Season 3 Episode 2 Kymber Stephenson | Embodiment for the Rest of Us

Embodiment for the Rest of Us – Season 3, Episode 2: Kymber Stephenson

May 25, 2023

Chavonne (she/her) and Jenn (she/her) interviewed Kymber Stephenson (she/her) about re-embodiment, the stepping stones that support neurodivergent embodiment, and what’s next in her embodiment journey.

Kymber Stephenson (she/her) is a registered dietitian nutritionist living & working in Fort Collins, Colorado. As the Clinical Director at Side by Side Nutrition, she supports clients and clinicians in their exploration of what embodiment & food flexibility could be in today’s world. Kymber came to this work passionate about inclusive disordered eating management and prevention. She believes all people deserve equitable access to quality food and evidence-based nutrition education, regardless of status or background. In this vein, she focuses on educating clients about the multi-faceted ways history, marketing, food systems, culture, psychology, and body image affect health and relationships to nutrition, food, and body.

Recognizing the complex, sometimes painful associations brought on by these challenges, she works with her clients to find their vision for their most peaceful relationship with food, acknowledging not only its nourishing properties, but truly embracing its comforts, tradition, and fun! Kymber’s philosophy is that disordered eating is rooted primarily in an iceberg of social injustice, and that it is an individual’s birthright to reclaim a peaceful, confident relationship with food while embracing satisfaction in their bodies and their overall lives.

Content Warning: discussion of privilege, discussion of diet culture, discussion of fatphobia, discussion of eating disorders, discussion of healthism, mention of anti-choice laws

Trigger Warnings: None for this episode

A few highlights:

4:30: Kymber shares how her understanding of the complexities of embodiment and neurodivergence, specifically ADHD, has changed for her

31:26: Kymber discusses re-embodiment

51:53: Kymber discusses the process of body imaging

1:12:43: Kymber shares how the complexities of all of the parts that live within us show up in embodiment work

1:27:52 Kymber discusses looking for “what’s next”

1:35:21: Kymber shares how body autonomy, personal agency, safety, and security are intrinsic to embodiment conversations

1:42:50: Kymber discusses and what’s next for her personally and professionally

Links from this episode:

ADHD

ADHD and Children’s Self-Esteem

Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents

Attachment Theory

The Blackfoot People’s Hierarchy of Needs

Cognitive Flexibility

Impostor Syndrome

Neuroplasticity

Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria

Sheila Ciminera

Tiana Dodson

US Airplane Cockpit Measurement Study

White Supremacy Culture

Music: “Bees and Bumblebees (Abeilles et Bourdons), Op. 562” by Eugène Dédé through the Creative Commons License

Please follow us on social media:

Twitter: @embodimentus

Instagram: @embodimentfortherestofus

Captions

EFTROU Season 3 Episode 2 is 1 hour, 45 minutes, and 06 seconds long. (1:45:06)

Chavonne: Hello there! I’m Chavonne McClay (she/her).

Jenn: And I’m Jenn Jackson (she/her).

Chavonne: This is Season 3 of Embodiment for the Rest of Us. A podcast series exploring topics and intersections that exist in fat, queer, and disability liberation!

Jenn: In this show, we interview those with lived experience and professionals alike to learn how they are affecting radical change and how we can all make this world a safer and more welcoming place for all humans who are historically and currently marginalized and should be centered, listened to, and supported.

Chavonne: Captions and content warnings are provided in the show notes for each episode, including specific time stamps, so that you can skip triggering content any time that feels supportive to you! This podcast is a representation of our co-host and guest experiences and may not be reflective of yours. These conversations are not medical advice, and are not a substitute for mental health or nutrition support.

Jenn: In addition, the conversations held here are not exhaustive in their scope or depth. These topics, these perspectives are not complete and are always in process. These are just highlights! Just like posts on social media, individual articles, or any other podcast, this is just a snapshot of the full picture.

Chavonne: We are always interested in any feedback on this process if something needs to be addressed. You can email us at Listener@EmbodimentForTheRestOfUs.com.

[1:36]

(J): Welcome to Episode 2 of season 3 of the Embodiment for the Rest of Us podcast. In today’s episode (the first interview of this season!), we did a deep dive with the deeply insightful human being and friend of the podcast, Kymber Stephenson, about her embodiment explorations and beyond!

