to heal here, because one, that’s important, but also because it’s showing up right now for me and affecting the way I’m living my life. And so a lot of it too is going back into that ancestral work where I was instructed that, you do need to rest. You do need to slow down your pace. You do need to embrace and accept that you’ve done so much and now it’s just the time to receive that and learning to be in a space of receivership and really surrendering to the process of the unknown.
And so those were the things that I think really created a space for me to be able to slow down and just be present and become, really I think too, it was a becoming process, whether that was moments of becoming undone, moments of just not having any of the pieces at all. And then moments where it started putting itself back together again and I still didn’t know what was happening. And then the moment of finally feeling like I’m blossoming, I’m receiving, but also knowing even that is not a destination, that there’s still those moments of shedding throughout that too.
Chavonne:
Oof. Ooh, space of receivership. Talk about embody. That’s oof. I love that. Yeah. I love the idea of shedding too. Sorry, go ahead.
Jenn:
No, please.
Chavonne:
I’m good. No, I’m just talking. You go. I’m good. I’m good.
Jenn:
Okay.
Chavonne:
No, I feel good. I feel good now. I’m fine. I’m good stopping.
Jenn:
Slowing down is often not perceived as the sexy option. And there was something in the way that you were describing that I was like, “This is a really sexy option.” I have never heard it described like that before. First of all, you’re a great narrator of that experience. I have chills all over me. You can actually see that, it’s weird splotches.
From talking about receiving the unknown, ooh that sounded really sexy. I was like, “Ooh, that’s interesting to me.” And then also shedding, you were talking about wisdom and the world and plant medicine and ancestors. Shedding feels like a process we used to engage in as just a human or an animal on this earth so much before but it’s something that has been blocked for so long. Shedding even felt sexy. I was actually picturing a phoenix even being engulfed in flames and coming from that as something new as a form of shedding, which is reminding me of the definition we were just talking about where it’s healing wounds from the inside and outside. That also feels just so… I love that you are so supportive to yourself in this process and these processes are not perfect. They’re not easy, but they sounded sexy to me. And that just, I think, is the sound of embodiment perhaps coming through to me. I’m not sure how to phrase it other than that, but it just, ooh it landed.
Alishia:
I love that Jenn. I love that because I feel like it feels like that in my body. Like you said at first, we just have such a culture because it’s so heavily patriarchal that’s averse to these things. But there’s something about it that feels just sensual and just careful and pleasurable and just in touch with ourselves and our bodies in a way that I don’t think we have experienced in this culture for a while now.
Chavonne:
And like you said earlier, there’s such buzz around this and the way you are explaining it feels buzz-less almost, and we’re going to get down and dirty and actually describe what this is instead of, you should have self-care and whatever, and here’s a plant to put on your desk while you’re working 90 hours a week or whatever. So I feel like you’re really like-
Jenn:
Dang.
Chavonne:
Do you feel you’re diving deep into that? Huh what did you say?
Alishia:
That was on point.
Chavonne:
Yeah, here’s your plant. It felt really buzz-less in a good way.
Jenn:
Yes.
Alishia:
Thank you.
Jenn:
Oh yes, well said. I agree.
Chavonne:
Yes.
Jenn:
Yeah. My eyes are so leaky. I can’t stop leaking. I’m crying, but I’m like, you can’t stop. That’s very interesting. I’m such a compartmentalized person. Something about this is breaking me open in a really gentle way. It’s not cracking my voice or anything. I’m just leaking. I’m not sure what that is for me, but it’s incredible. And this, and I didn’t mean to cut you off Chavonne if you had more?
Chavonne:
No, no. That was it.
Jenn:
Okay. This inward look, this inward transformation like metamorphosis, all these kind of words and feelings that are coming to me is also reminding me of the other part of that wound, the outside part, and an area we really played in. It was this delicious center part of our last time together, we were just really playing in this, talking about the real things that keep people from embodiment, the real things where people answer with, “Put a plant on your desk,” but they’re real things and they’re very big, like wealth redistribution, like dismantling and abolishing systems, and also liberation of all sorts of varieties. We didn’t always use that word, but all sorts of varieties in our last conversation. I’m interested in how these topics have sat with you and felt heavy for you and expanded for you also. I just love sitting in this inner space. I wonder about that outer part too.
Alishia:
Absolutely. And so I’ll say this too, just to link the inner and outward together and say, I think the work we do within ourselves, much like that definition, really does ripple into the collective. And so if we’re all each person showing up more embodied, we know that we have nervous systems that have mirror neurons that are mimicking each other and seeking safety constantly. Every time we’re talking, every time we’re engaging folks. And so if we’re stepping out in the world, from this space of embodied, I like to say transformation or embodied healing, then that is going to affect the other nervous systems that we’re interacting with when we’re out in the world. And I think that’s where that change will come when we have more folks being able to have these embodied experiences, being able to heal their nervous systems to be in a space of regulation, that is where we’ll begin to see a lot of that change and then be able to have those tougher conversations around things we do want to see different in our society.
And so I just want to link those things. And then also more so to the outward expression of it is for me, the specific example is around wealth redistribution. And so I have even leaving therapy, doing clinical therapy, I was so nervous and so scared, and my nervous system was all over the place because I’m like, this is the first time since I’ve at least been 17, that I have not had a job, that I have not worked and that I’ve not been an overachiever or someone who is just very much into that perfectionistic hyper productivity. And so I was super scared about it, but honestly it took me a while to even work with the ancestral energies that we talked about earlier, but also with myself around, what does enough look like? Because I think we have this idea of you have to have this amount, you have to do these things. You have to constantly be doing more and more and more to achieve more and more and more.
But it’s like, what do you actually need in this moment so that you feel good and so that you feel taken care of so that you feel affirmed. And I had to get to that place for myself. And then also recognize that the way we describe abundance or the way we describe scarcity is still very much wrapped in white supremacy. And so I even redefined what does abundance look like for me? And I think the first practice of that was one of my coaches said, “Look around your apartment right now.” And she was like, “That’s all things, that yes money is the resource, but you exchanged the resource for everything you have around you right now.” And it gave me chills, and it also gave me just a sense of gratitude as I looked around and said, “Wow, these are expressions of myself I have around me” and I have so many things around me. And so that’s just looking at things, but that’s not even your support system or other privileges that you may have.
And so for me it was reframing abundance and also recognizing that we can really work with the resources that we do have. And so for example, when we think about embodiment or somatic work, it’s often take the 1000 plus dollars certification, go get the $300 massage. Now you have to go do your Reiki certification or all these other body-based things, which are important, but we don’t talk about, we are accessible to ourselves through sitting down and doing a body scan or through checking in with your breath and notice how it’s functioning in every moment. Or maybe you have a meditation song that really supports you, or maybe you decide to go put your hands under some cold water because you need to adjust your temperature and regulations.
So these are things that may be accessible to us, but it’s bringing down these embodiment resources to a level that most meets people where they are. And so I think that’s how it’s looked different for me, just thinking about that wealth redistribution, but also thinking about the ways we define these type of concepts when it comes to a space of abundance or scarcity or not having enough.
Jenn:
That’s world changing shit.
Chavonne:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jenn:
Just my first response.
Chavonne:
Good one.
Jenn:
I heard that as so outside of the current structure, that, that kind of accessibility is literally tangible. I can reach out and touch those resources. The simplicity of that is also not lost on me that this capitalistic, patriarchal, otherwise oppressive system is so complicated and forces everything. And I mean, force in a trauma way, like really forces everything to be so complex, unnecessarily so. What if it can be simple.
Alishia:
Yeah.
Jenn:
Even the way you were approaching those questions, my brain was going like, oh yeah, of course we explore these. And I was like, a bunch of stuff was coming up. But what you were answering with was really simple things. And I felt that contrast from within myself and with what you were saying. First journal topic of the day, but I was like, oh this is so interesting. Asking questions I’ve already asked myself. I’ve asked myself those questions hundreds of times.
Alishia:
Yes.
Jenn:
But outside of the context of our system, I don’t think I’ve actually asked, I’m very passionate about being outside the system, but I don’t think I’ve asked myself those questions from that perspective outside of that complexity where it can be simple. And it’s kind of like you were saying, just with the title of your book, that it has reclaiming in it. It’s back to when it was simple is actually how I heard that, that we already have these things. We already know so much of this. Why can’t we just do what has been simple?
Alishia:
Exactly. Yep.
Chavonne:
Oof. Oof I love, what resources do I have right now that I can work with it. It makes me… So I read Rest is Resistance last year by Tricia Hersey, and I mean, it took me a hundred years to read it because every time I started reading it, I’d fall asleep. I was like, it’s about naps and I just keep falling asleep every time I started, it was awesome, but it’s like, “Oh and I’m out”, as soon as I read four words, which is very restful. But one thing that she said is people think that this idea of rest, this idea of napping, et cetera, is only accessible to people who have the privilege of not having to work, the privilege of all kinds of things. But she was like, I would just take a nap on the bus or the train on the way to my second job.
So what resources can we use now is really, really powerful. I really, really appreciate that. And I agree with Jenn. I’m always saying things like, you can resist against the system, rebel against the system is what I was trying to get to. But how can I do that myself? Is not a question I ask myself very often? So I’ll definitely be writing on that too. So thank you. That’s really powerful.
Alishia:
Absolutely.
