Embodiment for the Rest of Us – Season 3, Episode 13: Wrap Up Episode
Monday, November 6, 2023
Jenn (she/her) and Chavonne (she/her) wrap up Season 3!
Content Warning: None in this episode
Trigger Warnings: None in this episode
A few highlights:
2:13: Jenn and Chavonne discuss how processing and practicing rest changed and challenged them in 2023
13:14: Chavonne and Jenn discuss capability vs. capacity in their personal and professional lives
23:39: Jenn and Chavonne discuss what they’re looking forward to next year for the podcast
Links from this episode:
Music: “Bees and Bumblebees (Abeilles et Bourdons), Op. 562” by Eugène Dédé through the Creative Commons License
Please follow us on social media:
Twitter: @embodimentus
Instagram: @embodimentfortherestofus
CAPTIONS
Season 3 Episode 13 is 26 minutes and 6 seconds (26:06) long.
Chavonne: Hello there! I’m Chavonne McClay (she/her).
Jenn: And I’m Jenn Jackson (she/her).
Chavonne: This is Season 3 of Embodiment for the Rest of Us. A podcast series exploring topics and intersections that exist in fat, queer, and disability liberation!
Jenn: In this show, we interview those with lived experience and professionals alike to learn how they are affecting radical change and how we can all make this world a safer and more welcoming place for all humans who are historically and currently marginalized and should be centered, listened to, and supported.
Chavonne: Captions and content warnings are provided in the show notes for each episode, including specific time stamps, so that you can skip triggering content any time that feels supportive to you! This podcast is a representation of our co-host and guest experiences and may not be reflective of yours. These conversations are not medical advice, and are not a substitute for mental health or nutrition support.
Jenn: In addition, the conversations held here are not exhaustive in their scope or depth. These topics, these perspectives are not complete and are always in process. These are just highlights! Just like posts on social media, individual articles, or any other podcast, this is just a snapshot of the full picture.
Chavonne: We are always interested in any feedback on this process if something needs to be addressed. You can email us at Listener@EmbodimentForTheRestOfUs.com.
[1:36]
Jenn (she/her):
Hi, and welcome to our wrap up of season three of the Embodiment for the Rest of Us podcast. We can’t believe we’ve been doing this for three whole seasons. Here we are.
Chavonne (she/her):
So excited.
Jenn (she/her):
Going to have a fourth one next year.
Chavonne (she/her):
So excited. We’re never going to stop. Never.
Jenn (she/her):
That’s right. Ever.
[2:13]
Chavonne (she/her):
All right, let’s dive in. We had a new question that we started asking our guests partway through the season, and it’s a big thing for us too. What do you think about doing that with each other now about things coming up in this season?
Jenn (she/her):
Sounds great. Let’s do it.
Chavonne (she/her):
Awesome. How has processing and practicing rest changed for and challenged you in 2023?
Jenn (she/her):
I love this question.
Chavonne (she/her):
Because you wrote it.
Jenn (she/her):
I wrote this question. I wrote some notes for us on this one about rest, but also letting things go and letting things be. As you can tell by listening to me, I’m sick right now. I finally got COVID for the first time. Got kids in my bubble now, so that’s how that works, which is totally fine. I’m well medicated and well rested and taking the week off and all the things that we need to do.
Something that really stuck out to me about this is that we were talking to Whitney about this question that resting for resting’s sake only was very fleeting, that we were always resting to be productive. That’s really stuck with me, so it’s something that I embraced. The end of last year, you and I took a break at the end of the year. I actually took a break from everything for six weeks. Well, I did help my sister through a surgery, so not everything, but a lot of rest.
It’s less and less challenging to be restful for me now. It’s not particularly easeful. You and I were just talking earlier, so I’m three full days into resting and I’m bored out of my mind. I want to be productive. I’m going to be honest to say I came on here and I was like, ooh, I’m going to pay my gross receipts tax, and ooh, I’m going to send some super bills that I didn’t send out yesterday. I did a couple of things for 20 minutes, but it exhausted me. I had to go lay down. I’m just not in that space. My body is trying to recover.
