Chavonne McClay (00:00:13):
Hello there. I’m Chavonne McCLay, she/her.
Jennifer Jackson (00:00:16):
And I’m Jen Jackson, she/her.
Chavonne McClay (00:00:19):
And this is Embodiment for The Rest Of Us, a podcast series exploring topics within intersections that exist in fat liberation.
Jennifer Jackson (00:00:26):
In this show, we interview professionals and those with lived experience alike to learn how they’re affecting radical change and how we can all make this world a safer place for those living in larger bodies and in marginalized spaces.
Chavonne McClay (00:00:41):
Captions and content warnings are provided in the show notes for each episode, including specific timestamps so that you can skip triggering content any time that feels supported to you. This podcast is representation of our co-host and guest experiences and may not be reflected with yours. These conversations are not medical advice and are not a substitute for mental health or nutrition support.
Jennifer Jackson (00:01:04):
In addition, the conversations held here are not exhausted in scope or breadth. These topics, these perspectives are not complete and are always in process. These are just the highlights, just like posts on social media or any other podcast. This is just a glimpse. We are always interested in any feedback on this process. If something needs to be addressed, you can email us at listener, L I S T E N E R and embodiment for the rest of us.com. And now for today’s episode.
Jennifer Jackson (00:01:38):
Hi, there. Last time you went deep into our embodiment journey.
Chavonne McClay (00:01:44):
That was raw and also really, really necessary and scary.
Jennifer Jackson (00:01:50):
Ooh, necescary, that’s one of my favorite words or phrases or words that I say or things I say all the time. Yes, love it. Necescary.
Chavonne McClay (00:01:58):
I love it too. And I’m so glad that you introduced it to my life. I use it all the time now. Today, we want to continue this deep dive into our title and our podcast. First up, let’s talk about the word and concept of embodiment, both in how it can be powerful and how it can be limiting. Let’s dig into the nuances of this a little more. Jen, I know you have a lot to think and say about that.
Jennifer Jackson (00:02:23):
I have a lot to say about a lot of things, this included. So when I think of embodiment, I first go to thinking about how these concepts were introduced to me and things that I’ve said a lot about embodiment, including some that I think I’d like to adjust and probably never say again. The first one is I was introduced to this as embodiment, being thinking below the neck or feeling below the neck. And I’ve done a lot of processing about this and really thinking about how ableist that can be, that phrase that to be embodied means that you have to be able to do something else, whereas embodiment really is about being not doing. I’ve been thinking about this a lot and definitely going to come up with something new to say about this.
Jennifer Jackson (00:03:15):
So in thinking about embodiment, it also makes me think about where I learned about the concept, who I’ve heard talking about it, and also just ways in which we talk about it that aren’t necessarily even as a concept of talking about it accessible to everyone. So one of the first things that I have said for a long time since I’ve learned about this that I’m revising right now, is thinking or feeling below the neck. Which is really signifying that we’ve all been in our heads about it. But when we think about non-dualism, that our body is our mind and our mind is our body. Something is already happening there and below the neck can feel very ableist or I think is not just feel, but is very able because that may not be accessible to everyone.
Chavonne McClay (00:03:59):
Absolutely. It’s funny, when you first introduced this definition to me, obviously the ableism that we talked about makes a lot of sense as well. But something I thought about as a black woman is, like I said before, I really like the fact that I have natural hair, but I also have at times struggled with how to take care of it, how to present myself with it. When I thought of from the neck up, I was like, well, from the neck up to my forehead.
Chavonne McClay (00:04:29):
So I think there’s the conversation that a lot of black people have about how they present themselves in terms of their hair. With the CROWN Act being enacted just last year in New York, I think that quite often black women and femmes especially, have to make the decision of how they’re going to present themselves to the world in terms of their hair. And I know at least for me, don’t want to speak for everyone. Of course, I had to make a decision about how I was perceived and so didn’t always feel embodied in terms of my hair until I’d done some hard thinking about it. So that’s what I thought about when you said from the neck up.
Jennifer Jackson (00:05:16):
So whether we say above or below when we’re talking about a place in the body and trying to make this distinction as some sort of analogy of how to be embodied. In other words, how to be in our bodies. We’re leaving people out in this conversation.
Chavonne McClay (00:05:29):
Yeah, [inaudible 00:05:30], you’re right.
Jennifer Jackson (00:05:34):
That’s okay. And there’s another definition that I’ve heard. If you breathe and if you have a shadow that you can be embodied. And I can think of examples where someone cannot breathe on their own and they cannot leave their house. So how are they supposed to have a shadow? Which is not to say there’s anything “wrong” with these definitions. If people think, oh, this is the one that resonates with me. I get this is not how I am embodied. And I would like to be that way.
Chavonne McClay (00:06:00):
Jennifer Jackson (00:06:01):
But I’m really trying to point out here is when you have ability, when that comes into play here, it’s one of the things very rarely considered in these definitions. People with disabilities seen or unseen or often left out of these conversations. And it always comes up for me for embodiment because there is a lot more nuance to have in this conversation. There’s a lot more expansive conversation to have about this and a lot more personal conversation to have about this. There are lots of books written about this. There are theories. The main one is the developmental theory of embodiment by [inaudible 00:06:38], I think I said that correctly, which is all about positive embodiment. So that’s the journey.
Jennifer Jackson (00:06:44):
So even the word positive there when we’re thinking about ability, when we’re thinking about chronic illness, when we’re thinking about racism and perception by society. When we’re thinking about productivity and a patriarchal structure that we live in, all these things like positive may not be the word either. So that kind of sits with me and in eating disorder work where I do nutrition rehabilitation and nutrition therapy, there is an embodied self model by Catherine Cook Cottone that talks about three ways in which we can consider embodiment, which is something I really want to sit with as we have conversations with guests.
Jennifer Jackson (00:07:30):
This is a model that’s bringing someone through recovery and towards something that’s more them. And it involves multiple levels. And that is an individual level, which is the brain and the body are the same. It’s lived experience, it’s what we’ve internalized. You could think of lots of isms that we internalized that could be part of this conversation. And it’s also our perception of things outside of us. So embodiment seems like it’s very simple in those first kind of descriptions that we were talking about, but it’s actually quite complicated because that’s only one at these levels. And also what is going on around us in a sociology kind of way. Our social structures, which is relationships, just like who’s in our household, who’s around us, what is our culture, self identified and otherwise. What power structures and influences are there on us and all of that. And then there’s something that’s a combination of the two.