Jenn:
Wow. We love thinking about things, and we did this in our last conversation too, that are beyond, and this is very much, like the pocket that this is sitting for me, whatever modality, whatever label, whatever name, the space beyond is so much more personal and accessible because of that. That stuff’s in the way. I’m just really getting a strong sense now, which I’ve sort of always had, but I don’t know, it’s a little different. It’s a little cemented, a little more, well, that’s too permanent, just buried a little. Is that it’s clear that there are things in the way of that conversation. Reminds me of the only way is through, but that sounds like you have to go through incredible amounts of healing and get to some sort of destination and that kind of stuff. But really sitting in a process where it’s like, I can skip all that stuff.
We have a fast-forward button, I guess that’s what I’m trying to say. There’s some sort of fast-forward button or like old school when we all used to have DVDs, that’s considered old school now.
Chavonne:
I know.
Jenn:
This is when I was in high school, in college, but DVDs, there was a menu where you could go to each section of a movie or TV shows and you don’t even have to press the fast-forward button. You can say, this is where I want to land. This is where I want to be. And it was very much like that, that I was hearing in what you were saying, it’s like, I want to be over here where I’m free to think about this and answer for myself. It’s incredible. So I dated myself like, hello everyone. I know what to say-
Chavonne:
I was going to say, remember when that was revolutionary?
Jenn:
Yeah. And that was really revolutionary that you didn’t have to just fast-forward [inaudible].
Chavonne:
What?
Jenn:
So yes. Yes.
Chavonne:
I was thinking of a video tape re-winder too, just a few days ago. I’m like, stop when you could put it in the thing and it wasn’t in the VCR, you could have the set… Anyway.
Jenn:
Yeah. And sometimes when my partner and I want things to be slower, just like on this theme of slowing down, we literally use a VHS tape. We have the old-
Jenn:
…Slowing down. We literally use a VHS tape. We have the old VHS rewinder that looks like a race car.
Alishia:
Yes.
Chavonne:
Oh wow.
Jenn:
But actually, I think ours is a 50s car, but I used to have a racecar one another time.
Chavonne:
So funny.
Jenn:
But it’s this little red car because we’re like, “let’s watch a movie the way that we used to watch it.” Titanic was four different, or five different VHS tapes to finish it. Not one DVD. Like that idea of slowness. We did used to do things really simply when we look back, even in an analogy way. So I just love that we… Oh, chapters. They’re called chapters on a DVD. Let’s go find the chapter.
Chavonne:
That’s what it is. We can temporize it now. You can either go fast-forward or more times fast-forward. So you just-
Jenn:
Yes.
Chavonne:
I feel very old.
Alishia:
Well, I think keep this, right? This is a tool that you’re talking about right now, Jen, especially with that, because I think you’re right. Even watching movies or shows used to be so different when we were using these other VCRs and things like that. And so I would say, this is a part of it too, is can we preserve some of those older things and bring them into the new as a way of slowing ourselves down to have that balance?
Jenn:
I love that. And that’s actually reminding me, my parents have told me, apparently this happened when I was a kid, but I don’t remember. Early days of satellite, you had to wait for… You would choose your thing and then you had to wait for it to come down over the satellite before you could start. There was some sort of massive delay. I don’t remember this. I’m sure I left the room or whatever. I’m sure it was too long for my young mind.
Chavonne:
Yeah, you were done. That was bathroom break time.
Jenn:
But we can go even slower. What was actually wrong about that time is probably only that half of your backyard had to be taken up by a satellite dish.
Alishia:
Yes.
Jenn:
Otherwise I’m not… Is that really bad to have to wait? You could pop popcorn in that time. You can play a game in that time. You can use that time. So I like that. I like this. Thanks for bringing this space so that I can sit in that. I love that. It’s a fun space, to slow down is fun.
Alishia:
Yes.
Jenn:
I see why it felt sexy earlier when you were talking about this, is that there’s just room for exploring. And I love that you even said “expanding and contracting.” There’s an incredible amount of dynamics in a slower space. I mean, I can hear it in our conversation. It’s already in the way we even talk about it.
Alishia:
Exactly.
Chavonne:
And meditation offers that slowing down that you mentioned before. Almost slowing down to get moving. That’s really cool.
Jenn:
Yeah.
Alishia:
Yes.
Jenn:
Yeah. It’s clarity. I just heard you talking about… To my brain, that sounds like clarity, where it’s like I have to slow down so I can clearly see where I’d like to go. Because Chavonne I have talked about this in some of our summary episodes. We like to meditate by walking. That is my meditation. I don’t do sitting down looking at the wall stuff. I can’t do it. I’ll fall asleep.
Chavonne:
It’s very hard.
Jenn:
That’s nap time.
Alishia:
Yes, exactly.
Jenn:
I can’t do it. So I process a lot by walking and listening to people talk, listening to music, listening to it… Just like… Or just nature. I actually prefer, since having a dog, I have figured out… Because if I have a phone, there’s no way I could look at my phone. I won’t notice what’s happening and something’s going to happen. It’s like a small kid, it’s going to be too fast. I can’t even be doing that.
Alishia:
Oh my God. Yeah.
Jenn:
So I’m like, “why even bring my phone on the walk?” It’s pointless for me now. And I was even listening to stuff, but I still couldn’t hear what was going on. So I’m like, “okay, but I just need to be engaged.” And it has helped me slow… My brain really slows down on a walk now differently than that. So I love the possibilities here. I don’t like to use the word potential for people. I like to do it about ideas only. I don’t like to talk about people’s potential, but this as a concept, as a practice has a lot of potential.
Alishia:
Absolutely that. I was going to say too, and there’s a lot of, not that we have to back everything up by research, but there is a lot of research that shows that the walks in nature and just being outside does transform you. Even for me, I’ll go on a walk and I’ll start off getting out the car and I’ll be walking my dog, as well. And I’ll usually be just very tight and just anxious and preparing for the worst things. And by the time I get to the middle of the walk… So I’m thinking about this loop I go on, that’s more of a circle. So by the time I get to the middle of the walk, I’m like, “Okay,” I’m starting to now check in. I’m starting to now be aware of my body. I’m mindful of the trees and the water and the lake, all those things.
But by the end, when I’m coming out of that, what I like to… It’s kind of like a forest, and I’m coming out of that forest, everything just feels so refreshed, so new. I have not left this space in the same way that I entered. And I think that’s what feels really powerful and transformational about nature, is how it has that ability. And I even, in my more recent practice, have been using nature to really inform my embodiment and even inform treating eating disorders because I’m like, “Nature is a reflection of who we are.” We just have to pay more attention to it. It already can tell us what we need to heal, as well. So I’ve just even been thinking more about even the embodiment work as an extension of our earth and how that is regenerative and how it does nourish itself and all of these things. And so I think that was really helpful, Jenn, that you brought that up about being out in nature and doing the walking, and being in the walking process.
Jenn:
Thank you. Awesome.
[36:45]
Chavonne:
I love it. I love it. I love it. So one of our favorite parts of the last conversation that we keep coming back to was the devotion as a form of attuning to and expanding the depths of embodiment.
Alishia:
Yes.
Chavonne:
There’s a clarity to this that feels distinct from the typical whitewashing of access to embodiment, mindfulness, wellness, and even medical care. So we might hear it in things really shame-based, like “you should,” “you’re supposed to,” or “it’s just so easy” language. What shows up for you in continuing to explore coming home to yourself and your body and supporting other humans in doing the same since that’s your work?
Alishia:
Yes, thank you. And I will say that since then, I’ve thought more about that term devotion. And so I actually looked it up because I was like, “let me make sure I’m using the right word here,” or the most aligned words for what I’m saying. So I looked this up and I saw “devotion is love, loyalty, enthusiasm for a person, activity or a cause.” And I think that helped me even open up more of what I was saying because I think about with that definition, it’s a choice. Devotion is a choice and it’s a possibility. And I think that I’ve been really leaning into that even within my practices. So I think I might have mentioned, but I do have a regular practice of yoga. But every day is not the day to practice yoga, even if it’s a restorative session, it’s not. In my own practice and experience, it hasn’t been the most helpful to do it every day.
I feel like there needs to be space for rest so the body can reset itself and things like that. And so I think even in that, it’s a process of devotion around, there’s moments where there’s more movement, there’s moments where there’s more being inward in the body and stretching it and allowing for it to contract in the way it needs. But then there’s also spaces where it really just needs to rest and experience the effects of what just occurred. And that’s also a part of healing the body, as well.
And so I’ve really been leaning more into the ebbs and flows of devotion while also still recognizing it as a practice and a relationship. So a practice and a relationship with… Whether that’s the body, whether that’s your environment, whether that’s a person. That’s how I’ve been thinking more about that definition.
Jenn:
Oh my gosh.
Chavonne:
I hadn’t even thought of devotion that much. Wow, that’s really incredible. Yeah, and I think also as you were talking about that, it made me think of the whitewashing of yoga and you’re getting more to what yoga really is, instead of just the one asana or just the one the limb of yoga. Not just “I practice, I practice, I practice, I practice,” but it’s all of those things. There’s the rest of it. There’s the ebb and flow of it. So it’s much more holistic in what it’s meant to be instead of just what we see a lot of in the United States. Really love that.
Alishia:
Yes.
Jenn:
And, you know, when we talk about, as a collective world maybe, not even just our American culture, but movement is talked about like it is the healing part a lot. But the rest and regeneration and restoration… Like muscles literally are rebuilding themselves stronger or longer or whatever the practice is. Our joints have more air in them and space to feel relaxed and without pain. Not air, just space, I meant. But just that the recovery part is one of the most important parts. And as I was just listening to this, I’m starting to ask myself this question, is it the most important part?
Alishia:
That’s good.