Rest in the middle of our podcast title, Embodiment for the Rest of Us. I still can’t believe we never caught that before. I love that it was pointed out to us. I guess my summary takeaway of our conversations about rest this year with everyone we talked with is that I want my rest to have a deepening to it. That it’s not just surface level rest, and I feel like I’m just starting to get to know what that means, so I want more. How about you?
Chavonne (she/her):
First of all, I’m sorry you have COVID. I really hope you feel better soon.
Jenn (she/her):
Thank you.
Chavonne (she/her):
I hate that. I feel like it’s just everywhere right now.
Jenn (she/her):
It is. Thank you.
Chavonne (she/her):
I’m glad you’re taking care of yourself as much as you can and resting as much as you can. Yeah, I don’t even know where to start. I agree with everything that you said. Every single thing. What a surprise.
Jenn (she/her):
Surprising.
Chavonne (she/her):
I love that rest is in the middle of our podcast name and again, can’t believe it took us this long to realize it as well. Yeah. I’ve mentioned, I believe in the episode with Whitney, that I took a year off. I’ve mentioned it quite a few times that I took a year off of rest. I called it the year of rest last year, and something that Whitney pointed out is resting to rest versus resting to get back on it as soon as you’ve taken this prescribed rest or this self prescribed rest or whatever.
Last year was a struggle in terms of getting rest, but I did it and then I came in so hard this year. I feel like it’s a challenge in a different way in that I didn’t think I was resting to get on the horse, for lack of a better term, but it felt like maybe it was in some way.
One thing I was sitting with as you were talking about that is that you got on and you were going to do this and do this, and that’s how my brain works too. I think that’s, maybe that’s neurodivergence too, which I’m exploring. I’ve already accepted for myself. Resting is really hard because even if I’m slowing down, I’m planning all the time in my head just constantly like, when things are better, I’m going to do… It’s been a challenge. That’s my challenge. It’s changed me in that I am more intentional about my week. No, I’m not. I want to say that I am. I feel like I’m getting better.
Jenn (she/her):
I have a lot of desires to be more intentional and match my impact in actions for myself.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yes. Right. Trying to be more intentional about what my rest is right now, and it’s a challenge. I feel like with the weather changing and the season changing, it feels like my body is definitely calling to slow down a little bit, but all I can think of is what I’m going to do next year. So I’m going to try to figure it out as I go.
Jenn (she/her):
It’s a good question. I’m definitely fast-forward into 2024 as well. I need to be-
Chavonne (she/her):
Right. I was like, I need a brain dumping session in the next few weeks. That’s already what I was thinking of when I was on a walk this morning.
Jenn (she/her):
That’s a good idea. We should do that.
Chavonne (she/her):
I’m working on it. I think I will.
Jenn (she/her):
Note to future us, let’s do that.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yeah, we could mirror. We could just do it on, we can have our dream session online.
Jenn (she/her):
Yes.
Chavonne (she/her):
Let’s do that. Okay. We’re scheduling it.
Jenn (she/her):
Okay. That’s a great idea. I was going to say rest in community is something that you’re reminding me of is easier. I could work pedal to the metal forever and ever and ever if I’m not careful. Ways in which you inspire me about rest are there’s a certain time of the day that you’re done.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yeah. Ooh.
Jenn (she/her):
I’ve never done that until now. I don’t see clients past a certain time now. I don’t see clients on the weekends for the first time in my career.
Chavonne (she/her):
So proud.
Jenn (she/her):
Any career of any kind. Just of all the things I’ve ever done, I’ve never not worked on weekends. Again, when I can’t work, I can’t be present, to just call it. You inspired me in those ways.
Chavonne (she/her):
We’ve gotten much better in those ways, even together doing that.
Jenn (she/her):
Yeah. As you were talking about the challenges, it’s a sneaky little bitch, this planning thing. I am challenged every hour of every day by that. My anxiety thrives with that, and to just not have to do that sometimes feels like a goal.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yes.
Jenn (she/her):
Because I don’t know if I can stop, because that’s a part of who I am, and I like so many aspects of that. It gives a lot of context to my life and a direction and all that stuff, so I don’t mind it.
Chavonne (she/her):
Right.