(C): Kymber Stephenson (she/her) is a registered dietitian nutritionist living & working in Fort Collins, Colorado. As the Clinical Director at Side by Side Nutrition, she supports clients and clinicians in their exploration of what embodiment & food flexibility could be in today’s world. Kymber came to this work passionate about inclusive disordered eating management and prevention. She believes all people deserve equitable access to quality food and evidence-based nutrition education, regardless of status or background. In this vein, she focuses on educating clients about the multi-faceted ways history, marketing, food systems, culture, psychology, and body image affect health and relationships to nutrition, food, and body.

(J): Recognizing the complex, sometimes painful associations brought on by these challenges, she works with her clients to find their vision for their most peaceful relationship with food, acknowledging not only its nourishing properties, but truly embracing its comforts, tradition, and fun! Kymber’s philosophy is that disordered eating is rooted primarily in an iceberg of social injustice, and that it is an individual’s birthright to reclaim a peaceful, confident relationship with food while embracing satisfaction in their bodies and their overall lives.

(C): Thank you so much for being here, listening, and holding space with us dear listeners! We can’t wait for you to hear each and every interview this season. And now for today’s episode!

[3:32]

(C): Thank you so much for being here, listening, and holding space with us dear listeners! We can’t wait for you to hear each and every interview this season. And now for today’s episode!

Jenn:

Of course, this third season of the podcast begins with Kymber Stephenson, she/her, who is joining us from the greater Denver area, Colorado. We had such a great time with you last season, Kymber, we had to have you back for a deeper dive and right away. Let’s get started. How are you doing and feeling and thinking and being today, Kymber?

Kymber:

I am doing, feeling, thinking, and being very well. I’m doing great, and was excited to get to check in with y’all at the beginning of this. It’s definitely put me in an even better mood than I’ve been in. I’m just so happy to be here and I want to celebrate y’all for your third season. That’s such a big deal in podcasting.

Jenn:

[inaudible].

Kymber:

Congratulations. It’s amazing.

Jenn:

Thank you.

Chavonne:

We’re so thrilled to have you here with us and for you to be our first guest of 2023.

Kymber:

Thank you for having me.

Jenn:

Thank you for being here.

[0:58]

Chavonne:

I’m going to go ahead and start with questions. We explored so many nuances of embodiment and disembodiment in our last conversation. It was wonderful. One area that really stuck out was the complexities of embodiment and neurodivergence, specifically ADHD. How has that topic sat with you and expanded for you?

Kymber:

Oh, I was so excited to get to talk about this. I’m really glad it’s been on y’all’s mind too, just because I feel like it’s kind of been a central topic in my life over the past year, and so I feel like it’s hard to have conversations without it coming up sometimes.

I’ve been thinking a lot more about it. I think when I last talked to y’all, it was maybe like six months, a little less, after I’d gotten diagnosed with ADHD myself. I was still very much kind of learning about it, still coming to a place of acceptance with that diagnosis. I still question it sometimes. I said that to my therapist, I was like, “Sometimes I wonder if I don’t have ADHD”. And she was like, “Girl, you definitely have ADHD.” I was like, “Um, validating.” I was like, “Yeah, yeah, I guess everyone didn’t lose their toothpaste this week. That makes sense.”

Jenn:

I lost my toothpaste this week.

Chavonne:

You did?

Jenn:

I do not currently know where it is. I had to open the new one.

Kymber:

I had to buy a new one. And then, you know what? I found it on the shelf where it normally is, but it was just laying down instead of standing up so I could see the little cap because that’s not what I was looking for. I was like, “It’s not here. I don’t know where it is.”

Jenn:

Hard relate. I will have to go see if it just fell over because that sounds like me.

Kymber:

Yeah. Anyway, speaking of which, ADHD, back to the question. I’ve been thinking about it a lot. It’s interesting because I don’t know if I told y’all a lot this last time, but the thing that prompted me to even explore that diagnosis was a client who got diagnosed in like May of 2021. It was a client that I feel like I identified strongly with. When she was like, “Yeah, I went for ADHD testing,” I was like, “Why would you do that? You don’t have ADHD. You’re just like me.” I was like, “That’s bizarre.”

And then what she did was she held up a bunch of sticky notes and planners from her desk and was like, “No, Kymber, not everyone needs this many things to be able to manage their life.” Then I looked around at my desk and I was like, “So anyway, how did things go for you this week?”