Jenn:
The way you were talking about that. I was like, “That’s really interesting” because I could hear the healing in that. And so is the movement healing? Maybe in the case of yoga, maybe. Or holding, yoga’s more holding, bracing and that kind of stuff. So that feels in a way more healing than overburdening your body with some kind of movement that doesn’t work for your body. However, that rest period, recovery, nourishment. I’m thinking back to your definition to regeneration that you just mentioned again, that kind of… It’s just interesting to me, again, another journal topic I’ve made for myself, but I don’t think I’ve phrased it like that before. Is the recovery the most important part? Is that the healing part? The word recovery seems to imply that. So it’s just really sitting with me as a question now.
Alishia:
That’s so good, Jenn. And I feel like that… So when you were saying it, an image came to mind for me. And what came to mind was the way that rest does allow for every part of our system, whether it’s our organs or our digestive system or our endocrine system, immune system, all of it, the whole body, it allows for the whole body to have a space to really slow down and take a pause. And yes, there’s still those sensational things. Your cells are always moving and doing their thing, but it really does allow for the body not to have to overwork. And I think it’s so this gives us space to support our body and saying, “Okay, you’re in the process of already healing and now I’m being intentional of supporting you with that healing by cultivating a space of rest.” And so I thought about that.
And I also then thought about something I’ve been recently going back and forth around is, how do we heal internalized capitalism within every organ of our body? And so in what ways, for example, if I’m having heart concerns, what ways am I putting more pressure on my heart space by maybe not healing some past trauma or emotional stressors that then add to the more things my heart has to do? Or maybe there’s other things, like if I’m not adequately nourishing myself, how is that affecting the way my cells are regenerating or the way that my bones and things are moving? And so I think about, even in these processes, how the urgency, the over-productivity, the ways we force our body from this culture do show up, that capitalism shows up in these organ systems, and how can we intentionally think more about that process or be more in that process of supporting the body?
Chavonne:
Holy Toledo.
Jenn:
Yeah.
Chavonne:
This is also, sorry, toddler mom trying not to swear as much, but how do we-
Jenn:
Here, I’ll do it. Holy fuck. Holy shit.
Chavonne:
Yeah. Holy Toledo. That’s my second journal topic. How do we dismantle capitalism in all of our bodily systems? My head is like, “I got to go journal for the rest of the day. I’ll see you later.” It’s really… It’s something that people don’t talk about. How do you get to the nitty-gritty of dismantling systems and every single aspect of your body and your life? That is… It feels very life altering. It really does. It really does.
Alishia:
Yes. Thank you, Chavonne. Yes.
Jenn:
It feels like something to make a career out of. It feels like something to support other people in supporting other people about. This is very affirming to life path stuff, as well. This kind of moment in a conversation. And actually I don’t know if I have words for the next thing I’m feeling. I don’t, but we’ll see if they come. But I have some other, I don’t know, really strong stirring in my body that I can’t quite put words to yet. But I love my body stirring. It’s like a restlessness, but not like it doesn’t feel comfortable in holding this space… A restlessness that’s like, “I can feel the energy of what’s to come,” and it makes me restless to go get to that. But I don’t know what it is yet. But there’s just something that’s sitting really differently.
Chavonne:
It’s that feeling of needing to slow down so I can move forward. That’s what I’m feeling right now. I need to sit with this so I can be like, “And now I’m moving.” That’s really powerful. Really… Oh, that’s huge. I love that. I really love that.
[45:01]
Jenn:
Okay. I can’t wait for this next one.
Chavonne:
Yes, let’s do it!
Jenn:
I can’t wait. Okay. We’ve already talked about your book a little bit, but I am ready for my face to leak again. I’m just ready. And I’ve already even said this, I think once, that you’re great at describing and illustrating things. I’m like, “You’re so narrative.” It’s so incredible to follow.
Chavonne:
Yes.
Jenn:
Specifically talking about reclaiming embodiment, we talked about that a lot before. You talk about that all the time. It’s just like… This is a topic of conversation. And you have a book coming out, and this book is coming out in 2024. In being in the process and practice about embodiment while writing the book, Reclaiming the Black Body, what shifted for you during this process? You already mentioned the slowing down. What else shifted for you and what did you release? What did you let in?
Alishia:
That’s really good. And so for me, I had to come into this… So I’ve been working really in the energetic field as well, and been adding that into some of my practices. And so through energy, recognizing that everything around us has its own life force, it has its own spirit, it has its own entity. And so for me, it was coming into relationship with the entity of the book, which I know feels like so huge and it was.
Chavonne:
I love it.
Alishia:
It really was. So for me, I had to practice of really calling in the book to me and asking the book how it wanted to present itself to me. And so there was this relationship with the energy of it chapter by chapter. So I mean, when I first approached writing, I approached it in the way we might normally think about, where it’s like you get on your computer, you sit down, you have all these topics, you write, you got to get this amount of things out.
This very structured, rigid, I would also just say, maybe more patriarchal way of writing. However, I learned just through the process that wasn’t working for me, and I wasn’t really speaking from my heart, that I wasn’t really speaking from the wisdom that I’ve received, whether it’s ancestrally or energetically. And so I said, “I need to be more in alignment with this.” And so for me, it was coming into relationship with the entity, but also recognizing this process as a birthing process. And so for me, I’ve said throughout this whole writing process is, “I’m birthing a book. I’m birthing a book right now.” And it has felt like that. There’s been labor, there’s been spaces where things haven’t always gone well. There’s been times where I’ve had to get a consultant to go over some things. As I was developing the process of the book, there’s been parts of myself understanding my own narrative voice and also understanding how to make things more prescriptive and what places to allow space around and how a reader might view it, but also how my colleagues would view it.
So all of these things of holding space for, and consideration for, but also recognizing through the process that it is this more creational tool that’s going to come out of this process. And so what it’s been like for me, is this birthing experience, as well as this relational experience with the energy of it. And it’s been… I’m excited for it. So I’ve actually fully finished writing the book. It’s now more so an editing mode. And I read back over the chapters, and I’m just like, “Oh my God, I cannot believe I wrote this.” But I know I did. And I think that it just opens up a new level for me of understanding myself through writing this book, too.
Chavonne:
I cannot wait for this book. 2024 is so far away.
Alishia:
I know.
Chavonne:
I mean, I don’t need time to fly, but it’s really far away. As a person who has given birth, everything you said, I was like, “Yep, check, check, check, check.” So it’s just a beautiful, beautiful process. Just hearing your process of reading this is just so powerful. So powerful. And I love the idea of connecting with it as an entity. I love woo-woo stuff. So like you said, I was like, “Yes, tell me all your woo-woo. Give me all your woo-woo.”
Alishia:
Yes.
Chavonne:
So cool. So cool, so so cool.
Jenn:
There is so much-
Alishia:
And you know-
Jenn:
Oh, I’m sorry, please.
Alishia:
You sure?
Jenn:
Yes.
Alishia:
Okay. I was just going to respond to Chavonne and say I think it literally is everything you shared, because even for me, even releasing the book, it was supposed to come out in 2023. However, there’s aspects of, again, the book as it comes to me, it might not have been prepared at that moment for it to be turned in by a certain time. And while in the super rigid structure, it’s like, you have to get this turned in by this time, and then you release it here and you do this… For me, it’s been taking that step back and being like, before I got in, before I even decided to write this book, I gave it to spirit. And so for me, it’s like, I know it’s in good hands. I know it’s protected. I know that it’s going to make a huge impact in the ways that I set out intentionally.
And so that will happen in the most aligned and most… The perfect timing, if you want to say, when it’s supposed to be out in the world. And so I keep reminding myself of that, even through the setbacks, even through times when I’m like, “Oh, I just wish that I could have it right now. I want people to read it right now.” But kind of going back to myself and being like, “Nope, it’s going to come when it’s supposed to come.” So that’s also been a part of this birthing process as well, is accepting the flow of it.
Chavonne:
And you say… I know you can believe it, but you said, “I can’t believe I wrote this” and I’m like, “Of course you did.” Your Instagram is like reading a book. Every post, I’m like, “Yes. Tell me more. Tell me more. Tell me more. Tell me more. Tell me more.” Yeah. It’s just, of course you did. Like Jenn said, you’re such a great narrative voice. Absolutely.
Alishia:
Thank you. Thank you.
Jenn:
Yes. It’s not lost on me that Jessica Wilson also has a book coming out, which I think is this week, next week.
Alishia:
It is.
Jenn:
Something like that. Yeah, It’s Always Been Ours.
Alishia:
Yes.
Jenn:
It’s going to be… I already pre-ordered it. It’s going to be at my house whenever it is. I can’t, sorry, I can’t remember the date because I pre-ordered it. I don’t remember but it’s like sometime in this month of February.
Chavonne:
I will be ordering today.
Jenn:
To be able… I love this for both of you, one. Two, I love this for us, that we get to read your words, sit in those words, be in expanded conversations. And that there is a part of this that shows me what to be hopeful about. And I love sitting in that kind of energy. It makes me feel really hopeful. That the synchronicity of that… I just remembered that while you were talking, I was like, “Oh, isn’t that book coming out this week or next week?”
Alishia:
Yep. And I do want to really gass Jessica’s book up. So I read her book, It Has Always Been Ours: Rewriting the Narratives of Black Women’s Bodies. And I cried. I was listening to it on the way to New York. I had drove to New York one weekend, and I was listening to it, and I was concluding the book. And I just sat there and I’m like, “Our books are so complementary.” They’re very different from the approach, but they’re so complementary. And it’s just the amount of healing that I know this field will get from these books, I just was blown away by what was shared in that book. So yes, when it comes, it is going to… I don’t even have the words of how we’ve been needing this. And this is that gap area where we’re like, “Where’s the gap? Where’s the gap within care?” These are the books that are filling that gap.