Jennifer Jackson (00:08:24):
So psychosocial and that is that we don’t exist in a vacuum and therefore it’s challenging to be non-dual. In other words that we can recognize the brain is the body and the body is the brain in an awareness kind of way. And as I say that, anytime I bring up a structure, anytime I think about that, my brain next goes to thinking about how can I disrupt or dismantle this? Who does it not work for? Who is it created by and who is that really applied to? How privileged do you have to be to have something be boiled down to something that feels simple? Even though it feels more complicated in those first definitions, it’s still rather simple thinking about being a person in the world. So embodiment really is being in the body, not doing with the body, but being in the body.
Jennifer Jackson (00:09:13):
It’s a step before doing. And also it doesn’t feel like we can get there in our current society, no matter what your privilege level is. It’s a challenge just having non-judgmental self-awareness, one of the most basic forms of this. Just being with yourself and not judging it can feel really not possible in a lot of situations. So I’m really interested in exploring this embodiment concept some more. And just as you said, as you were asking me to talk about this, that it’s like what are the nuances of it and who doesn’t it work for? Where does it fail? Where does it not connect with people? And how can we think about ways in which it can’t, but I’m excited for that.
Chavonne McClay (00:09:57):
Wow. Oh, this is such a good place to start. I’m so excited. I really love the idea. Love not the idea, the truth of how embodiment is being within the body, being in the body. And it has to be a step before doing.
Jennifer Jackson (00:10:13):
As I was just listening to you reflect that for a second, it was really making me think about my phrasing even in what I just said and how embodiment is something that I find is said by thin white women as if it’s so simple to just be embodied. We really have the, okay, I’m going to say danger. I wasn’t going to, but now I’m going to. The danger of switching into something that’s very much a toxic positivity space. I can even see it as a spiritual bypassing place where it seems so simple to be embodied. Why don’t you just be in your body is just like, why aren’t you just mindful instead of mindless? We have some sort of switch that on and off that just because it’s hard doesn’t mean we don’t have the willpower to overcome it. Very bootstraps. Like something we said in the last episode in thinking about this, it’s oversimplified and it really isn’t meant for all of us. It has the appearance of being for all of us, and yet it is not. So I was really thinking about that as you were reflecting.
Chavonne McClay (00:11:17):
And you actually got to the point I was trying to get to and I was struggling to get to, when I think of what you said, it’s being in your body instead of doing. I think that’s where it feels difficult. That’s where there is that aspect of privilege, because I have the privilege to just be right. I have the mental space, I have the emotional space, the physical space, but all of this space that allows me to do it makes me think of the idea of doing like, I’m going to do some self-care. I’m going to do embodiment. And finding even the willingness and the awareness to just be is really difficult. I think that’s why our society is so go, go, go. Cause the idea of stopping and being is terrifying in some ways.
Jennifer Jackson (00:12:04):
And how safe does it feel or not? To be embodied, is a really important thing to explore. To be careful about the pace, if we’re the ones encouraging embodiment of other people, and also with ourselves to discern the boundaries around how we’d like to be embodied. Because it’s actually just as valid to not be embodied, to be protected in a certain way that doesn’t feel embodied as it would be to be embodied depending on what the moment, situation or what your discernment calls for.
Chavonne McClay (00:12:37):
Absolutely. I completely agree. Yeah.
Jennifer Jackson (00:12:38):
Oh, this is fascinating. I live for this. And how about for you? What really sticks out for you about embodiment?
Chavonne McClay (00:12:46):
Yeah, thank you. We obviously talked a lot about this as we came up with the title for the podcast. I did some research and looked up some ideas of what embodiment is, and I would say there are a few out there. Like you, I don’t want to say anything’s wrong. Some sat with me in different ways. One that I read that I really, really liked was by a psychotherapist named Dr. Anne Sangeeta Sahi, which her definition is it means to engage oneself in the world through the experiences we feel in our body, through our body, and perceive through our body. So I really, really love that one. I guess the only thing that doesn’t feel completely supportive in that definition is something that you just spoke to. Sometimes it’s more protected to be disembodied.
Chavonne McClay (00:13:42):
When I think about experiencing this world through my body, sometimes that’s not safe. Sometimes not having this experience within your body can be a trauma response. Maybe that’s the way that you are protecting yourself in the moment of the trauma and from that moment forward. I think it also speaks to some ableism as well. Maybe you aren’t as able to have this physical experience of the world, which is a huge part of embodiment. I really like that definition. It just falls short a teeny bit for me. But it’s one that I keep coming back to because I love that it speaks to feeling it in body through body and then perceived through body, which is very different than just experiencing. It’s the perception of how it’s perceived through your body as well. I saw some other definitions online. I Googled, obviously the most basic one was just Webster’s definition, which is the state of making perceptible.
Chavonne McClay (00:14:48):
So when I think about it it’s the ability to make yourself perceptible to yourself to other people. So it doesn’t exactly get to the nuance of it because it’s very basic definition, but still it makes sense as a place to start. Another one I read was a yoga collective open floor movement practice, and it’s the art of being present in our body as we experience life. I really like that one too. That one sits kind of nicely for me, just as I said a moment ago, just being, not doing, just. So being present and body. But as I thought about this and did a lot more exploration, something that kept coming to mind for me is that embodiment is closer to your relationship with and within the world. And I think that this is probably a privileged thing as well. If you have the ability to think about what embodiment is and how you’re going to work on your embodiment, I think that can also preclude you from feeling embodied.
Chavonne McClay (00:15:55):
I think that embodiment has to have less focus on what the societal expectations are. Like this is what embodiment is. We’re all embodied, let’s all be embodied. This is what it looks like. And also, which goes along with both knowledge and also past experiences. So I think that, at least for me, I think for a good number of people, embodiment is not just about integrating all the chevron’s or chevron’s experiences, but just being present now. Yeah, it’s keeping some of that context, but it’s also just being present now, which plays into mindfulness a lot for me. I don’t think you can think yourself into embodiment, I guess is what I’m trying to get to. You can explore it intellectually, which I’ve done, but you have to be able to step back from your learning and your experience in the world and just, be.