From there, I kind of went through and was dipping my toe in and exploring. I think I took some self tests and just learning some things that were indicators of it, especially in women or AFAB people. And I was like, “Okay, this is so unexpected.” From there, I feel like I’ve just been learning so much more about neurodiversity.

I’ve also since been able to identify it in more of my clients. At first, I was a little bit worried. I was like, “Am I just kind of seeing this everywhere? Is this a confirmation bias?” But I learned no, neurodiverse people tend to actually find each other and connect really well with each other. So it makes sense that people who stick around with me for long-term relationships also are likely to be neurodiverse.

I’m actually really excited because I think that’s offered so much insight to me and to myself. And I’ve been able to refer. I think I just had my 13th or 12th person diagnosed in the past over a year, either with ADHD or autism or both. That’s felt kind of rewarding, especially because sometimes I think we can really second guess ourselves as dieticians in the mental health space, especially when people have psychotherapists who are really great and they’re qualified and hadn’t identified it before.

But I think one thing that I learned was to see it in people who are high maskers because that’s how I’ve been myself. I have a lot more to say on that, but I also want to make sure I leave space for y’all to reflect too.

Chavonne:

I have so much to say too, but I want to keep listening to you. I don’t know if it’s too much of a diversion to ask how ADHD shows up in eating disorder work or just people that you’re working with who are coming to you for support with their relationships with food. Is that too much of a digression right now, Jenn?

Kymber:

No, not at all. Not at all. No, I actually, I see that a lot. Part of how it shows up, one thing I think that’s interesting is the overlap between undiagnosed or late diagnosed neurodiversity and eating disorders and disordered eating. I think that it makes sense that those are patterns that show up.

I think one, a lot of it is developing coping for emotional dysregulation that can come with neurodiversity, or feeling othered, feeling different, can be another reason we start to turn to that. One of the things that we get really overwhelmed with or dysregulated by is choice and decisions. And so I think that’s another thing where an eating disorder function sometimes steps in to be able to simplify choices for neurodiverse people, because when you have a set of rigid rules, you don’t have to get so fatigued.

I think it really also leans into the coping that we develop with perfectionism, especially when we’re high maskers. And I think it just makes sense that there’s a big overlap. But I think one way that it tends to show up is also in these cognitive distortions. So starting to then get out of control and develop that all or nothing thinking, because it can become a bit of a hyper fixation.

It also can be a huge dopamine hit. Things like stepping on the scale or feeling celebrated because that eating disorder voice or disordered eating voice might say you’ve done a good job. I heard somewhere that by the age of 10, a lot of kids with ADHD will have heard at least 20,000 negative messages about themselves. So I think a lot of the function that the eating disorder voice can fulfill and that’s it learns from our society at large is quote, unquote what being good or healthy eating should look like.

I think there’s a big overlap because it serves all these different functions that can help us cope, but it also can become a really big challenge. Things like having more recovery challenges because maybe struggling with memory or object permanence or things that become more distant over time, you’re less able to maintain memory of the last time things got bad or motivation for why you need to be challenged because we tend to be very sometimes consequence driven. And so I think a lot of my neurodiverse clients struggle in recovery with almost procrastinating their recovery until the last minute, the minute it’s due, the minute we have to hit that bottom.

I hope that answers your question, but I think there are a lot of ways that neurodiversity and eating disorders and even body image overlaps, because I think ultimate coping can come from this sense of, there’s something different about me. How can I shape what’s on the outside to make my inside feel a little bit more assimilated? I think that’s why we struggle into our years past these teen years is because we start to notice, well, it’s not working.

Jenn:

Assimilation.

Chavonne:

Whoa.

Jenn:

That to me is a description of high masking. I haven’t thought the word assimilation related to high masking. I usually think this takes so much energy. We can self gaslight here, just like we can be gaslit here because we’re so busy masking and using all our energy towards that, but assimilation.

Kymber:

Yeah. Well, one way that I’ve really started to frame my thinking around it, especially just being surrounded with so many neurodiverse people, is it starting to show up for me as, again, neurodiversity is a spectrum, but really embracing that besides the buzzword of it and the fact that it really has always been a spectrum. All diversity is a spectrum. It’s inevitable. Whether that’s sleep diversity or energy diversity or body diversity, it’s all very much ingrained in being human.