Chavonne:
Oh, I’m so excited.
Jenn:
I’m clutching myself just trying to handle this.
Chavonne:
And of course it’s complementary. You created this enormous movement, this powerful, so important…. That’s how I found you two.
Alishia:
Yes.
Chavonne:
Amplify melanated voices. Of course, you both wrote books. And of course they’re amazing. And of course they’re complementary. I can’t wait. I can’t wait. I’m so excited. So excited.
Jenn:
I’m freaking out. I don’t even know how to process it.
Chavonne:
I’m like, I can’t… Had to dance it out for a second because my body is like… Okay, too much caffeine, but also really excited. Really, really excited. Oh, so pumped. So pumped.
Jenn:
Oh my gosh.
[53:11]
Chavonne:
Yeah. You’ve expanded the space you hold for mind, body, spirit, healing and coaching as you have deepened your own connection to ancestral wisdom and healing connections to nature, dating while in process, and offering access to disordered eating and eating disorder support to black folks. Alishia, how do you see your support work expanding in the future?
Alishia:
I’m so excited. I’m so excited for this question. And I say that because I get this visual and vision of me being… Really continuing to expand community. So that being the first thing, is creating opportunities for more people that are coming into the field to receive education, training, and embodiment services that are more in alignment with racial liberation and anti-oppressive work and decolonial work. So that’s what I’m most excited about, firstly, but also in that I am already in the process of planning out a coaching program to support folks with embodiment and working with BIPOC communities. So I have all the things already planned out, and now it’s just deciding when to launch and how to really get this offering out there.
But I think that is going to be very transformational because it’ll bring in that somatic work that we’ve been talking about so far, the racial healing and racial trauma work, the anti-oppression lens. It’ll bring in the ancestral and spiritual pieces. And so there’s just so many things and that feel just integrative and holistic that I’m really excited to introduce into our field. And so, yeah, that’s what I see. And I also could see just in the future, some certification programs and really being that Black leader, and that’s not to be in a Black excellence type of way, but that’s more Black leadership within this field that is very much needed, as you both know.
Chavonne:
So needed. Yeah, you will be. I’m like, “Take my coins here. Just take them.” Instead of all the dumb that I buy on Amazon all the time anyway. So this is so powerful. I could see Jenn’s smile getting bigger and bigger, and-
Jenn:
It is. It hurts a little, but in the best way. It hurts, but in a great way. Yeah.
Chavonne:
Oh, I totally see you leading that movement, filling that space. And I think it’s so important and so powerful. And I’m thinking of you as you’re talking about consultation of people who are doing this work, training the people who are doing the organizations in their own cities. I can’t even talk. I’m so excited. I’m just really excited. This is super cool. Super, super cool. Especially that ancestral piece that’s not spoken about a lot, if at all. Yeah.
Jenn:
It makes me think of the healing that’s been kept from previous generations, and that that might not be true anymore is amazing.
Alishia:
Yes, absolutely that, literally that. Going back to that reclaiming piece around bringing our ancestral practices into the present, because a lot of us, we just don’t know it because it’s been taken. I mean, we’re currently in a space now where we’re having books being banned from schools. And so yeah, a lot of our education is being suppressed and repressed in our culture. And so I think even an offering like this where we go back and say, “What were our matriarchal ancestors doing?” Even if I’m working with folks of all different ethnicities and backgrounds, you didn’t just show up here white. You showed up here with an ancestry. And so even back into those things in working with the ancients and talking about ways in which they healed, I think will be super transformational and powerful.
Jenn:
Yes. And this field being the eating disordered and disordered eating field, people who look like me, AKA white women, are the fucking problem. And so I was also feeling the difference and the possibilities and that shift that it’s not so “organized.” And I’m putting that in quotes where it’s like, “We do things a certain way. You can’t have rituals, but we the clinicians get to have rituals. Because we’re the clinicians. You have to do it the right way or you have to leave this treatment center. I’m too scared to work with you. So now you’re not going to work with anyone because I was the only person you had access to.” All of these gatekeeping, minimizing, dehumanizing things that happen at the hands of white women. So we, because I’m one of these people, even if I’m not doing that right now, we are the problem.
I could just hear that this is not a problem. I could just hear how needed this is. People who are in… I do really non-traditional eating disorder recovery because it doesn’t work, number one, and also because my clients are so harmed by that. Why would I do the same thing again? And the sort of rhythm of actual human beings who are going through eating disorder recovery needs to be met with realities of their healing experiences. I love this, “the ancients.” I love the idea of going to a matriarchal ancestor as a really direct counterpoint to a patriarchal society. I love that. And it’s that same kind of space where we were playing with earlier where it’s expansive, but it also contracts because it’s like, “What do you need? Okay, back to the person.” And so people can’t see me. I’m doing this wide arms and then back, because it’s like, “What do you need? Okay, here’s some choices. Now let’s come back to you.”
This kind of dynamic… It’s almost like a breath as I’m watching… Ooh, that gave me chills. It’s like a breath where it’s it can expand… And that’s what I was… You give me such great imagery when you’re talking, that I was like, “Oh, I can feel the breath of that and the expansion and the room to take a deep breath.” That’s something that when we’re talking about anyone who is not white and thin, so the standard visual of an eating disorder, I often think that they’re not able to breathe. That only-
Jenn:
I often think that they’re not able to breathe, that only one group of people is allowed to breathe. So this feels particularly meaningful, but it is intentionally with that space for that expanded and contracted cycles. I mean, muscles do that too. We were talking about recovery of your body, recovery in much deeper human places than that. We also need to expand and contract.
I have full body chilling experiences. This is you in the field. This is what you do, is you bring me chills.
Alishia:
I have chills from you, from the beautiful pictures that you just offer. I mean, I was envisioning that breath, that inward and that outwardness. And even when you said that powerful statement around, “There are communities that are not allowed to experience that,” and we’ll say, “Maybe like that often.” I can relate to that as someone, even when I go in for body work, my main issue is that I’m holding my breath a lot.
And so when I’m in my somatic therapy sessions, my therapist is like, “Are you breathing?” I’m like, “You’re right. I’m not breathing.” I’m holding right now actually because I’m bracing for that next crisis or the thing to be in that survival state. But like you said, this is that process of allowing and giving ourselves permission, using that word again, to really excel and release and be in the flow of that process. So I appreciate that visual.
Chavonne:
That was really powerful.
Jenn:
Thank you thank you for being you.
Alishia:
Thank you.
Jenn:
I already was excited that we were going to get to talk to you again, but-
Chavonne:
Oh my God. I was jumping up and down yesterday about it. My husband was like, “I’ve heard that name a lot, so I know you’re excited about it.”
Jenn:
Yeah, I’m somehow more euphoric and excited right now. My voice is not giving me away. I don’t know why, but I’m more excited and pumped and in this than I was even in expecting to have this conversation.
Alishia:
Yes. Thanks.
Jenn:
But I’m also grounded. Maybe that’s why my voice is really calm, because it’s really grounding to talk about this.
Alishia:
Yeah.
Jenn:
All of this. Oh my gosh. So you mentioned today already too, and also in our last conversation about internalized capitalism and how we take on the urgency to respond to everything and immediately.
Alishia:
Yes.
[1:01:35]
Jenn:
In the training I did with you when we mentioned last time we were talking about white people time where it’s like capitalist time, patriarchal time, everything is right now. Everything is like yesterday. Everything is it should have already happened actually, but it’s so urgent. And you’ve been talking recently, and I mean on social media because that’s where I see you talking about the clarity that you have been finding for yourself, and then also offering up about how we manage, cleanse and release energy as a way to get us to more holistic wellbeing. It makes me curious about how. How do you encourage yourself and those that you support to create and really tenderly, that word’s been sitting with me today, hold boundaries around checking in with capacity, tuning into misalignment, and then reclaiming energy?
Alishia:
Yeah, that’s good. I think about how usually we’ll just say in standard culture, which is this white supremacist, hyper productivity, capitalist culture where it’s like you get a text on your phone, you’ll immediately grab it and you respond. Then you get your emails, you go through all your emails for today and then you clear all that out, and then you clean your whole house and then you do all these things. That would be ideally what our culture would want us to do, which obviously burns us out and also just makes us feel like we’re constantly needing to do something else like there’s never a space where it’s enough.
And so I think that a lot of it has been leaning into that space of right now is enough. And so with right now being enough, I don’t have to worry about past or future. I don’t have to be consumed in those things, that I don’t have to move on linear, white culture time, that I can move in a space that’s very cyclical and that this moment is okay, and the next thing I need to do, there’ll be a moment for that. And then the next thing I need to do, there’ll be a moment for that as well. But being in the process of what is this moment required? And so that’s been most transformational for me is asking myself that question and really pausing and so to connect that to the place around energetics and how we spend our capacity.
When I have so many folks reaching out or wanting things, I recognize even showing up on social media, even in conversations, even hanging with friends or even when I was doing therapy, those are all energetic connections, and so you’re constantly sharing things and you’re receiving things. And so even in that, there’s a residue that follows those interactions. It doesn’t have to be a negative thing, a residue that just happens. That’s even with nature.