Chavonne McClay (00:16:51):
So yeah, that’s kind of where I’m coming from. When I think of embodiment. When we first started talking about this, I think you and I, we, in our many meetings, many conversations about this said, “Okay, go define embodiment and then come back.” And my definition was inter, and I say it every once in a while, integrating every aspect of myself. And that doesn’t sit well with me because I mean, obviously integration is a good thing in so many ways. But when I think of integration, I think of integrating in a societal way, in a governmental way, different people from different cultures into the mainstream. It’s that assimilation, and I don’t love that. So that’s why I didn’t want to sit with that one. That’s why I landed that one, because I felt like it needed to be more than that. So that’s kind of where I’m coming from when I think of embodiment.
Jennifer Jackson (00:17:44):
Ooh. Oh, my gosh. Okay. So that was so rich. So I’m going to try to make my brain slow down right now so that I could show you what’s going on for me over here, which is I’m going to stick to two things, I think. The idea of perception and who is perceived in just a societal way. If someone was going by behind a reporter in the field and someone’s walking behind them, what do people think of that particular person? That level of perception. Do they even notice they went by? It makes me think of disembodied or beheaded fat bodies when they never have clothes that fit right and you never see their face, and you usually see them doing activities that would be stereotypically not okay, according to our society that those fat people would be doing.
Jennifer Jackson (00:18:39):
Perception is a lot about who gets to have power and permission, who probably shouldn’t have that, but who generally gets that without anyone really thinking about it. And when you were talking about that, you can’t really think your way into embodiment. That really struck me because it seems like all of the conversations about healing of any kind, about being involved, words like resilience. I just texted you yesterday. I was like, “I’m saying resilience a lot.” And I’m like, “Oh, I have such an interesting dynamic with this. I don’t always agree with myself.” And I read somewhere that it’s really about thriving. Embodiment very much about thriving, but thriving is something that’s not as simple as snapping a finger. It’s like who’s allowed to thrive? The most privilege. And just thinking about not trying to think your way through it. And you said mindfulness.
Jennifer Jackson (00:19:34):
It really made me think of presence, not just perception, but presence with oneself without judgment, being a witness of oneself, which we’ve talked about before. And if we are going to be present with ourselves and not judging, we have to be able to be kind to ourselves. And that’s one of the things that I think can be so not possible. It’s not as simple as being… It’s like someone’s not relaxed and you’re like, “Just relax.” Someone’s not being kind to themselves and you’re like, “Just be kind.” We have this notion, and I say we, because I really feel like white women are a real problem in this language and what they’re “allowed to say” that no one else is allowed to say.
Jennifer Jackson (00:20:18):
It really makes me want to dig into this and think about it, because things are not as simple as manifestation. So Rachel Cargle comes to mind every time I think about manifestation now. Or she has a graphic that was commissioned that says something that she says frequently, which is, did you manifest it or is it just your white privilege? Is really showing parallel to this conversation about embodiment. Are you embodied or do you just have body privilege?
Chavonne McClay (00:20:49):
Jennifer Jackson (00:20:51):
And when people with body privilege are, which would include me. So I’m in a larger body, however, I’m in a white body. There’s elements of both here. I say, oh, let’s just have you be embodied. I have some sort of say or control and that kind of thing just doesn’t feel like the right way to go about this. It really feels like individual conversations. What do people need? What do groups of people need? What do you marginalize and oppressed individuals need? There’s a saying in public health, but I’ve actually never liked, which is a voice for the voiceless, for the underserved and the underrepresented. But they have a voice. Just no one’s listening. People are actively not listening in many cases.
Jennifer Jackson (00:21:32):
Their voices are being oppressed as part of being oppressed and marginalized is their voice is being quieted and pushed out of the main area of listening, by people with privilege who would like to have power over them. So just thinking about all that, just realizing how complex embodiment is. And not only can we not think our way through it or to it, like you said, but also it feels like there are barriers. There are things that we may not have consciously noticed or in the way each of us as individuals. And it feels connected to everything because being in this body is connected to everything that we do. Kind of sitting with all that as we were talking.
Chavonne McClay (00:22:16):
Yeah. So two things. This is what we do, we go back and forth, all day. But one thing that just came to mind with what you just said is, I don’t want to say that you can’t intellectualize embodiment so that it feels like it’s precluding someone, precluding me from thinking about it. I just don’t want it… It’s very easy for me to intellectualize things so that I don’t have to face things on an emotional level. It’s just a reminder, at least for me, that I can’t think my way into embodiment. I do want to think about it. Obviously. I need to think about what’s my embodiment practice, how my practice, how am I working toward it? But I can’t just get it to, I will write about it. I will journal about it for three days straight and then I’ll be embodied. There has to be some action that goes with it, I guess is what kind of came to me.
Jennifer Jackson (00:23:01):
A practice is what I heard about yourself.
Chavonne McClay (00:23:02):
Yes, absolutely. And another thing you said about those disembodied fat bodies that are shown doing the stereotypical fat people things, which is bull shit and I hate it. It makes me super cranky is it made me think of revolutionary. I find the idea of embodiment really revolutionary for fat bodies, because we’re always being told you have, what right do you have to be who you are to exist within your body and not apologize for it every time that you interact with yourself or the world. So it just feels really revolutionary to think of it that way.
Jennifer Jackson (00:23:39):
That made me think of violence. Whenever I think… Well, also the disembodied images makes me think that’s so violent. What a violence choice.
Chavonne McClay (00:23:49):
Jennifer Jackson (00:23:50):
Thinking of violence also makes me think of masking and ways in which we are not genuinely showing what we would like to do or to be to other people, and what area in which we feel like we can be perceived. Just thinking about protection, really specifically showing up in a particular way that we have not, that’s protective and helpful. And we have a lot of reasons to do it and can really also not be able to coexist with embodiments. And something you were saying earlier about the amount of space or time that we might have the privilege to even consider this to practice. We have to be in order to be like, maybe we don’t even know what that feels like. When we want more compassion in our lives, often the thing that we have to do is be more compassionate.
Jennifer Jackson (00:24:43):
It’s not necessarily the thing we’d like to do, be the first person to do that, to feel so oppressed and marginalized. So why would we be the ones to have the practice of embodiment? Why can’t people just leave us alone? It’s a real challenging spot in, it would be so understandable to me to be the victim in that moment. I mean, to really lean into that and just not even go for embodiment, because it may feel like an insurmountable experience. Something that’s not available, something, I mean for anyone of any privilege level, much less someone who may not have other abilities. Sometimes it’s a literal surmounting. You have to go do something and you may not be able to for whatever reason. So just sitting with that too. Fascinating.
Chavonne McClay (00:25:29):
This is a really rich conversation. I feel like we can talk about this for hours, even more hours than we already have.