So when I say assimilation, it’s really because the way I’ve been thinking about it lately is the diagnoses that we have are the name for the result of shoehorning diversity into a very rigid set of narrow systems. And so truly, even things like the way our world is set up, a nine-to-five workday, Monday through Friday work week, over time, it doesn’t make sense that every single person on Earth would work within that.

So I think part of what’s going on with neurodiversity is it’s describing the brains that were already there, but it’s describing how we don’t fit within the systems that we’re all expected to hold as a standard. I think obviously there are psycho and biological consequences to that because it’s systemic oppression over time. It’s very much micro aggressed in a way. I think that’s why we assimilate and kind of become our own self policing system, just like with every other system of oppression.

One way I think about this is this anecdote from World War I and the first time that we had fighter planes. The first fighter planes that they made, they… Have I told you all this before? I never know what I’ve said before.

Jenn:

I don’t think so.

Chavonne:

I don’t either.

Kymber:

The first fighter planes that they made, they made with the cockpits adjusted to the sizing of the average man. So they just took the averages sizes of all the men in the military and then made the seat the average size. Our planes were crashing so much more than other places and they couldn’t figure out why. And then they realized you can’t actually put people in averages.

Once we started introducing adjustable seats, our rates of death and complications went down significantly-

Chavonne:

Wow.

Kymber:

… because just being able to move closer or move back or have a seatbelt that fits you allows for better safety. I kind of think of that with neurodiversity and being like, oh, the system, the world that we’ve built, the world that we’ve been placed in is kind of that average and we’re going to crash. Most of us are going to crash, the ones that are not within that medium.

That’s kind of why assimilation to me feels like a good way to describe it. I also think that really shifts the shame away from this is your brain and your brain is wrong and not built for this world. And it’s like, well, no, this world just has been-

Chavonne:

It’s not built.

Kymber:

… narrowed to not be fit for a lot of us.

Chavonne:

Wow. Wow.

Jenn:

Holy shit, Kymber.

Chavonne:

Yeah. I’m just going to say wow one more time.

Jenn:

I love that analogy. That blew my mind.

Chavonne:

Since I’m a mental health person and don’t have as much, obviously, expertise in the work that you do, the idea of this reclamation of mental health diagnoses, first of all, I love the idea of a diagnosis as a result of shoehorning diversity into our system, like pew, pew, pew, pew.

But it’s making me think of the idea of this reclamation of mental health diagnoses is like, these are dangerous gifts. They’re not always the most supportive of existing with those systems, like you said. They can be dangerous in those way, but when you think about all these artists who might have certain diagnoses that might make it hard to function, but they’re creating these magnificent works of art.

But then there’s all this pressure to assimilate into society. What art would we not have if everyone was kind of shoehorned into that? I’m just really blown away by that. That’s really powerful. Really, really powerful.

Kymber:

Well, and I love that you say that too, because I like to think of these things from an evolutionary neurology standpoint where I’m like, we were meant to live in community, and this individualization of our living situations is relatively new in the course of human history. I think that’s the other thing is isolation makes a lot of this float to the top because I do think we thrive in community, whereas our skills and our way of being probably would not be viewed as a deficit when we’re all kind of together working in more harmony for allowing that diversity of skillsets and needs and just ways of showing up in the world.

So it very much makes sense that I’m like, yeah, we need the artists. I think in a world where artists didn’t have to live alone in a studio apartment, they wouldn’t be starving artists, that wouldn’t be blaming them for not being able to hold those resources. It would be like, oh, no, we’re all fed and this person’s feeding us with their art. This is the community. It’s all a contribution. But I think it just doesn’t show up that way because isolation makes us stand out.

Chavonne:

Wow. Wow. Wow, wow, wow.

Jenn:

Yes, wow. You were talking about rejection sensitivity dysphoria earlier, RSD. And just now when you were talking about living in community and things floating to the top when we’re isolated, I was thinking about RSD and how challenging it is related to body image, embodiment, work life, home life, relationship, I mean, everything. That there is an internalized dialogue that gets louder as we assimilate more because we are exhausted.

Kymber:

And we’re more isolated because we’re putting more distance between our authentic self and the real world.

Jenn:

Yeah. Isolation itself is isolating. Also, the way you’re talking about this, the confluence of eating disorders and different neurotypes, when we just think about all the neurodiversity that there is, of course it’s there. How are we supposed to have access to power? I just mean empowerment, not power over others or anything. Just want to make sure that I’m being distinct from assimilation being not empowering, but a different kind of power dynamic.