For me, it’s being mindful of when I’m stepping into my next interaction with this person, I don’t want to carry that residue with that because I want to come in very clear in my own energy, and so I typically will cleanse my space, Palo Santo, or do other cleansing herbal remedies just to clear out that energy calling the intention of I’m calling my own energy back to my body. I’m releasing this other person’s energy with love, with the best intentions and then being able to step into the next conversation or the next activity from a space where I feel more clarity.
That’s been helpful for me. And then also I’ll just add too, with the capacity piece, really checking in and saying, “So I’ve had three conversations today. They felt high energy conversations. Now I have this other person calling me wanting some more emotional, let’s say just emotional exchange. Do I really have the space for that or am I going to show up in that space deprived? Am I going to show up in that space tired and annoyed and all these things?” And it’s just like I would rather show up for this person from a space of having that abundant energy, of having that flow. And so I need to check in with myself to see do I have that? Can I tap into that? Can I shift into that space? And if not communicating like, “Hey, today I don’t have it, but potentially let’s check in tomorrow and see what the capacity feels like for tomorrow.” So those are the ways that I find these things kind of working and how I’ve been sitting with them and going back and forth with these different areas.
Chavonne:
That’s some really tender, loving care for yourself, like, “I need to stop.” That is really powerful. Especially in a society that’s like you are accessible to everyone at all times.
Alishia:
Yes.
Chavonne:
Especially as a person who’s in a healing profession. Absolutely.
Alishia:
Yes, absolutely. Say that. Say that.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Alishia:
And Chavonne, can I just add too, that in the healing profession and as black women, there’s this other layer of being in servitude, and that’s this ancestral thing of people feeling like that you’re constantly in a space to be giving. And I think about that. Even when I’ve been in stores, I’ll just be in stores shopping and minding my business and you know where I’m going with this.
Chavonne:
Oh, I do.
Alishia:
Yes. And then-
Jenn:
Do they think that you work there?
Alishia:
Yes. Or do you work here? Can you help me with this? And I’m like, “I don’t even know this store.”
Chavonne:
I’m not wearing anything like the people who work here. I can do red and khaki because I go to Target all time. Red and khaki, why do you think I work here?
Alishia:
Right.
Chavonne:
Yeah. Or I have resting therapists face. This is where I wear headphones when I grocery shop. I’m like, “Do not talk to me. Do not talk to me.”
Alishia:
Yes. Yes.
Jenn:
Well, that’s a powerful way to protect your energy. And also, I’m sorry that you have to do that because that sucks what if you don’t want to have them on a particular day? That sucks.
Alishia:
Yes.
Chavonne:
I’m also tall, so that doesn’t help either. So people ask me to pick things up all the time too. So it’s just a lot of asking. You’re right. You’re absolutely right, Alishia.
Jenn:
This sounds to me it’s inside of the ramification of black women. Is that a-
Alishia:
Yes. Go ahead. Go ahead, Jenn.
Jenn:
Oh, I was just going to say that it’s expecting that everywhere. It’s not even the idea of doing that in a more private way or in a smaller way. It’s everywhere.
Alishia:
Yep, exactly. That. And then I’ll just even add to that part because of that, because we have this history of having to do this, and this is what I dealt with when I decided to leave therapy and really do more ancestral healing, was there’s this over giver wound where it’s like you’re constantly giving so much of yourself. You’re giving every ounce of yourself to everyone you’re interacting with, to the point you have absolutely nothing else and you’re so tired to build burden and you’re feeling like if someone asks me one more thing, this is just too much. And so I think that then we have these over giver wounds where we learn that in order for me to be effective or to be considered valuable, I must be overgiving and doing the most for everyone in my life. That’s the way I show love.
And so I-
Chavonne:
Absolutely.
Alishia:
… recognize that. Yes, Chavonne, I hear you relating to that. Right?
Chavonne:
Mm-hmm.
Alishia:
And I learned that was a pattern that I had inherited. And so for me, that’s why I had to stop therapy because I was like, “I cannot show up as a therapist and not do that. And so to heal this, I need to step away from this so I can heal this.” And then when I do come back into a space of holding capacity for others, I’ve come from a place where I’ve healed this wound. And that was linking back to earlier. That’s where I really had to step into that receivership and knowing, really being in a space of being able to receive and be “selfish” and not show up for people and then be upset with that and me being okay with that, so there was a lot in even those healing lessons in that too.
Chavonne:
That is a hundred thousand percent correct. Absolutely. And I’m thinking about it taking a step back and being open to that, in that place of receivership, how much my relationships have improved by not being over giver. I can even speak to … Jenn, I don’t know if you can speak to it, but I feel like our relationship blossomed in ways I never even saw coming last year. And even relationships with family, relationships with my husband, even with my kids, getting out of that over giver space allowed me to actually have more authentic relationships because I wasn’t tapped every single second of every single day.
Alishia:
Yes.
Chavonne:
Yeah.
Jenn:
You had access to the word no.
Chavonne:
Yes.
Jenn:
Right? I mean no to the things outside of you, not to yourself because it’s the opposite for yourself. But that’s what I saw you have, if I can speak to that, Chavonne. You were like, “I don’t know what Jenn thinks.” I’m like, “Oh yeah, you had access to no.” I think that’s really important. It is a thing definitely socialized with anyone who is femme in our modern society that is what we should do and I feel like I experience baby versions of this. But if we do the miracle question that therapists ask clients, if you wake up tomorrow and everything’s different. Mine would be that my over giver wound is healed because it’s in the way of everything.
It’s one of those things that to go to the simple place, it’s the thing that keeps me from that simple place more than anything else.
I just like what you’re both talking about, to not be able to have simple experiences of going to the grocery store, of being in anywhere where there’s retail, anything. You shouldn’t have to be in service. You shouldn’t even have to say no. Yes, you get access to no, but you shouldn’t have to say no. You shouldn’t be asked. You’re just a person walking around. So that really sits deeply. I think a lot of eating disorder clients might have this wound.
People with eating disorders in traditional treatment can perform their ways through. It’s a major flaw and what is there is that if you just sit in that overworked, overachieving type A kind of place, which isn’t really a type, whatever the types are, we have all of them. None of us are perfectly anything anyway. But if we can just be visibly seen. So in other words, behind a mask, like, “Look at me, I’m performing. You don’t have to look at me, you don’t have to ask me questions. Look, I’ve done everything” in front of everyone, but nothing inside of the person or behind a closed door or whatever gets addressed. I mean, maybe in some circumstances and things are changing in some eating disorder care, but it’s like a way not have access to yourself. If you’re having to shield people trying to have access to you, how do you have access to yourself? You’re busy, you’re exhausted. I mean, I can just … It’s infuriating, but not in a way that I’m going to make either of you hold space for my anger. I will pull that out on my own.
I love this exploration of not having to give that, of not having to give overly, because giving is beautiful. Giving turns into receiving very quickly. We receive so much from giving, but over giving it takes, takes, takes, takes, right? It just takes until you’re totally drained, you don’t feel like yourself.
Chavonne:
Exactly.
Jenn:
I want you both to be able to feel like yourselves. I want anyone to be able to feel like themselves. There’s nothing more human than that. So I think what was resonating for me there is how dehumanizing it is to have that expectation on you in a deeper way. I mean, that’s a lot of racism and patriarchal stuff is to dehumanize the shit out of people so they can be controlled. I mean, that’s pretty clear. But the sphere of influence stuff where you can have access to your own healing because you should ultimately have the choice about that.
Chavonne:
Yes, exactly.
Jenn:
That’s what I want you to have access to. That’s what I want for both of you. I don’t know how that feels for me to say, but right now that’s all I feel compelled to do is give you a hug and say, “I want that for you.”
Chavonne:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jenn:
So much.
Chavonne:
Something that’s co … Oh, go ahead. Sorry. No, go ahead. Go ahead.
Alishia:
Oh no, I just want to say I received that energy. Go ahead.
Chavonne:
Absolutely. Oh no. Are you sure?
Alishia:
Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead.
Chavonne:
Okay.
Jenn:
Good. I’m sending it. Yes. I’m glad you’re receiving.
Chavonne:
And I do receive that from you, and I do appreciate that because that’s why I’m very selective in who my white friends are. Honestly, I’m not doing all that labor. I think that’s something that you and I, Jenn, do a lot, we ask permission so much. Is it okay if you do this? Can you do this? Do you want me to take this on? A lot of gratitude because we’re both over givers, which is a-
Jenn:
We are.
Chavonne:
… segue, that kind of went through my head as we were talking because you talk a lot about Jenn hyper-masking with ADHD, and I wonder if there’s an over giver wound for people who have ADHD. I think of my husband who’s not diagnosed, what would be if he ever went to go get it taken care of. But there’s that hyper masking of the overgiving because it’s either trying to hide the fact maybe, and I’m just speaking to personal experience, if you can correct me if I’m wrong, but trying to hide the fact that it’s hard to complete some tasks by saying, “I will take everything on and I’m just going to give, give, give, give, give and I can’t, but I need to keep masking. I can do this.”
Jenn:
Yes.
Chavonne:
And I wonder if that shows up in eating disorder stuff too. Yeah.
Jenn:
It’s often described as high masking because it uses so much energy. And that’s what I was already really getting from what you were both sharing. And thank you for sharing that. It like, and even as you were describing the cycle, I actually noticed a part of my cycle that I have never really noticed before, which is if you over give and overachieve, if something falls off now, we can just call it overachieving and we don’t have to talk about anything about me directly. Just landed over here somehow in the way you were saying that, I was like, “Oh shit, that’s a therapy topic, not just a journal topic.”