Jennifer Jackson (00:25:35):
Yeah. Even more hours.
Chavonne McClay (00:25:42):
So now that we’ve shared about embodiment, let’s expand this to who really gets left out of this conversation, something that we’ve labeled the rest of us. This is something that Jen and I have talked about a lot, because it feels like the most important part of these conversations. Who’s allowed to be embodied, who isn’t? What really stands out for you about this, Jen?
Jennifer Jackson (00:26:05):
That’s a really good question. Makes you want to take a deep sigh, before I begin the potential of the heaviness of some of my answers. I think that, first off, what I would think about is anyone who may have a challenge being embodied, whatever that is. Someone not being able to or being stopped by someone else or a structure or a system. And that not naming or considering these through acknowledgements and accommodations, creating space in which someone can be uniquely embodied is a route to microaggression. When I think of rest of us, I actually think of microaggression a lot. I’m going to talk about some larger things like groups of people and isms and things like that. When I first think about it though, microaggression are the things that we’re conditioned to do to each other that… I can only speak for myself here, many of the things that I’ve now realized are microaggressions, including about bodies to my own clients, was something that I was taught in my education towards being a dietician, including master of public health.
Jennifer Jackson (00:27:16):
My degree where it’s like, who is to blame for this? Is willpower something that’s available to them? And other things that are zooming way out and not asking the person, what do you need? Microaggressions also include things like, you can’t have Z until you’ve gone through X and Y, keeping comes to mind. The rest of us are really those that the isms, the stigmas, the biases and just society and the way our society is structured leaves out of the conversation. So earlier I mentioned voice for the voiceless. So things in that small little phrase, how it really speaks to how people don’t have a choice, that the choices that made for them feels like the rest of us, whatever that would mean to someone. I also think about research and who gets to do research and who research is done on. It’s a lot of privileged people. There’s a lot of research done on white men. Depending on the topic, there also can be research done on white women, but it just still tends to be white men doing the research and also being researched on.
Jennifer Jackson (00:28:30):
And this becomes what’s known as evidence-based. And something that you and I have talked about before, this is a newer revelation for me. I think I read this actually in a random tweet. I don’t think this came from my own head. That is lived experience and more lived experience and adding other people’s lived experience when combined and analyzed and confounders removed and “outliers,” talk about marginalization, is combined to make evidence-based research. What a dietician is supposed to use in my practice or any dietician is actually a combination of lived experiences that have been filtered in some ways. So lived experience is often kept out of conversations. So lived experience feels like rest of us. And also we don’t really say out loud very much in my field or any field, that I can really think about except for some pretty radical fields or fat politics that lived experience is what research is about. Every single lived experience is valid.
Jennifer Jackson (00:29:33):
Something we’ve talked about with embodiment, and I can’t remember if I said it right now, is validity. It’s valid to have a lived experience, but there’s a lot of things in our society in research and health, so the isms, healthism, that it has to look a very particular way. There’s a look. That there’s a thing to aspire to, which is very purest kind of language of offending towards something and all that kind of stuff. And also when we think about evidence-based research to come draw a little circle around this, it’s also, there’s a lot of other categories. So even in, like I said, outliers, confounders, so name sample, just taking some of them population who gets to decide what is equal to population. And it leaves out self-determination. The individuals did not get to choose, someone else chose. And this I think leads to a lot of harm. And it feels like deconstructing harm, thinking about being embodied, involved some really critical inquiry into what do we call evidence based? Because it creates a lot of marginalization and oppression just by the very nature of it.
Jennifer Jackson (00:30:47):
And also, it originally came about some of the original research as taking something that’s been known in a culture for thousands of years and putting it inside of the scientific method and coming up with the same conclusions, but calling that now the evidence, which values and invalidates the other experience.
Chavonne McClay (00:31:06):
Jennifer Jackson (00:31:06):
That feels really important. I hope I’m making sense. This all makes sense in my head, really detailed stuff. And then I think a lot about this article that was written in, I think I’ll have to find the article, put it in show notes, but it’s about the wellness industrial complex and something called the Elusory truth effect, which is that individuals in positions of giving healthcare. Their job is to prescribe, give healthcare, that there is an illusion of truth, that even they’re susceptible to that just because me, a dietician says something about food that that’s now “the truth.” There’s no need to look anything up. The expert idea of even the label of a dietician by the national organization, the all caps nutrition expert is the slogan. But that implies that we are to be listened to, even if we’re not saying something that makes sense.
Jennifer Jackson (00:32:04):
Even if we’re saying something that causes harm, even if we’re saying something that marginalizes and others. And we are susceptible to that in a way that we may not even notice that we’re doing that because it’s such a cultural norm inside of this field. It’s something I really wanted to make sure that I brought up here in the rest of us because it gives an illusion of who is allowed to be mainstream, who’s allowed to be called healthy. Who’s allowed to be the nutrition experts worth listening to. All part of the same illusion of truth. It makes me think of things like 10,000 steps from, so 10,000 steps in Japanese culture. The number of 10,000 has religious significance. It’s not about achieving health, it’s about creating a number for an ad campaign that matched a cultural value. So we’ve taken it over here in the United States and other places and said, “This is the amount you need to equal health.”
Jennifer Jackson (00:32:59):
But the original meaning isn’t actually about health. It’s about a religious significance, connecting to your culture. So not only is that appropriating another culture and not really understanding what’s going on, it’s also creating an illusion that the truth, the answer to achieving health can be whittled down to numbers like this 10,000 steps, there’s a lot of examples of this if you go into a lot of them. But that’s just my example for now. And I also, so the last thing I’m really thinking about is what’s in a name, not just of rest of us or embodiment, but also thinking about fatness. And even the phrase fat phobia, which is about a fear of fatness or that’d be the selling that out to say what the word means really lands as capitalizing on people’s fears. And also ableist, about people who have phobias that they cannot control and sits in both places for me. There’s another phrase, which I have no idea how to pronounce. It’s my first time ever saying it out loud, [inaudible 00:34:04]. Which takes away the fear part and it’s more about prejudices and things like that, about fatness.