But also control because control brings us safety and security. Do I have enough? Am I okay? Do I have enough? Am I okay? Just the space holding that you do and are doing even right now in the reality of what a spectrum looks like is that everyone gets the chance to be empowered at whatever their spot is and whatever it is they’re dealing with. I love the hopefulness of that.

Kymber:

Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s a little bit about highlighting, first, kind of cleaning out those years of shame and bringing those to the surface and allowing that grace to enter the room because to not be able to share your truth is the loneliest feeling in the world.

Jenn:

Absolutely.

Kymber:

Of course, you’re going to be coping through whatever means you can, and food can be a really accessible way to cope for some people. I think when it comes to that empowerment, it’s also about shifting the focus from self-control and self-criticism and power over, like power over a situation, to power to. So power to do something, power to move forward, power to make new decisions, power to reach out and collaborate with someone else. It’s very different than just the power over the hierarchy structure.

Chavonne:

Oh, okay. Wow. I need to write that down so I remember half of that. That was amazing.

Jenn:

This is just the first question, I just want to say.

Kymber:

I know.

Jenn:

No.

Chavonne:

No, that was good.

Jenn:

This is exactly why this was sticking out to us because not just this question that I wrote, so I’m not trying to give myself props in this moment, it’s like revisiting this-

Chavonne:

She loves her questions. And they’re good. It’s fine.

Jenn:

Thank you. I do. I love my own questions.

Chavonne:

You should. You should pat your own back on that for sure.

Jenn:

I have ADHD, right? So when I read them, I’m like, this is amazing. But I wrote it in the past, but to me, it’s new again. In this question where it’s the expansiveness of holding multiple spectrums as important and without the need to assimilate or coming back from the very real need to assimilate in particular situations, I don’t want to take away that that could be so protective.

And food isn’t just helpful. I mean, it’s a really important answer. It’s part of that safety and security and our body saying, “This sucks right now, but at least we have this.” You have the energy to move forward. That kind of stuff.

Just my dietician brain, I want to say thank you for highlighting that because I hear more and more talk about how that’s not normal. But I feel more and more as I explore my own neurotype, my own neurodivergence, and just being neurodiversity affirming as a provider, how… How would I say that? Shoot, I don’t quite have words for what I’m experiencing, but the intersections of those different spectrums are worth exploring.

Kymber:

Oh yeah, 100%. I think the longer that I’m in this work, I’ve always tried to say I work in a client led manner, but I think I’m really embodying that more because the client, they are the intersections. I think that’s been really helpful to understand for goal setting and not bringing ableism or even shooting from quote, unquote eating disorder best practice standards into our expectations for people.

I think that can be really scary for a lot of us, especially as dieticians. We go through a very narrow type of training. We’re told that we have to be narrow types of people, both physically and literally, and in our clinical and figurative sense. I think that’s been one thing that’s been really helpful and a challenge is to be like, okay, I’m going to sit with this discomfort that this person is only eating once per day. I don’t know. Typically, my instinct would be high level care right now, but maybe there’s more here to understand. Maybe I can sit with this a little bit longer and help us establish the goals that are authentic to them.

That’s just a much longer term process, which is okay. That’s like where the healing is a lot of the time, is reducing someone’s sense of urgency and saying, “It matters to me to make time for you because this didn’t get built overnight. It’s not going to get undone overnight either.”

Jenn:

Yeah. We don’t have to be taken from our lives and doing things in very short periods of time with a lot of force often for that person to be able to do that. We can start low and go slow. I love that.

Kymber:

Oh yeah. One of my clients said one thing that she likes about our work is to go slow to go fast. She was like, “In the beginning, it took us this time, and you built rapport and you established that. And then once we felt comfortable, we were able to start running.” I think that’s the thing too. We think we’re going to save ourselves time by trying to control it, but we don’t. We can’t.

That’s one thing that’s been really helpful, especially just reframing, looking at time as a whole and knowing that time blindness is part of our struggles, reconceptualizing how we perceive time. That’s been another way to make accommodations for my clients and to make room for their needs and embracing the ADHD strengths that can come with that.

Even things like metaphors and storytelling feel very characteristic to that work, looking at the big picture. So starting to really allow them to show up as they are in the session feels like the key to their healing because they are the key to their healing. Ultimately, there’s nothing I can physically do to change someone. [inaudible] is be there.