I have a wonderful new therapist and we’re exploring all different kinds of wounds. A really non-traditional look at trauma wounds that it’s not just the things that we might imagine, but it’s like, “Jenn, what’s happened to your body in your life? Have you been in a car accident? What are the ways in which you injure yourself without even really noticing it? Or is there a pattern?”
So that one’s going to go right there in that little conversation pocket because I’m just realizing that it’s actually the part where I say, “I can’t do it, but I’ve already offered to do all of it” that I feel the most shame. That’s the biggest part of that wound for me. I could feel the gaping hole inside of myself. Not really. I’m a whole and complete person, but just that emptiness of that vacuum feeling. Wow. Yes. It was reminding me of that too.
It’s so underdiagnosed in black, indigenous people of color, anyone socializes femme as well. But it’s so underdiagnosed. We don’t need a diagnosis. We really, truly don’t. We don’t need to be inside the naming of the DSM-V in this system. I want to name that equally.
Chavonne:
Thank you. I needed to hear that. Thank you. Absolutely.
Jenn:
You’re welcome. We don’t-
Chavonne:
I’m reminded of that all the time.
Jenn:
Yeah, we don’t need it. I was diagnosed with ADHD in my late 30s because I was on a search for understanding myself that I wanted to try on the lens in full. It’s just a thing that I came to. In therapy I was like, “I want to fully explore this, so I want to do the test,” which I’d done many times as a kid. I was like, ” I want to do it as an adult. I want to see what it’s like. I want to experience that. Can we make that accessible for me?” Was a conversation with my therapist and it was hard to find someone who would do it for me as a 38-year-old woman. It was really hard. But I needed that. But I also recognize that people don’t need that. I’m also a white woman, so that benefits me in ways that it will not benefit a black, indigenous or person of color with that diagnosis.
There’s an incredible human being who suddenly their name is escaping me, a black woman with ADHD and autism who has a website, Black Girl Lost Keys. It’s my favorite fidget website. An incredible name for a website. It’s so visceral. They have their own podcast and I can’t remember what that is either, but we should link their name. I’m so sorry.
Chavonne:
I am writing it down so I can put it in the show.
Jenn:
I can’t even picture their face right now. I just can’t remember their name. I don’t know why. You actually, Alishia, and the way that they narrate what their experience is in a way that I just real feel really interested in everything they’re saying. And they talk about how difficult it is to be diagnosed. They talk about self-diagnosis as being valid because we don’t … I mean, the DSM-V literally says self-diagnosis is valid, so that’s one of the most validating things in that whole mess of a document. I mean, it’s really validating that part because systems fail people in a huge way all the time.
In your exploration of understanding embodiment, understanding yourself, understanding, understanding, peeling back the regeneration, all these things that we’re kind of talking about today. Sometimes I really needed a name for something and that was really resonating with what you were saying like, “I needed to know there’s something called rejection sensitivity dysphoria. And that I feel rejected by my own actions and the result of them and that’s going on for me.” Because I’m like, “What’s happening? Why does it feel like the world’s ending right now? Why?” It makes me non-verbal and I’m like, “Why can’t I talk right now? Why do I have to just text people even in the same place?”
Not sometimes it makes me non-verbal, a lot. I’m not in that space as much anymore, but I disappear into myself. It made me feel like it kept me from circumstances that are opportunities that I really wanted, but I didn’t feel capable. I didn’t feel enough or I think that’s why it was coming up because you’re really talking about enoughness in the moment. So it’s like whatever we need access to in order to that grabbable like what’s around you, what’s your resources? It’s not actually the diagnosis itself. It’s not ADHD medication. It has actually been other people talking to me about their experiences.
Literally just reading Twitter or Instagram and seeing what people are saying is really … I’m like, “Oh, that says a name. Oh, that’s really interesting. Oh, other people don’t know how to describe their emotions with words? I didn’t know there was a name for that.” Those kinds of things or even that we could be inattentive and impulsive, that there’s even dynamics to it. I mean, I had no clue. I was just like, “Why do I feel burnt out? Am I done with this field? Am I done with this? What do I need to be done with? Because this feels horrific to me.” Those opportunities should be for everyone.
Alishia:
Yes.
Jenn:
So if you are being surveilled and therefore have to hyper monitor and hyper surveil yourself, how are you supposed to have those experiences?
Chavonne:
Totally.
Alishia:
Exactly.
Chavonne:
Totally.
Alishia:
Exactly.
Jenn:
Yeah.
Alishia:
That’s good Jenn. And I think even when you were talking about, it brought me back to, like you said, the most powerful part from what you’ve described is having the language to define what you’re going through, but also not only that, but to then have community and people who can relate and resonate and you can find yourself in what they’re sharing as well. And it reminded me back to the way that we used to be in indigenous cultures and in villages where you would just all come out in the circle and you’d have these conversations around what’s happening for you emotionally, mentally, physically in all the areas and then you could get that support where they’re from elders or from peers or family. And that was the space to share and heal and define language for your own community and for your own culture and how really that reclaiming process is recentering that village and that circle mindset that we used to have a long time ago before Western culture took over.
Jenn:
And before Western culture started saying, “I have an idea, but it’s just an idea from all of these places that you’re going to.”
Alishia:
Right.
Jenn:
You’re also making me think of all kinds of neurodivergence like the Hmong people in China. And I think they’re in the mountains. They have a really high instance of epilepsy, which is another neurodivergence, and they consider it being connected to the spirit world. There’s a very white-centered book about it I won’t name because it’s written by the doctor who helps people. I’m conflicted about that part. It’s called The Spirit Hits You and You Fall Down: A Description of Epilepsy that it’s the spirit literally entering their body.
And so any kind of framing, any kind of self-diagnosis, any kind of label, any kind of reference, it just gives a chance to, I mean, it helps that I have ADHD and I’ll hyper fixate on my special interests, but to explore that kind of world where that book genuinely I named it. We might want to put a warning for it.
Chavonne:
Okay.
Jenn:
I don’t know that I would particularly recommend that, but there’s incredible places where, Hmong people, I think I’m saying that right, H-M-O-N-G, that they are self-describing what happens. People with epilepsy who are from this group of people talk about the spiritual experience. They become the wisest person in their entire unit.
Alishia:
Yes, exactly. That is amazing. And can I just add to that and say, there’s another book called The Healing Wisdom of Africa by ancestor Malidoma Patrice Some, which also specifically addresses the same thing, but from that African perspective.
Chavonne:
Oh, awesome. Okay.
Jenn:
Okay. I’m ordering that book today. Thank you.
Alishia:
Yes.
Jenn:
I’m searching for experiences of this and who are written by people who are experiencing their own lineage at the very least much less just being an outsider and trying to … Back from the White Fragility, is that the name of that book? But why are people writing those books? Because they’re getting research. Because they’re getting research money. That’s why. This is also reminding me of, I don’t remember the name of it right now, but the alternative to and trigger warning I’m about to talk about, what is his name? Vasser?
Alishia:
Bessel van der Kolk.
Chavonne:
Yes. The Body Keeps the Score.
Jenn:
Yes. The Body Keeps Score a problematic human, there’s many alternative books, but there is one by an Asian- American woman who is a journalist that just came out and I wish, I can’t remember anything today, but it’s incredible. It’s without any of the pieces that are really traumatizing. The individual has not caused harm in any way that I could find. And I didn’t do that because of who they are. I did it because I was worried about his book first that I’m like, “Okay, I just want to be sure now” that … It was just incredible. What My Bones Know, that’s what it’s called. What My Bones Know. I’m not all the way through it. I’m not all the way through it, but it’s an in incre … I love that we’re all writing down so much stuff today. It’s awesome.
Chavonne:
I love this. I love the title of it by the way.
Jenn:
What I’ve read so far is this person knows how to narrate. The reason I’m interested is because they narrate what the body is saying and that’s an area in which I have trouble accessing for myself. So I have to stop at every three pages and be like, “Whoa” because I realized that I can have this kind of conversation with my body and I have to just practice that for a while. So I’m reading it really slowly. But that never happened to me with the other book for many reasons. And so not only is it an alternative, but it’s probably a better book. So it’s like all of that stuff there.
Chavonne:
Oh, I have so many things to read. I’m excited.
Alishia:
Yeah. I’m like, “I have to go back on my cart and add a couple more.”
Chavonne:
I’m done spending money for a whole 10 seconds, apparently.
Jenn:
Yeah.
[1:25:37]
Chavonne:
You have been exploring and sharing about the linked parallels of trauma-informed and race-informed work. Journeys of exploration are often entwined in layers like this, as we talked about in our last conversation. How are these topics showing up for you in your work, your life, and in your ongoing embodiment journey?
Alishia:
Yes. Thank you so much for that question. And I think what comes up for me is one of … I did this somatic program for about six months. It was through a transformative change. They had a somatic embodiment program in social justice. And so in this program, we had the privilege of hearing Raz Mammincan speak as one of our guest speakers. The way he conceptualized race and talked about the embodiment of racism really blew things open for me. And so, one of the things he shared was that when we even open up the conversation of race, there is 400 plus years worth of embodied charge behind that conversation. And I just-
Chavonne:
Oh.