Jennifer Jackson (00:34:17):
It really aligns more with where anti-fatness comes from, which is like anti-blackness. Which is eugenics, who is allowed to be here and those sorts of things. That term tends to go more with that. But all of these things come up when I think of the rest of us, because language is so important and I’m trying to be careful about language right now, but I was also getting into it, so I’m sure I haven’t been as careful as I was really hoping to. Just thinking about how we talk about things creates the rest of us, oppression and marginalization. And it’s not something that we are really… In the area of free speech. And right now a lot of contentious things, a lot of very opinionated people in a pandemic, what are we all allowed to say? And then just kind of stand in the “rightness” of, not even try to budge about it. Even if we’re harming people in that moment, even if we’re supposed to be reducing harm, those kinds of things.
Jennifer Jackson (00:35:15):
They all just kind of sit in this big…. I’m feeling like this is a big cloud of mess that creates the rest of us and we’re in this cloud. So it’s really hard to see and also very much harder to see outside of. So just really sitting with… Also, I guess the final thing I’ll say is this phrase, do no harm. I don’t think that’s a real reality about human beings. We cause harm.
Chavonne McClay (00:35:45):
Jennifer Jackson (00:35:47):
There’s a lot going on for us and in the world and it’s really about reducing harm. Repair, repair, repair, repair. I think that’s one of my favorite. Repair, repair, repair and things that are restorative or transformative. Something happened. How can it be restored into what it was before? Or something that feels like an element of healing or how can it be transformed? In other words, how can we learn and unlearn? How can we not stay static? How can we be dynamic? How can we be human beings? Feels like the real thing there. And that was my other long-winded thing. What do you think?
Chavonne McClay (00:36:28):
I loved your long-winded thing. Just keep talking. I love this. No, I have thoughts, but this is really… You asked earlier, am I making sense? And I was like, yeah, you’re making so much sense in my head feels like, whoa. It just like have the fireworks going off. Because it’s just really blowing my mind. I honestly hadn’t even thought of rest of us in terms of microaggressions. I guess in my mind I was thinking of these macroaggressions with these very large overarching ways of discrimination. Ways of marginalization, but it really can come down to these very… I’m not trying to minimalize it, but microaggressions. I wasn’t trying to make it sound like it was insignificant. Just microaggressions.
Jennifer Jackson (00:37:12):
Right. Between people. Not smaller, just between people.
Chavonne McClay (00:37:15):
Yes. And I love the idea of… And I know we’ve talked about it and we’ll definitely keep talking about it, especially with people that we interview, but the idea that evidence-based practice is really just the normalization and the validation of lived experience and who gets to decide that. And like you said, it’s this white males and it’s the marginalization of those who have lived experience, but it’s not seen as valid enough. Absolutely. It also makes me think of credentialism, which we’ll definitely be getting into because when I say… You’ve said it and I’ve definitely felt it in myself, who am I to say that I am the rest of us? Yes, I have some identities that make me more susceptible to marginalization and oppression, but I also have a good amount of privilege too. So who am I? Feel really aware of my privilege and using that privilege.
Chavonne McClay (00:38:18):
All of us have privilege in some way. I think it’s important to use that privilege to not only make sure people get a seat at the table, but to uproot the fucking table. Let’s just toss the table and create a table that feels right for us. Maybe not even a table. Maybe it’s… I don’t know. Now I’m just talking. Maybe it’s a nice carpet. I don’t know. But we’re going to… Using my privileges in way-
Jennifer Jackson (00:38:40):
Oh, like a seventies kind of, they always looked to me like well, but it’s like the sunken couch thing. Where you can just go and be comfortable and anyone can come in and go out as they want.
Chavonne McClay (00:38:51):
Yes. I had a sunken living room once and it was the coolest thing. I just felt like it was just, oh, it felt relaxing. I felt like I was in the salon. [inaudible 00:39:03] It was beautiful. It was a hundred years ago when I was in college. Anyway. But yeah, it definitely what you were speaking of definitely really drove home the idea that evidence-based practice is just containing lived experience in a box.
Jennifer Jackson (00:39:24):
Ooh. Yes. That. I don’t know what to say.
Chavonne McClay (00:39:27):
Jennifer Jackson (00:39:27):
Chavonne McClay (00:39:35):
Jennifer Jackson (00:39:39):
Aw, thank you so much for those reflections. I’m so excited to hear what you have to say about the rest of us. What would you like to share with us about that?
Chavonne McClay (00:39:47):
Yeah, so again, good old Google. I did some, just looking around at what other people said about the rest of us. When we first started though, I think our first definition was those living in larger bodies, at least the people that we were going to be speaking to and about and for, were those living in larger bodies and in marginalized bodies or otherwise othered. And that was a lot of others. So we had to change it.
Jennifer Jackson (00:40:14):
So many others.
Chavonne McClay (00:40:15):
Yeah, so many others. And I thought that while it was a good place to start, it didn’t really drive home the idea of oppression. It wasn’t… It was a lot more passive, I guess the definition is. And it needed to be like we are making sure that we are very clear about the fact that these people are not allowed to exist the way they need to exist or deserve to exist. So that was one of my thoughts. Of course, I looked at definitions again, and in the Oxford English Dictionary, the idea of othering is viewing or treating people or a group of people as intrinsically different from an alien to oneself. And again, that doesn’t drive it home enough either. I think that that’s, yeah, someone’s different. But there’s nothing else that’s kind of defined within that in terms of the mistreatment of people because of that.
Chavonne McClay (00:41:07):
The magazine that came out a few years ago, and there were four volumes of it called the Othering and Belonging magazine and what they described… I’m going to come back to othering a lot. I just like the term othering. It just makes so much sense was that marginalizing people is based on othering them because of a conscious or an unconscious assumption that they pose a threat to the favorite group. Which I really, really like because it puts onus back on the group, empowered. There’s a power dynamic in it. And I really like that. And it can show, obviously we know it shows up institutionally and policies and laws, it shows up on a one-to-one level. It shows up in all kinds of ways, economically, politically, socially, culturally, et cetera, et cetera. So that’s kind of what came to mind in terms of the rest of us.
Chavonne McClay (00:42:04):
I think that when I think about this, there can be a lot of things that play into it when people are trying to get their voices heard. Both that imposter syndrome, am I the rest of us enough? And also the suffering Olympics. That’s a terrible term. But I say it to my husband when we’re fighting about who has it harder in certain ways. Typically, when we’re parenting our children. Suffering Olympics, while I have it harder because of whatever. And I think that that can be a barrier as well in terms of uplifting the groups that need to be uplifted. That’s where I’m coming from on the rest of us.