Jenn (she/her):
It can take over my life. I just appreciated what you said. I wanted to reflect that back, that that is a challenge. It’s a constant challenge. I think a lot of people can relate to that. As soon as you said, I was like, ooh, I relate to that.
Chavonne (she/her):
You also inspire me in terms of being able to prioritize you and doing things for yourself, even when there’s been a lot of change in your life this year.
Jenn (she/her):
That’s right. You tell them. That’s exactly right. A lot.
Chavonne (she/her):
Even in the midst as we were talking about this joyful time for you, even when things are joyful, it’s hard to slow down for yourself. I’m really proud of you for being able to do that. I don’t love that COVID had to have a part of that, but also before that you were able to.
Jenn (she/her):
That’s okay.
Chavonne (she/her):
Catching up on some naps.
Jenn (she/her):
I figured the change of having kiddos around would. I have been in a very privileged bubble with no children for quite some time, the whole time until now, so it’s okay.
Chavonne (she/her):
As much as I love them, kids are gross, so it was going to happen.
Jenn (she/her):
They’re hugging on you. Here, take this sucker out of my mouth, put it in your mouth.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yes. Let me sneeze on your eyeball. Yeah, just all the things. Where was that hand before you touched me?
Jenn (she/her):
It is all worth this phrase, which is a phrase I’ve been getting from my youngest nibling every time I see them. “Auntie Jenn, you’re back.” I could have been gone for one minute. I could have not seen them since yesterday.
Chavonne (she/her):
Wow.
Jenn (she/her):
That’s been amazing.
Chavonne (she/her):
That’s worth it. That’s absolutely worth it. Awesome. Yeah, definitely.
Jenn (she/her):
They’re safe, and that’s what matters to me.
Chavonne (she/her):
Absolutely.
Jenn (she/her):
Yeah. Any other thoughts on rest and challenges and looking forward?
Chavonne (she/her):
I opened my group practice this year and I love it. It’s a dream come true to me.
Jenn (she/her):
Wholesale New Mexico, wholesalenm.com. We’ll put it in the show notes.
Chavonne (she/her):
Thank you. I cry all the time because it’s such a dream. I’m dealing with my own kind of finding the balance between how much joy it brings me and also not feeling like I can stop. I’m trying to, which we’ll talk about a little bit about slowing down in the future, but there’s no way I’m taking six weeks off this year. I know that.
Jenn (she/her):
Yep. I also will not be doing that. I will be taking holiday weeks off.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yes.
Jenn (she/her):
Which I never do that either, so that feels something.
Chavonne (she/her):
That’s good. Hey, progress. Look at us growing.
Jenn (she/her):
It’s progress.
Chavonne (she/her):
We’ve made it a whole year.
Jenn (she/her):
It’s like that spiraling aspect of growth. It doesn’t have to be this rocket ship. It’s okay if it’s the spiral.
Chavonne (she/her):
I put it in the employee handbook that I will be taking time off and I encourage you to do the same. One of my new employees read it and asked me, but I was like, oh, I’m not doing that. We might burst into flames. No. Just trying to find some balance around that. I decided I am taking the entire week off between Christmas and New Years. Hoping to find some space in addition to that and trying to, I was thinking about something else I was going to try to do, and I can’t remember what it is. Just trying to find, I am trying not to work on weekends, things like that. That’s a challenge.
The challenge of how exciting this is for me versus I can’t burn out because now I have people depending on me to remember to do things so they can pay their bills. Just trying to find that balance. It’s a challenge. It’s a welcome challenge. I think it’s interesting because I try to encourage everyone in my life to not give in as much as they can to productivity culture, and I’m right back in it so much faster than I expected to be. It’s a challenge.
Jenn (she/her):
Well, it’s everywhere. It is a challenge. It’s everywhere.
Chavonne (she/her):
It’s everywhere.
Jenn (she/her):
It’s like, oh, here’s another invitation. Would you like to accept? Yeah.
Chavonne (she/her):
I sure would.