Jenn:

Yeah. All we can do is inspire them.

Kymber:

Mm-hmm. Exactly.

Jenn:

Which I have my own RSD come stuff come up. It’s like, you can’t inspire anybody. Yes, we can. Because we definitely cannot change other people. We can’t do that. So we can inspire them. I’m going to just sit with that and let my RSD have its day field day with it, but also it just feels really true.

Kymber:

Yeah. Well, I wonder in what world would you not be inspiring?

Jenn:

In what road or world?

Kymber:

In what world, yeah, would you not be inspiring?

Jenn:

Nowhere, just inside of my rejection sensitivity dysphoria. That’s what we do. When you’re talking about being community, that’s often what I kind of siphon that down to or filter that down to. It is inspiring each other. Of course, that happens in community. It’s really hard to do that in isolation.

Kymber:

Yeah. But also, I just saw you inspire yourself though, even to say, I’m going to sit with that. I’m like, oh, you just inspired yourself. That’s always with you.

Jenn:

Yeah. Just something to take a deep breath about. That’s because I have neurodiversity affirming support people of my own.

Chavonne:

Absolutely.

Jenn:

That’s new for me. I was diagnosed in the pandemic as well with ADHD. I’m also playing around with an autism diagnosis, self questionnaires and things at this point, but very validating for my experience and with my therapist. Rejection sensitivity dysphoria used to run my life. I used to call it imposter syndrome, but I don’t think imposter syndrome really knows what I’m talking about.

Chavonne:

Oh, that’s sitting hard because I’ve been writing about imposter syndrome in my journal for days now. So it’s comparing that. That’s really interesting. Really interesting.

Jenn:

It’s protective and makes a lot of sense. I was just writing about this recently, Chavonne, maybe like two days ago. It makes sense that I had this inner voice that’s like, “Careful. Don’t go too far into the zone where you could get hurt.” My nervous system and my body have been busy trying to protect me for a very, very, very long time.

Just because I don’t resonate with the RSD part of my nervous system anymore doesn’t mean that it doesn’t still hurt the same part for a second. It’s just like, ugh. It’s between my heart and my literal organ stomach. Between that, I get this ugh in that spot. I’ve even started rubbing it.

Chavonne:

I love that.

Jenn:

Like, hey, little RSD spot, because I want to be in community and I keep myself from that every time I listen to that part. I’m inspired by you, Kymber. That’s why I was having that sort of dialogue with myself. So thank you for that.

Kymber:

Oh my gosh. And no, thank you for inspiring me too, because I’ve never heard it put that way that imposter syndrome and rejection sensitivity go hand in hand, but it’s so true. I remember long before this not being able to have a name.

Kymber:

I remember long before this not being able to have a name for it. I remember very distinctly talking with someone in the car and being like, “Well, I don’t know if I can keep sending out invites to this thing, because people not going, even if just a couple people don’t want to go, it hurts me. I feel it.”

And I thought that was so strange. But I think, as you said that, I was like, “Oh, maybe that hasn’t gone away, but I’ve just learned to suppress it.” Because I hate that chest pain so much that it leaks out in these other ways that I feel are more acceptable, because they’re more business aligned. Like imposter syndrome, yeah, that I can work on. Wow, so I-

Chavonne:

Wow.

Kymber:

… really appreciate you saying that.

Jenn:

Thank you. And you just reminded me how much I feel this, even when I know it’s not a right fit with a client, how much I feel it in that moment, that I want to be a fit. Even if I also deeply know it’s not a fit. I want them to get the support they need, even if it’s not from me. That’s an important thing.But I still feel rejected in that moment. It’s one of the most literal rejection moments that I think I still experience, where it feels very real and it’s not really that easy to get rid of. I just have to sit with it for a while. So thank you for that.

Chavonne:

Oh wow, yeah.

Kymber:

Oh, yeah.

Jenn:

Oh my goodness. You said you had more you wanted to talk about, about this.

Chavonne:

Oh, yeah.

Jenn:

I think. Didn’t you?

Kymber:

I think I covered all the bold points. Yeah, moved down, because yeah, we just absolutely came upon it. But yeah, that is just really powerful to be sitting with and be thinking of.

Jenn:

Accidentally on purpose is the credit I’m going to give all of us.

Kymber:

I love it. I love it.