Jennifer Jackson (00:42:46):
Oh, my goodness. So you also reminded me of the definition or just what we said about rest of us for the trailer for this podcast. I’m going to read that because I was hearing it in what you said, especially the very last part. Those living in larger bodies and in marginalized spaces or likewise blocked from defining their own existence. So the word block is sticking out to me here as well as the theme, what I think is the theme in what we both said, which is about who allows who? What allows who? How are we allowed? Just thinking about who has the audacity. So there’s this phrase caucasity, which I actually use for myself when I’m being ridiculous. I’m like, how could I have not noticed this? Oh, the caucasity, the audacity of a Caucasian or being white, in considering something as mine to choose about that has nothing to do with me.
Jennifer Jackson (00:43:45):
Something I think, so as a dietician could be very, very careful. Very, very careful about what I am trying to have as mine in that power dynamic. Thinking about the people in power needing to be the one to repair. This very restorative justice, the person doing the harm, the person with the power is the one who has the responsibility that really, I sit with this and think about this a lot. It’s how I process things with clients. They’re like, “I think I’d like to do better about this.” “I’d like to start my next session with repair.” I actually tell them that that’s what I’d like to do. I have one later this week actually, where I’m like, “I think last time that I did something, but I’d like to talk to you about three things.” I named the three things. And I said I’d like to start our session with repair.
Jennifer Jackson (00:44:30):
I also don’t want them to be… Oh, man, I don’t want to use this word that’s in my head. I don’t want them to be caught off guard. I was going to use an ableist phrase. Oh, these are hard to unlearn and we are doing it. And I want them to know that I actually think that they’re the expert of their own experience. I hold that in our sessions. And not only that, but there’s a decider of their experience. And I want to hold that also. So as you were talking and I was thinking about that, about changing the language, it’s just like people saying race is a cause of disease. First of all, race is a social structure. It’s actually the ism. The one in power who’s doing the ism is really where that’s happening. So racism influences is, is a cause of. The word cause can be very evidence based and tricky because you have to use the criteria of causation.
Jennifer Jackson (00:45:27):
So there’s very few things that are caused in the evidence based world. But influence, that racism leads, it can be followed in a straight line to reduce health outcomes. And it’s not those people’s fault race, the racism and who enacted the racism and what institutions and governments held and promoted and glossed over and pretended it wasn’t there. And all those other sorts of things that are really, and that on a level of one person, we can also do something about that if we have the privilege of holding the space of health or men, physical health, mental health, anything like that with another person that we’re very careful not to hold it over them. In this definition to bring it all the way back was blocked. I don’t want to be a block. There’s already blocks. I would like my harm reduction to be unblocking an area that I blocked or someone else has blocked. Feels really important. So I was thinking about that as you were talking.
Chavonne McClay (00:46:24):
I have one more thing.
Jennifer Jackson (00:46:26):
Chavonne McClay (00:46:28):
Yeah, what you just said, I was already repairing in my head. This is the reason that I wanted the format of this podcast to be with a partner, with you, and to also have it be interviewing people. Because what I said earlier when I said we speak to, speak about, speak for it. And my whole body just went, oh, I could feel myself cringe when I said speak for it. I was like, oh, I need to fix that right now. And then I didn’t know how to do it yet. Because that to me goes back to blocking. It’s not my place to define anything. It’s not my place to gate keep. Because that’s what it felt like when I said speak for. So I wanted to repair and I also wanted you as a partner because I feel like you’ll check me on my shit, which is what I need. So that’s why it’s so important to have these conversations rather than me just sitting on a podcast and talking all day. Because I could do that and nothing gets learned, nothing gets better.
Jennifer Jackson (00:47:26):
Chavonne McClay (00:47:26):
I can just, let’s talk about this now. So yeah, I think that… Where was I going with that? I got really worked up and really excited and I don’t know where I was going. So that’s why I see this podcast as a platform for people to speak on their own experience. That’s the holding space that I want to do. And that’s why I invited you, because I know that you can do that. You’re so excellent in holding space for people, including myself. Where was I going? I got really excited. Well, I’m not even going to try to edit this out. I just got really excited and I don’t even know what the point I was trying to make was.
Jennifer Jackson (00:48:02):
Well, I wanted to reflect from what you said, that it’s an honor to be your partner. And calling bull shit on each other is a really important part of any relationship in my life. Not only that I am able to call bullshit on someone, like if I feel uncomfortable, but more importantly that I accept bullshit being called on me feels really important and feels like a very foundational part of our relationship with each other. And it’s done in a very kind way, which these things don’t have to be kind for me to accept them. I don’t need a particular tone to be like, “Jen, are you sure about that?” But it’s really the honesty aspect, the authenticity that we’re allowed to have. I would even say a word more genuine, which feels more foundational than those other two words. That it’s saying it in the moment when it feels right. Not just stewing about it and having to come back later and have this, that feels like a very important space to hold for other people as well, to ask for clarification when we need it.
Jennifer Jackson (00:49:05):
If I realize that something really applies to me, that’s said when we’re interviewing someone, I want to be able to say that honestly. That’s something I’m holding myself to where I’m like, “So I’ve definitely done that and I really feel like I would like to do that differently. And I don’t know that I’m sure how right now, do you have anything to share with me and/or I need to go do my work about that.” It doesn’t have to be anyone teaching me, but still just excited.
Chavonne McClay (00:49:26):
Jennifer Jackson (00:49:30):
It’s a really wonderful, beautiful dynamic that I feel it’s holding things that are very heavy, excuse the expression, but very meaty. Just a lot to uncover and explore and expand about together, especially the last episode. And be excited about what’s to come in a way that makes me giggly and want to laugh at with you. This balance of things. We talked about this a few times, I think, but I just really feel it right now. In fact, I’m not that sweaty today.
Chavonne McClay (00:49:59):
Me neither, I normally [inaudible 00:50:03].
Jennifer Jackson (00:50:05):
It’s really interesting. Normally I get really nervous and we’re feeling sweaty. I feel very grounded in this one, which I think is speaks to what these topics are and where we’re going in our inquiry about this, which feels really, really.
Chavonne McClay (00:50:16):
It really does. It really does. Yeah. I love this platform. I love these conversations. As we came up with these definitions, and I’m wondering, two years from now, if we’ll still have the same definitions because we’re going to keep having these conversations with each other, conversations with interviewees, with you our listeners, and I just can’t wait to see how it evolves.
Jennifer Jackson (00:50:41):
Oh, I’m excited. That’s awesome. And I would love to explore that. I’m making a little checkbox in my head to explore how we feel about this later. I would love to do that.