[13:14]
Jenn (she/her):
Yeah. That’s a great segue into the next question we’re going to explore, which is in our work, in our personal lives, starting an agency, future group practice dreams for Jenn, possibilities of teaching people in the future that we’re talking about. All the things. More podcasting, all the stuff we’re talking about, and it’s capability and capacity.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yes.
Jenn (she/her):
Wait, are those the same word?
Chavonne (she/her):
No.
Jenn (she/her):
No. They’re not. I just said them backwards from how I wrote them. Okay. Sorry. Confused myself. Taking Paxlovid for COVID, I cannot take my ADHD medication. Enjoy how my brain is today everyone.
Chavonne (she/her):
Welcome.
Jenn (she/her):
Capacity and capability. We have touched on this a lot this season, and you and I, the two of us have talked about this a lot. I kind of summarized it as the myth of catching up. Something that I love that you and I do together is when we can’t do a particular recording, interview, any backend stuff, we just are like, let’s move it. Because it’s our podcast and we’re allowed to do that.
Chavonne (she/her):
That’s right.
Jenn (she/her):
What’s the point of doing something that brings us so much joy if we can’t honor our capacity and our capability?
Chavonne (she/her):
Absolutely.
Jenn (she/her):
Sometimes we have the capacity for something, but we haven’t on other days, so why use it on this day? That sort of thing. There is really no catching up. There’s just a new word to have with each other. Oh, let’s do this. Like recording this interview. We could not do it on multiple occasions for multiple reasons. We’re just two human beings who are like, okay, let’s just figure out when we’re going to do it, and that’s when we’re going to do it. It’s no big deal. Who cares that it’s in November? I don’t care. Do you care?
Chavonne (she/her):
I don’t. No, not at all.
Jenn (she/her):
It’s our podcast. It feels good that it’s just here. You and I are always very clear and direct with each other, which I love. It’s so kind and it filters into other areas of my life. Just because I have the capacity to do something. I’m not busy doing anything that other people might consider busy, but what if I’m busy relaxing?
Chavonne (she/her):
Yes.
Jenn (she/her):
What if I’m busy being quiet? What if I’m busy taking a nap? What if I’m busy catching up on television?
Chavonne (she/her):
Yes. Absolutely.
Jenn (she/her):
It’s actually up to each of us. We’ve been exploring that a lot. It’s been more about capacity and less about capability. Capability is a really simple conversation. I’m not capable. Okay, great. Let’s move it. Capacity is like, well, I could, but I don’t want to, or I can’t.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yes.
Jenn (she/her):
Can we move it? I’ve actually found that really refreshing between us. Even the way this season, so the third season in 2023, the way that it’s like, what if we move some interviews to next year? Because we’re really set us up for being exhausted in November. Those sorts of things. It just is nice to release those things. Earlier in that question, we were talking about letting go, letting things be. It feels like it’s here as well. What if there isn’t anything to catch up on? What if we just decide newly when we’re going to do it and we just move on? That’s the space we’ve been holding and I’ve been loving that for us. I’m curious how that space has felt for you.
Chavonne (she/her):
It’s been such a gift, like you said, it’s helped. It’s expanded into other aspects of my life. I can sign up for all the things. That doesn’t mean I can do all the things. I think that it’s funny, I was listening to the last episode that we recorded with Fawn and Lisa, and you were like, “We’re all unemployable.” I was like, we actually are. Who’s telling us that we need to keep going at this pace? That’s what was going through my head when I was listening to you talking about it. Trying to keep that in mind of capacity versus capability has been huge for me. There is no such thing as catching up. Because even if I felt caught up, I would be making more shit up to do.
Jenn (she/her):
Yeah, exactly.
Chavonne (she/her):
I would just make some more shit up to do. You must be too unproductive. That’s not true. I really appreciate that, and I think having this process with you always is one of the true joys of my life in so many ways. I mean, just all the ways. It’s helping me be more present in other aspects of my life as well. It’s helped me realize, I think that’s a part of being socialized as fem, being socialized in all kinds of ways, is that we feel like we have to, and I don’t want to speak for all people socialized as fem, but a good number that I know feel responsible for not making people upset. You have to be willing to say yes and do this and this and this and this until you break yourself.
Jenn (she/her):
Yeah, care taking. [inaudible].