Alishia:
Right. Right. And so I thought about that and I remember going, when I go … So I currently live in Maryland, but when I go further down south to North Carolina where I was born and raised, there are certain places, and more specifically when I’m driving down very thin or more so very small roads and past fields, plantations and fields, there is this, I do feel in my body, I can feel the heaviness. I can …
Alishia:
I do feel in my body, I can feel the heaviness. I can feel the grief and the trauma and the pain that is in those areas. So I can feel the energy of the land where it’s holding those experiences, but also through my body as well. So that’s what I think about. It’s like how do we start addressing trauma at that level? And we’re talking about embodiment and race-based trauma. So for me, I’ve been more focused on what is this sensation trying to tell me? So I have drove through, I don’t like driving at night in the south, but when I have drove through, I’m being very mindful of my body and asking like what happened here? Or like is there something I need to know here in this moment as I’m even going through this space?
And I will say that I think that there is still a… I just don’t think that we’re there as a field yet where we’re ready to have a modality or a treatment plan or all these other words to talk about how to heal that in our bodies. But I can see it. I can sense it, I can see it, I can feel it, and I want more of that for our somatic, I mean embodiment field moving forward. So I think just thinking about those connections, you have to be race informed in order to be trauma informed. And that’s just the way our culture operates. And there’s embodied charge, as Resmaa said, within each identity and the way we’re interacting with each other. And that has to be addressed. So that’s what I’m thinking about with that.
Chavonne:
Sounds like another project for you is to write a treatment planner.
Alishia:
Yes. For this. For this.
Chavonne:
So we’re not all using Wiley treatment planner, which is written by some old white dude. So yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. In mental health, I don’t know how it is in dietetics.
Jenn:
Well, it’s like a manual that you use to support clients.
Alishia:
Yes.
Chavonne:
Yes. It helps you write a treatment plan. Yeah. And it’s very… I mean, I like them sometimes because I hate writing treatment plan, but it’s very ritual. It’s very black and whites, for lack of a better term.
Jenn:
Or rigid. Yeah.
Chavonne:
Yeah, rigid. Thank you. Yeah. Sounds like that might be something.
Alishia:
Exactly.
Jenn:
How do you say their name? Resme?
Alishia:
Resmaa.
Jenn:
Resmaa. Okay. Their podcast interview on a podcast called On Being is one of my favorite podcast episodes of all time. Hearing Resmaa explore, open up, reorganize, it was like if you hire an organizer for your house, the way that he talks about everything, honestly, everything felt new. Speaking of regenerating, it felt like the same… That used to be one of my favorite podcast. A poet who listens to other people talk about their most passionate subject is what that podcast really is but deep stuff, not service level passions. They’re always deep, deep, deep. And this was before, I think before Resmaa’s book came out, I’m pretty sure, or it might have been around the same time, just laying out the simplicity of what we’re all making so complicated. It’s like so On Being for our conversation today. And every quote that I read that what you shared with us, I mean, everything that they say is transformative.
So I love that you experienced that in a transformative somatic space. And I think that their words are something I’ve thought about almost more than anyone else’s, any others that I’ve seen or read. And their words sit with me and I forget to go back because I’m too busy processing and integrating it and all that stuff. But you just reminded me to go back because I haven’t listened to that podcast episode since it came out. And that’s one of my first ways I love exploring someone who writes is to hear them talk. I don’t know why that is, but I do. And just they’re incredible. I love that you had that experience to have a more intimate space and time and moment with them.
Alishia:
Yes, yes. I was so grateful. And just even, I almost feel like it’s one of those things when you talk to certain people and you go into portals, and then you’re in the portal and then you come back and you’re like, “What is time? How has four hours passed?” And you just been in this conversation and it’s like that’s the space where time and everything collapses, and you’re just in that moment, you’re just in the energy of it. And I think that is what I experienced being a part of that conversation with Resmaa. So yeah, that really expanded. The way I think we think about anti-oppression work or decolonial work is really looking at it or even being in it from that body-based level and seeing what the body leads us to from there.
Chavonne:
I can’t wait to listen to that episode and read the book and [inaudible].
Alishia:
Yes.
Jenn:
It’s long. I think they even, and On Being, there’s an edited episode and there’s an unedited episode. I recommend the unedited episode because every single word is worth listening to. I appreciated everything that I wanted it all to be there. It’s also what you were saying… Oh gosh, I lost my thought. It’s what you were saying about deconstructing the systems that are inside us. I was just remembering that again when you were talking about that, that that’s a lot of what Resmaa talks about.
Alishia:
Yes, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.
Jenn:
That specific part was really, that’s the specific part I want to go back and see what they’re saying, because I’m like, “Oh, yes, yes, yes. That is the…” And in your future book, that’s where I’m going to look to as well. I don’t have that yet, so I’m just going to look over there. But I’m going to look at yours too because that kind of conversation, I love the idea of a portal of a conversation, including with ourselves. I love revisiting conversations like that because we’re new every time that we do that. So it’s like, what am I going to get this time? What’s going to resonate? What do I want to leave behind? It’s such a powerful and dynamic thing. So I’m a little jealous/a lot jealous. I’m really grateful that you got do that, but it really resonates.
Chavonne:
Absolutely.
Alishia:
Yes.
Jenn:
Deeply.
Chavonne:
I’m so excited. And I love obviously that the idea that you said that you have to be race informed to be trauma informed. That’s often not a thing that is included in trauma informed care. So that’s really, really important.
Alishia:
Absolutely that. Yes.
Chavonne:
It makes me think of able ability informed and all of the isms that can make it hard to thrive. So that’s really important. Really, really important.
Jenn:
That reminds me of Imani. I think I’m saying their last name around Barbarin’s work, the intersection of black and disabled. Crutches and spice is their handle.
Chavonne:
Yes.
Jenn:
A dream podcast guest, I will also say. Just putting that energy into the universe, I’m going to be in a space of receiving about that.
Chavonne:
Season four. Yes.
Jenn:
Everything in life comes back to this topic, is something that I have really gained from their wisdom and what they share. Everything in life comes back to that. And they speak often about how we can’t be trauma informed, and we can’t be anything but ableist unless we are race informed, because they’re inherently linked these things. They actually ultimately are anti-black specifically. And Imani’s work has made me think a lot about New Mexico, which I’m not currently in right now, but where we live, New Mexico’s pretty anti-black. And in a way that I didn’t notice before, my own privilege in the way of that but coming back to New Mexico at almost 40, it’s really, really clear. It’s worse than a much larger city and space with everyone spread out. It’s pretty incredible to me how horrible it is. I mean, it’s a Spanish influence because Spanish is a colonial language as well, that there is so much of an idea of colorism very specifically, but also ableism that bodies that were already in the space that is New Mexico before people came from Spain, that their bodies should not be accommodated.
The way that houses are built changed, the way that you got to the second floor of your house changed. All sorts of things changed in making it more white and more accommodating to white people that it’s often what’s erased. So it was bringing Imani to mind because, especially in the pandemic, talking about something that can be disabling to folks, it’s a topic that comes up a lot. So I was just thinking about about them.
Alishia:
That’s good. That’s so good. And I think that even, it reminds me like you said of how we do have to address all isms that are within when we’re talking about treating trauma or even healing trauma, that it’s important that we do capture the myriad of ways that trauma shows up in all bodies, not just those that have been standardized by our culture. And I think that’s the issue with our current trauma-informed training and treatment, is that it very much still is through that very white centric, able-bodied, heteronormativity, male gaze when it comes to all of these things. So I’m excited for it to expand. And I’m also excited for us to really get into the micro around how are we even defining things? When we talk about trauma, how are we even defining trauma? Who determined that was our collective understanding? Does that person serve us? Do they serve all these other identities that we’re talking about? That’s also important. And even how we’re treating something is how we’re defining something, and then who gets to define that?
Jenn:
Oh dang. And that’s a really wonderful call out of our current people that we look to about trauma, such as Gabo Mate, I’m just going to name it.
Chavonne:
What name did you say?
Jenn:
Gabo Mate, who’s allowed to be the voice that most people are listening to in a repeated fashion. The way that he talks about trauma is really sexy, but even the names, issues in our tissues, hungry ghosts, everything. I really get it. I get the appeal, but also it’s left very little room for considering who this person is we’re getting this information from and what are they leaving out. So really, really well received and heard because I was immediately like…
Chavonne:
Exactly.
Alishia:
Yeah.
Chavonne:
Yeah, absolutely.
Jenn:
I have never written so many things down.
Chavonne:
I know. I don’t think [inaudible].
Jenn:
We’re always scribbling and writing and all this stuff, but this is, there’s something there. That word regenerative is sitting with me when I’m in a regenerative space. If I could think of times that remind me of that phrasing and that feeling, I’m always writing.
Alishia:
That’s good.
Jenn:
So it’s very lovely and interesting to me just, and in a really organized fashion. I usually scribble all over the place, I’m just like just turning to the next page. I’m just like, “Nope, write it down. Write it down in order. Write it down. It’s very interesting to me how that’s showing up.” I think it’s the slowness. My brain is very, very, very fast. I have to work to slow it down. There’s something really slow that’s happening in my person that’s a really nice reflection. Thank you.
[1:39:37]
Chavonne:
I love it. Thank you. Absolutely. As we’re starting to wrap up, I know we asked a little bit about what’s going on and how your work’s been informed lately, but what’s going on for you? What are your plans until we have you back next time? I did even ask Jenn, I’m like, “So what before you come back?” But what do you see happening in the next whatever time span you want to say personally, professionally, what would you like us to know and the listeners too?