Chavonne McClay (00:50:50):
Yeah. Wow, this is great. This just, ugh, I’m really enjoying this conversation. It feels really rich and really nuanced. As we explore this podcast as it continues, we think it’s really important to reflect on how we can take what we learn and unlearn and be in action. This is something we’re going to ask at the end of all of our conversations with people. So let’s do it for the first time now. What can we all do, think about and focus on to take what we’ve learned from this podcast to help make a difference? Jen, why don’t you go first?
Jennifer Jackson (00:51:25):
Ooh. Okay. So I love this one and I have thought about this for many days, just excited for this part of things. It’s what feels expansive to me. It’s also what feels like we get to learn through this and unlearn, like you said. Growth and dynamic, feeling dynamic and also other words we’re coming to mind. It feels really important to name things, something that we’re already trying to do and that I feel like an impact of talking about something on this level where we have named things really, explicitly. First of all, from my body to other people that feels like a release of some kind. That something has been living in me and it feels really important to say it and share it. It becomes a shared thing, that feels really important. And also still going with that naming, thinking about which things intersect with each other.
Jennifer Jackson (00:52:21):
I don’t think we’ve said the word intersection in this episode so far, but it feels really important that there are intersections of body justice, that liberation. We could call that whole thing body liberation if we made it one term. And the larger societal issues of oppression and marginalization, that includes our roles. Identifying our roles, being honest about having been a part of something. Even if we don’t agree with it now, even if it caused harm and we need to undo harm. These things on an individual personal level feels like acknowledging how we benefit from harming other people. Just like other people benefit from harming us. You were talking earlier about who wins in this scenario, who benefits, who makes money off of this? We could go in a lot of directions. Harm reduction feels like a really important thing to name right now and about what, anytime we go down that road, harm reduction creates space. Undoing harm or reversing it or reducing it or whatever language ends up being appropriate for a given situation, creates space.
Jennifer Jackson (00:53:32):
And in that space, people can have the opportunity to find a more embodied self, for example, because there’s space, especially if it’s intentionally created by another person, especially if that person is themselves, they’re able to do that. If the space that’s created is for less marginalization and less oppression about something, even in smaller ways. It keeps making me think of simple adjustments and I’m going very micro again here, person to person kind of thinking. I think this is where I think about… I actually think I learn about it from others on a real macro level, but the level I’m thinking about, especially my own repair as a white person, with a lot of privilege is simple adjustments. So something that I learned from one of our future podcast guests is how white women, inclusive of myself say those white women or just label it white women or talk about white women a lot when the real answer is us and we.
Jennifer Jackson (00:54:32):
Something I said earlier in this podcast actually, which I’m now getting present to, it’s a habit of mine now, but it feels like a really big deal to keep my responsibility always within my language, and not for myself. It’s not really for me. It’s something that I really trained myself to say, this we and us, so that even if I wasn’t doing it consciously, I could hear somewhere subconsciously that I’m always taking responsibility. And also when other people hear me say that, especially one-on-one or in a group where I’m a white person in a position of power with other people that they know, it doesn’t make me safe. And I’m even going to put that in quotes. It’s not me looking for safety. It’s an invitation for other people to have safe.
Chavonne McClay (00:55:23):
Jennifer Jackson (00:55:25):
That feels like the ultimate example I always think about. It actually took me a really long time to unlearn that. And I was called out multiple times and I thought it was really important and I was grateful each of those times that I was called out. It was a deeper level of wanting it to change. Sometimes it’s a process, a practice, and it feels good to be here. Actually, not that I have to feel good. That’s something that white women try to do, make ourselves comfortable so that we have learned, but we feel good now. It actually feels good and it also feels really sticky at the same time. It feels like I can make the mistake like I did before at any moment because I don’t have to do this. I have chosen to do it. And I can feel the tension between those two things. And there are so many things that I probably do that I have never even touched yet, that I really need to have the same sort of thought process about and uncomfortableness, because participating in changes to a system requires that kind of self-awareness.
Jennifer Jackson (00:56:31):
Including undoing harm or repair or restoration. It also feels really important on a field level, like the field of dieticians, but within the profession has a lot of racism issues. DEI, diversity, equity and inclusion being something that’s very performative. Including asking people in black and brown bodies who are dieticians to be volunteers, not even to get paid for their work. There’s a lot to be said for that. Addressing those systems specifically. Something that’s really on my mind and that I think about a lot is if I was back to being in my didactic program, so the bachelor’s part of the degree that everyone does, what would I have liked to learn then or what would I have liked to have been shared with everyone there? Or allowed to be a conversation by those in power that validates fat bodies. That validates black and brown bodies, indigenous bodies, people of color. That validates disabled bodies, disabled people that validates neurodivergents. I didn’t even hear that term until long after being a dietician and I myself am neurodivergent. I would’ve loved to know that all that time ago.
Jennifer Jackson (00:57:52):
As well as in the internship, in any kind of program where people are working on health for other people and the power dynamic really begins. Learning what a microaggression is and not wanting and trying not to do that. I mean, there’s a lot in the dieticians field. I mean, that would require a very big change. Very, very big. But it’s still on my mind. But that’s something I would like to influence. Something that I’m actively doing right now, I’ve just joined a toolkit, or I’m considering this toolkit that would be given to dietetic programs and also to an internship to inform them of some of these things. But just begin naming some things, I haven’t gotten very far into. So this is a hope I have right now. My hope is that they will be able to meet me in a place where we can say things explicitly, I’m trying to say. Ways in which this can feel expansive.
Jennifer Jackson (00:58:44):
And none of this is actually to toot my own horn, it’s to say that it wasn’t that hard to find opportunities to have a say. I don’t know if that’s the time that we’re in. I don’t know if it’s my privilege speaking. Because someone spoke for me to ask me to be on this toolkit. I didn’t just go find it myself. But it’s still interesting and it’s still in this direction of how can embodiment for the rest of us be something that’s on everyone’s mind. That is said in these places where people are going to be the ones in “power,” the nutrition experts, et cetera. That’s where I’m sitting with this.
Chavonne McClay (00:59:20):
That was, oh, that was a really exciting answer. Really rich and I really appreciate where you’re coming from on it.