Chavonne (she/her):
Yeah. Care taking. That has helped me realize I don’t have to do that for every. I don’t have to do it with you. I never did, but I didn’t know that, not because of you. Just because I didn’t believe it.
Jenn (she/her):
You nor I would let each other do that. I know that we wouldn’t. I’d be like, why are you trying to do that right now?
Chavonne (she/her):
What are you doing right now?
Jenn (she/her):
This is a lot of pressure. Why are you doing that?
Chavonne (she/her):
You’re flying in from out of town and you want to record 10 minutes later. I don’t think we’re doing that.
Jenn (she/her):
Yeah. That was one of the schedules. You were like, “I’m just going to go ahead and say no.”
Chavonne (she/her):
Yeah. I’m going to cancel this for us.
Jenn (she/her):
I was like, oh, no.
Chavonne (she/her):
It’s reminded me I don’t have to be this go-go-go person in real life. I mean other aspects of real life, other aspects of life. I think that it felt like such a release to say we can’t keep going at this pace for the podcast. I think we were flirting with group practice and expanding for four years it feels like. We haven’t even known each other for four years, but you know what I mean.
Jenn (she/her):
Almost.
Chavonne (she/her):
Almost, and once it actually started happening, we’re like, wait, we have to slow down. That was great.
Jenn (she/her):
Yeah.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yeah.
Jenn (she/her):
Yeah, and thank you to those future guests of ours who were like, “Listen, this sounds really honest and human.”
Chavonne (she/her):
Yes. Thank you for your considerations.
Jenn (she/her):
“See you in 2024.” Thank you to them for that.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yeah.
Jenn (she/her):
Something that you were just giving a nod to is, I guess one of my favorite phrases of the year, and I can’t remember where this was explored in the podcast but I can’t stop thinking about it. I honestly can’t remember where, but it was whose energy is this? I think it might have been Mikey, now that I say the phrase.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yeah. Okay.
Jenn (she/her):
My current unmedicated brain cannot be sure.
Chavonne (she/her):
I think you’re right though.
Jenn (she/her):
Whose energy is this? Whose energy is it to say that we need to catch up? It’s not my energy.
Chavonne (she/her):
No.
Jenn (she/her):
I talk about this with clients all the time, especially new clients. Three meals and three snacks is a capitalistic ideal. That is eat before you go to work so you’re nourished to work. Eat in the middle of the day because you need to work in the afternoon. Eat when you’re home so you’re ready to sleep so that you can be ready for work the next day.
Chavonne (she/her):
Oh, wow.
Jenn (she/her):
It is so oriented around a productive schedule. I don’t know. This has been the year, and you’ll have to tell me what you think, where I follow my own advice. I think I’m realizing that right now. That’s actually been the theme of the year, because I am like, but I’m hungry now, but I’m not hungry now. This fall is the first time I’ve ever given myself a true lunch break. It started this summer. I mean, my life got a little topsy-turvy, but I’ve had a lunch break at the same time every day. Not even just I have a break in my day, but every day I have a lunch break.
Chavonne (she/her):
Wow. Yeah. I’m one of those.
Jenn (she/her):
Nerd on another. It’s like I’m following my own advice. That’s what I would suggest to someone else. What if you have an actual lunch break and you use it for lunch and rest? I’m like, oh, look at me, I can do that too. Thanks to great therapy support, because that idea was not mine. Just following my own advice. I can’t tell if it’s that I have a deeper connection with my body and that makes me trust that advice more, or I’m doing more intentional care tasks for myself, like restful care tasks that it just goes along with that level of respect or not.
I’ve had a lot of challenges taking my own advice in the past. I’ve just said stuff and didn’t do those things, but that’s shifted. I would actually credit our adventures on this podcast, because I listen to every episode and I really hear what I have to say and I’m like, “Oh, Jenn, I like what you said.” I like what you say. I like what our guests say. There’s a lot to absorb.
Chavonne (she/her):
I like what you’re saying.
Jenn (she/her):
Humble brag, because it’s nice to appreciate what we bring to something.
Chavonne (she/her):
Absolutely.