Chavonne:

I really do.

Kymber:

Yes, we’re going where we need to go. Love that.

Chavonne:

Yeah.

[31:26]

Jenn:

Okay. Okay. I’m feeling very fluttery, because I’m doing some inner work here. I can feel it. So one of our favorite parts of our last conversation was about re-embodiment. In fact, listening to our own episode, I wrote it down every time you said it. And I have been journaling about this very topic. The return is really important to me and my own self-work, and I think it’s really important to eating disorder work, and just supportive, validating, affirming work in general, that we just keep trying and returning, trying and returning.

We also talked about the verb to embody, to clarify the actions that can be present in embodying ourselves. There’s a real directionality to this, and it feels distinct from theorizing positive, this is my editorializing here, embodiment. Also, it’s the name of the theory. It’s a place to arrive or be. What shows up for you in continuing to explore coming home to yourself in your body that return, and supporting clients in doing the same thing.

Kymber:

Okay, I think-

Jenn:

That was a lot to even say emotionally.

Chavonne:

That question gave me chills. I was like, whoo. Even though I knew I was coming, I still got chills. Geez. Sorry, go ahead.

Jenn:

I know, I just wanted to let it land. It’s like after a fireworks show you don’t want to talk for a second. You’re like, “Yes!”

Chavonne:

Yes.

Jenn:

Yes.

Kymber:

Wow. I just love all the thoughts and directions that that question can bring up. And so for me, one thing about the return, I think, that’s been a big priority in this last year, honestly the last couple years, there’s a few things, and it kind of starts with intentionality. Which even that started with awareness, bringing awareness in terms of just starting to notice myself, and starting to really engage with myself in a way that I could do for everyone else. But that actually has been a lot harder for me, and that for a while was harder for me to know that I wasn’t doing with myself because I was doing it for everyone else. Because I was like, “Oh yeah, well obviously I’m good at that, because I can do it.” But I don’t always turn it inward.

And so I think that really started a journey of last year, really start trying to lead with values, like choosing two values for the year that I used as a guide and a compass for a lot of decisions. And my values last year were grace and accountability. And that really led me to start exploring boundaries a lot more. And so that’s one thing that I think has actually been really helpful in continuing that journey of re-embodiment and coming home to yourself, and making space for yourself. And reframing how I think about boundaries in terms of oh, it’s a way to understand your own needs, and honor your body with respect by helping keep it safe, by helping observe and act on what you need. And so that’s been a really important part of my embodiment journey this last year.

Other things have been considering why not me, for things that sound cool that I want to do. So I started going to aerial classes and I was like, “Baby, I’m going to be”-

Chavonne:

Cool! I love it.

Kymber:

… That’s been really, really fun, because it’s one, just one way of being like, “Oh, I didn’t know I could engage in such a fun way with my body,” and also engage all the things that I really love about being in this vessel. Which is like I can be in the air, I can be upside down, I can be on the floor. So those kinds of things have been really, really rewarding in terms of coming home to my body, and being able to say, “All right, let’s see what’s next,” And not stop that progress. And all of that becomes more exposure, which then leads into wanting to do the next thing and the next thing.

The third thing that I can think of is creating more space for rest and leisure. And I think these are also things that I didn’t have the opportunity to do, in some ways, during the pandemic. So when I met with you all last year, I’d had a goal to take quarterly vacations. And I think we met in April, and I had nothing planned. And then the next month, it was getting down to the wire, it was mid-May and I was like, “Babe, you’re almost halfway through the year and you have not planned these quarterly vacations.”

And so I booked something really quick, which ended up being an Australian tour company taking me from Vegas to Yosemite to San Francisco. And that I feel kind of just cracked my egg a little bit. And I was like, “Okay.” So from there-

Chavonne:

I like your earrings, sorry.

Kymber:

Oh, exactly. Exactly. Very full circle. Like that

Chavonne:

For listeners, Kymber’s wearing these incredible fried egg looking, they’re fried eggs, though they’re not, they look like fried eggs. They’re amazing. And sorry, I just had to say it, because it just-

Jenn:

They have pepper on them.

Chavonne:

They have pepper specks.

Kymber:

Yeah. It’s wearable art. It’s wearable art. I’m just-

Chavonne:

All about it.

Kymber:

Yes. Maybe I’ll get new headshots made. [inaudible].

Jenn:

Will you please?