Jennifer Jackson (00:59:29):
One more thing, actually, as I was talking about this toolkit, what’s already coming to mind is they’re asking someone… Even though I don’t have body privilege, and I’m hoping that we would be able to talk about anti-fatness in the field, I’m still a white woman. I’m still a white dietician. I’m the majority of the field, over 90% made up of people who look like me, at least in the whiteness category. And how I would like to make sure that I’m not speaking for other people who do not have this privilege and how I want to have boundaries about those people being included. I was just realizing that in real time, that that would be really important. So things like that.
Jennifer Jackson (01:00:07):
Adjusting the excitement of, oh, I get to talk about this, but stepping aside from having the power. So that someone who is marginalized and oppressed more than myself, who doesn’t have these privileges that I do, has the opportunity to speak, feels really important. So that’s not lost on me either. So I appreciate even saying that out loud and saying that that was going to happen so that I can even consider that. That kind of work, pausing and giving myself a chance to change my mind feels really important and that it leans in a direction that matches my values and is not purist or supremacist. That’s not just look at all the things that I can do, but it’s like, what can we do? Who needs to be the one speaking? Is it me? Just really kind of sitting with all of that.
Chavonne McClay (01:00:53):
Ooh, thank you.
Jennifer Jackson (01:00:56):
So thank you for that space. And how about for you, Chavonne?
Chavonne McClay (01:01:01):
Well, on the other end of the spectrum, I am not prepared for this question at all, so I am kind of weeding it as we talk. But things that keep coming to mind for me are something I just said that this definition is, these definitions are going to keep evolving and keep expanding, and I’m really excited about that. In the moment, how I can use all that we’re talking about, all that we’ve talked about to make a difference. I think that changing my own language, not that I’m going to make a huge impact on everybody, but at least changing my own language in the people that I work with and interact with, will hopefully make me a safer person to talk to, will hopefully make me help other people feel more embodiment, more belonging within their body. Not saying fat phobic, which I say all the time, but fat… I can’t say the word. I keep seeing that yasmine, and I know that’s not the word, so I’m going to learn the word and be able to say it next time.
Jennifer Jackson (01:01:57):
I don’t even know if I’m saying it right. I don’t know. [inaudible 01:02:01]. I don’t know if I’m saying it right.
Chavonne McClay (01:02:01):
[inaudible 01:02:02] Okay. We’re going to go with that, I’m going to learn. That’s my homework, by your next appointment, our next recording.
Jennifer Jackson (01:02:07):
Chavonne McClay (01:02:08):
But yeah, changing my own language, changing my own way of thinking about this in terms of making a difference. Also, just sitting with that imposter syndrome and using it as a way to help other people, including myself. I think that’s where I’m sitting with it the most right now.
Jennifer Jackson (01:02:33):
Ooh, I love that very much. I love the vulnerability that was inside of what you just said, the not feeling prepared and also imposter syndrome. And I think these are really important things to think about. I think it’s so honest, so important, sorry, to be honest about what we do not know. Yes. I don’t want to pretend that I know how to say that word, which I think is better. I don’t want to pretend that I’ve read every book on this topic because part of this is to… Although I have an instinct about that right, to perform and to make sure that I have everything in my head, I’m also really enjoying this place we’ve settled into together, which is actually exploring it, expanding together, even contracting together when something feels tough and creating and holding that space as people that we interview and that they can have the space that they need to explore these concepts.
Jennifer Jackson (01:03:25):
That’s something that I know that we’re going to be doing. I could feel it deep within me that that’s how it’s going. This permission to explore. Earlier I said that talking about resilience is just so tricky in my mind, it doesn’t feel like the right word. Thinking about who’s in power, but thriving. That people can have a moment of thriving with us, that I can have that moment with them. That feels really important. It feels very radical, like you said earlier. It feels like a really powerful space. It’s so interesting to me that I’m actually stimming right now. Touching my face.
Chavonne McClay (01:04:00):
I can see your face getting red.
Jennifer Jackson (01:04:02):
I can’t wait. I’m also getting excited, because I’m thinking about who we’re going to interview, it’s making me nervous [inaudible 01:04:02].
Chavonne McClay (01:04:02):
Well, I also wanted to say alternatively, yes, it’s important to admit what we don’t know, but I think it’s also important to admit what we do know. I think that I decided to do this podcast and you were the first person that came to mind. Never a doubt in my mind because not to toot our own horns. Toot toot. But I think that we both hold the capacity to hold space for people, and I think that’s really important. I think, like you said, making sure you’re a safe person. I’d like to think, obviously we have lots to learn because we always have lots to learn. But we are coming from this from a place of curiosity and joy and just being open and safe for people to talk to us. And I think that’s really important. So I wanted to name that because part of my own embodiment process is actually acknowledging that I have some strengths because I’m real good at not. So I wanted to bring that to the forefront as well.
Jennifer Jackson (01:05:01):
So my friend Chelsea says she’d like to say something with grace whenever she’s going to toot her own horn, which I think is such a wonderful say of saying this. It’s okay to say what we’re good at. It feels like in our society and all, especially if there’s anything about being perceived. That we get perceived in a way that does not feel good. If we say, I’m good at X. Versus I’ll produce X. If we say I’ll do it, that’s different than being like, I know that, but not even offering it to do it. I know something about that. Feels… I totally agree with you.
Jennifer Jackson (01:05:35):
It’s like it’s a full picture of something. And also there’s like nuanced places, the I don’t know, places. Not the I don’t know. I don’t know it, and I know that I don’t know it, but also this other space, I don’t know that, I don’t know something. Realization that we might have in real time. Like, I have never conceived of this. I have never contemplated it. These lovely c words that are like, I just haven’t ever been in a place to even have this expansive part of myself happening, and I’m really excited for that.
Chavonne McClay (01:06:08):
Oh, me too.
Jennifer Jackson (01:06:09):
So this has really interesting to explore and I cannot wait to see how all of these conversations evolve.
Chavonne McClay (01:06:16):
Absolutely. We’ll see you next time when we have our first podcast guest. We’re so excited.
Jennifer Jackson (01:06:22):
Chavonne McClay (01:06:24):
Jennifer Jackson (01:06:27):
Chavonne McClay (01:06:27):
Jennifer Jackson (01:06:30):
Thank you for listening to season one of the Embodiment for the rest of us podcast episodes. We publish every two weeks wherever you listen to podcasts.
Chavonne McClay (01:06:38):
You can also find the podcast at our website, embodimentfortherestofus.com, and follow us on social media, on Twitter at embodiment us.
Jennifer Jackson (01:06:48):
And on Instagram at Embodiment For the rest of us, we look forward to being with you again next time in conversation.