Alishia:
Absolutely. No, that’s really good. So I am currently in the process of really putting down the foundation for that coaching program that we were talking about earlier, the Embodied Coaching Program for eating disorder provider. So that’s where my energy is gone. And then also finishing up this book and getting it out into the world has been the other piece. So I think I’m in this interesting dance to be quite transparent in that I know that the book has required so much as we’ve described it as a birthing process. And I also know holding a container to support people in understanding eating disorders and embodiment in a way that we’ve not thought about before, is also a requirement. There’s a lot of energetic presence necessary for that space. So I’m in this place right now where I’m like, is it a one thing and then finish that up and then move here, or can I be expansive enough to hold both spaces at the same time? So that’s where I’m at with it.
I’ve also been working on some workshops just in the background because I think that we do have to go back to the basics, which has been the theme of today’s interview is the basics, the simplicity, and even the way we’re talking about eating disorders, I think it’s still through that Western gaze. So what I’ve been doing is really looking at each diagnosis and expanding it outside of the Western gaze and incorporating some of these other elements. So I’m thinking about doing a teaching program where we start with the basics even from our basic understanding of what eating disorders are. So that’s a piece of it too, is going back with that type of teaching. So workshops, potential program/book things, and then we’ll just see from there. We’ll see from there.
I think it’s an interesting time too just being a business entrepreneur and bringing in, for me, operating from a very matriarchal or very much, and I say this term in the most expansive way possible, but that feminine energy, we just have such a heavily dominated patriarchal and masculine energy where you’re going and you’re forcing and you’re pushing and getting it done. So even learning the flow in my business of how to be in flow, be in alignment, and as our word for today, slowing down, all of those things were not things I was taught how to do. So I’m learning how to do that when it comes to building my business. And I want that energy to show up in the foundations so that when I’m doing these offerings, that y’all can feel that, y’all can feel that through the program, that it was created with that intention. So that’s how I approach the things. It’s creating the intention so that other people can feel that and they can feel they can bring their full and whole selves into a space when that time comes.
Jenn:
That sounds related.
Chavonne:
Can’t wait for all of it.
Jenn:
Yeah, it sounds really intuitive in the sense that we are not born with our intuition intact. We’re just like, “Look at all this stuff I know how to interact with and do.” We learn it. We build it. We create it. We don’t find it, we… It’s like, “Go find your instincts.” Like, “They’re nowhere. I haven’t made anything yet.” That I love that you’re giving yourself the space and time and recognizing and have that intention about exploring, building your business instincts, so to speak. That’s really inspiring.
I’m just like my brain’s taking this note where I’m like, yes. The rest that Chavonne and I took at the end of last year, which we talked to before we started recording, really told me that slowing down just gives me space to hear myself. So that’s part of building instincts. I have to hear myself. I can’t be busy overworking. I can’t be busy over helping and supporting. I need to be, and it don’t have to be busy at all. I used to, I don’t even remember which white man said this quote, but I know it’s a white man, but it’s like, “The question is an are you busy? It’s busy doing what?” My partner even quotes it back to me and I’m like, “Wait, wait, wait, wait.” He just did it sometime recently. I can’t remember how recent, maybe in the last month. And I said, “Okay, but do you have to be busy?” There’s actually a first part to this that was totally left out the first time, but that was my motto for a long time. A lot of people say, I’ll sleep when I’m dead but I was like, “The question is an are you busy? It’s busy doing what? It’s like, I’m busy, busy, busy, busy.”
But there was a really illuminating experience where someone I hadn’t been around in a long time was around me again. And the difference was between college and being an entrepreneur for eight years, that kind of space. And they were just like, “Wow, you’re really busy. You just let me know when we can get together.” And I was like, it just made me pause and I was like, “Oh, I give an impression of being busy, I talk fast, so that sounds like I’m busy. It’s so much.”
So I’m really trying to deconstruct the word busy. You just reminded me of that. That’s like it actually is doing. What do we want to do is a more important than question then do we want to be busy doing it? We don’t have to be busy doing stuff, we can just be doing stuff. And that stuff can be self work, that stuff can be exploring how we can support others, how we can be intentional. What I’m hearing is you don’t get lost in your own trainings in this way where it’s like you are considering yourself as a part of this mix. I want to build some instincts like that because mine have been conditioned instead of built. And that’s what happens when we don’t create them is they get created for us. So I’m feeling very inspired by that, like really very.
Chavonne:
Very, very much so. Absolutely.
Jenn:
Oh my God, I don’t want to end. I’m procrastinating.
Chavonne:
I know.
Alishia:
[inaudible] reflecting on all that you just shared, Jenn, it’s literally marinating through like yes, absolutely. And like you said, the process of, I think it’s kind of a process and a relationship to getting to that space of, like you said, having that intuition. Because it’s like, for example, I had finished up the embodiment six month program, and then there was an EMDR training that I was, it was the time to take, and I was like, or it was just around the time where it’s available.
So I was like, “Maybe I should do the EMDR training.” So I signed up and I literally went to the first part of it and my system was blown out. When I say that, I mean I was having all the somatic symptoms that you probably, that’s not helpful in an EMDR training. It’s about body. So I got to the point, I had to just tell the facilitator like, “I’m not going to be able to do part two because it’s just too much. I’ve taken on too much.” And see, I think that’s a part of that, bringing that into the business proponent of knowing when I’ve digested or I’m full, I’m satiated and I need that to go through my body first. And then, and if it still feels right, I may do this.
Chavonne:
But less is more. Right. Which is-
Alishia:
Yes.
Chavonne:
… can mean some problematic shit, but in this case, it’s less of the stuff that just fills your time, more of what fills you. So that’s really important.
Jenn:
Yeah. Sure.
Chavonne:
Less is my word this year. So I think about it at least 2, 700 times a day.
Alishia:
[inaudible] right around, that went right back around there.
Chavonne:
Right back around. Absolutely. Absolutely. This has been… Ooh, I just I don’t even… It’s been amazing.
Jenn:
It’s been everything is the only thing I can think of to describe this.
Chavonne:
Alishia. Everything for us. Yeah.
Alishia:
Same. This has been everything. There’s so many things that I think I didn’t even anticipate sharing, but it’s just like the space just felt right to share.
Chavonne:
We are so honored in about that. And also sharing your definition is huge. We’re so, not speaking for Jenn, but I’m going to speak for Jenn. We’re so honored.
Jenn:
Do it. Speak for me. You know me.
Chavonne:
So honored. So honored.
Jenn:
You and I don’t hide anything from each other. You can speak for me.
Chavonne:
We’re really taught for better or worse.
Jenn:
Nothing.
Chavonne:
For better or worse. Yeah.
Jenn:
Yeah. That’s right.
Chavonne:
But this has been absolutely incredible. What a gift. It has meant so much to have our first interviewee back and it’s you. I have so much writing to do.
Jenn:
Yeah. I adore you. I love you. I love you both.
Chavonne:
[inaudible] so much. Thank you so much.
Jenn:
And thank you. I’m getting leaky again just thinking about the conversation we just had.
Alishia:
Yeah. I know.
Chavonne:
I can’t wait to edit it. I’m just going to cry the whole time I edit, which happens often, just crying.
Jenn:
This is a really kind of soul affirming experience and conversation for me today. So thank you for that.
Alishia:
Yes.
Chavonne:
It also feels very, very helpful at the beginning of the year when there’s lots of newness and kind of finding some grounding in all the newness of the year. Absolutely.
Jenn:
Yeah. And here in Alaska, it just started to snow. Huge magnificent flakes. But I can tell our flakes from the window, huge, just right now as we’re closing this up.
Chavonne:
Nice.
Jenn:
That feels really good too.
Alishia:
Right. [inaudible] with everything else. I appreciate y’all. I love y’all. And I’m so grateful that y’all asked me to come back. I was literally thinking about y’all’s podcast before the interview, and I’m like, I think it’s so transformational, even the name embodiment for the rest of us. It’s really been hitting me the more I think about it. Maybe I won’t say hitting me, that’s violent language. More so it’s been resonating with me around the name of this podcast.
Jenn:
I love that reframe, taking a note.
Alishia:
Yes.
Chavonne:
Same.
Alishia:
Yes. We’re so used to these words.
Chavonne:
We are.
Alishia:
But yes, I absolutely love it. And I think that, because even when we’re talking about eating disorders, it is eating disorders, but it’s so much more. And that’s where this embodiment piece comes in. Even for me, I find it hard to zero in and focus just on eating disorders. I’m like, it’s the embodiment and somatic and every other thing about our existence. So I appreciate y’all.
Jenn:
Thank you.
Alishia:
We appreciate you so much. Thank you.
Jenn:
Thank you too, Chavonne’s dream self for coming up with this podcast and then telling me about it.
Alishia:
Yay.
Jenn:
Thanks to your subconsciousness.
Chavonne:
It’s like a long time ago. This is amazing. Yeah.
Jenn:
Doesn’t it feel like so long?
Chavonne:
So long. Yeah, this was a dream starting in 2020, right?
Jenn:
Yeah.
Chavonne:
And we started in 2021.
Jenn:
Yeah.
Chavonne:
That’s one of the good things of the pandemic is giving space to I don’t have anywhere to go, I might as well second dream.
Jenn:
Oh, we didn’t have space to go to, so we made space.
Chavonne:
We did.
Alishia:
Yay.
Chavonne:
Well, thank you. I appreciate y’all.
Jenn:
Thank you.
Alishia:
Thank y’all.
Jenn: Thank you for listening to Season 3 of the Embodiment for the Rest of Us podcast. Episodes will be published every two weeks-ish (let’s be real!) wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also find the podcast at our website, EmbodimentForTheRestOfUs.com.
Chavonne: And follow us on social media, on both Twitter @EmbodimentUs and on Instagram @EmbodimentForTheRestOfUs. We look forward to being with you again next time in this evolving conversation.