Jenn (she/her):
I think that I’m sitting in that spot. I wonder how that feels for you.
Chavonne (she/her):
I completely, woo.
Jenn (she/her):
I mean, not 100%.
Chavonne (she/her):
It hadn’t hit that way until you said that.
Jenn (she/her):
It’s not perfect.
Chavonne (she/her):
Oh, no. I’m definitely not hydrating the way I like to talk about. I’m working on it.
Jenn (she/her):
I am right now, because I have COVID, but I don’t think on a regular day I am.
Chavonne (she/her):
Oh, gosh. No. It hadn’t hit that way until you said it. I’m very much trying to do the things that I talk about all the time. I’m taking my own advice about the way I am approaching work. I can’t tell my staff take some freaking time off if I’m not taking it myself. I’m trying to practice what I preach, I guess. I’m definitely taking my own advice about slowing down. There’s definitely been some calls for slowing down, especially over the summer when I was going too hard, too fast. That is really sitting pretty heavily in a good way right now. I hadn’t even thought about it.
Jenn (she/her):
Yeah. I’m going to think about that.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yeah. I love it.
Jenn (she/her):
That’s great.
Chavonne (she/her):
Yeah.
Jenn (she/her):
We’re keeping it short today. We only have one other little thing that we’re doing, which is we’re looking forward. Wait, where is it? Hold on for a scroll. We’re scrolling. Oh, there it is on the bottom. Oh, sorry, I said it.
Chavonne (she/her):
I was like, hold on.
Jenn (she/her):
I found it, and I was early.
[23:39]
Chavonne (she/her):
Okay. Like Jenn said, we have a short podcast episode today, just a few quick we’ll see you next year. I’m really pumped about the way this is going down. Next year what are we looking forward to? For next year we’re going to keep doing some deep dives. We have some people that are coming back.
Jenn (she/her):
Yes, who so graciously moved to season four. We can’t wait to join them there.
Chavonne (she/her):
Graciously moved to season four because we just needed this and I’m so proud of us for saying it out loud and then following through with it. I am so proud of us.
Jenn (she/her):
Me too.
Chavonne (she/her):
I cannot say that any more.
Jenn (she/her):
It’s making me sweaty to remember it, but I’m really proud of it. I’m like, oh, my gosh, that was really hard.
Chavonne (she/her):
I was so sweaty asking it. I was like, she’s going to think I’m going to leave her and I’m never going to leave her, but I can’t do this.
Jenn (she/her):
I’m like, let’s do it. Yeah.
Chavonne (she/her):
I’m falling apart on the inside, and the outside. Just falling apart everywhere. Probably having some new people on. We haven’t planned it.
Jenn (she/her):
Yes.
Chavonne (she/her):
Normally, we would have had a plan by now, so that feels very different.
Jenn (she/her):
Yeah. We would have planned it in September, so we’ll plan it sometime later. Our families are going to spend Thanksgiving together.
Chavonne (she/her):
Excited. Yeah.
Jenn (she/her):
We get to be in person.
Chavonne (she/her):
Jenn has graciously accepted my family into hers and vice versa, I will say also. Jenn is one of my true soulmates. I’m very excited to spend holidays with you. Absolutely.
Jenn (she/her):
Yeah. We’re going to do holidays. We’re going to do deep dives, new embodiment journeys with new people. I have a list somewhere that I think I’ve even texted you, and I also wrote it somewhere, so I will find that whenever we’re going to discuss this, and do our body doubling and other business stuff we’re going to sit together and do. We just can’t wait to see you in season four. Thanks for joining us this season.
Chavonne (she/her):
Can’t wait to you. Thank you so much for joining us this season.
Jenn (she/her):
Bye.
Chavonne (she/her):
Bye.
Jenn: Thank you for listening to Season 3 of the Embodiment for the Rest of Us podcast. Episodes will be published every two weeks-ish (let’s be real!) wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also find the podcast at our website, EmbodimentForTheRestOfUs.com.
Chavonne: And follow us on social media, on both Twitter @EmbodimentUs and on Instagram @EmbodimentForTheRestOfUs. We look forward to being with you again next time in this evolving conversation.