Chavonne:

Oh, that’s happening.

Kymber:

I’m like, “Get the earrings, get the earrings. No, I don’t care if I’m in it.”

Jenn:

You can do a casual side turn so that you make sure that it’s highlighted as well.

Chavonne:

Perfect.

Kymber:

Oh my gosh. I just envision myself bringing a piece of toast as a prop, and the photographer being like, “Hmm.”

Chavonne:

That’s amazing.

Kymber:

You said this is for work?

Jenn:

Yes. I can barely handle this right now. Okay.

Chavonne:

Yeah.

Kymber:

But yeah, so that was something that, again, was just like that why not me, that proved you can go out of your comfort zone, you can still do these things. And even if it’s not perfect on the way, you’ll figure it out. Long story short, I didn’t bring a sleeping bag, didn’t know I had to. Ended up camping in Yosemite and I was like, “Well.” But those things allowed me to catch up for the rest of the year, to the point where I was able to get back on that goal, and create space. I felt like last year was very much like, “Oh my gosh,” remembering who I am, remembering that I love to be engaged in these ways, remembering that I like the challenge.

And so I planned another big trip in the fall to Bali, and that was another big adventure.

Chavonne:

Oh, that’s awesome.

Jenn:

Wow.

Kymber:

And again, just shifting my perfectionism. Whereas I used to be someone who’s like, “All right, let’s get the spreadsheets out.” And this time I was like, “Bali rhymes with Folley. I don’t know where that is. Bali and the Folley, let’s do it.”

Chavonne:

Love it.

Kymber:

I went and looked at the map recently. So I don’t know if that answers the question. I feel like I’m starting to loop away from it. But there’ve been a lot of things that have been about that coming home that’s kind of moving up that hierarchy of needs into the self-actualization level. And it’s just been really, really supportive.

And so helping clients with that has been really just about understanding emotional needs more, and coaching them more on it. Identifying the places where it’s hard for them to have boundaries with themselves, or outside of themselves. And I think for a lot of people that’s helped move that work forward. It’s very much been like starting to get to the bottom of that iceberg.

Chavonne:

Wow. That’s awesome. That’s really awesome.

Jenn:

Okay. I have two things, but I only wrote one down. So we’ll see if the other one comes to me. When you were talking about the hierarchy of needs. So, nerdy but important decolonization fact is Maslow took the Blackfeet hierarchy and he put them in reverse order. So the first level is self-actualization. So what I just heard, and we’ll provide links because I think this is a really important unlearning for… The second I learned it I was like, “What? Everyone should know this.” Self-actualization should come first. It’s like the community aspect coming first, it’s like having wants be needs coming first. Because wants are needs. Regulation, pleasure, these are needs of the human body, of the human spirit, of all of that.

But you said bottom of iceberg, and I was like, “Yes, exactly.” It actually looks like an iceberg. If you just took that thing and you flipped it upside down, the first thing you would really see is self-actualization is supporting your experience. So I love that you are just tuning into that.

Chavonne:

Yes.

Jenn:

And oh, let’s see if I can remember the other thing. The title of your book should be Camping Without a Sleeping Bag.

Kymber:

Tell me about it.

Jenn:

I just wanted you to know. That was it, that’s the other thing.

Chavonne:

I love that.

Kymber:

You know what? I got the sleeping bag, but it was a real saga. I ended up reading the fine print, actually bold print, on the way to the airport. And the only thing they said was, “A sleeping bag will not be provided for you, and you need one.” And I was like, “Why didn’t I read this before?” And so I hurriedly ordered one to an Amazon locker near my hotel in Vegas. But that is a story for another day. But yes, camping without a sleeping bag.

Chavonne:

I like the name of that. I like that name.

Kymber:

That’s very on brand.

Chavonne:

That’s pretty fantastic, yeah.

Kymber:

But no, thank you Jen for sharing that fact, because I kind of sensed that. Even as I was talking about the iceberg, I’m like, “You could layer those things over each other.” I would just flip it, because I think that’s a big part of our job. Even more so than that body image work, but embodiment work is validating that emotional needs and your basic human needs are your signals, are your data, and are what you need to be able to make your decisions.

And I think that’s the thing that we’ve gotten away from, which is probably part of the supremacist idea of flipping those, is making it feel like you don’t have to look at that right now. Because of course, if you’re not looking at that first, you’re going to do a lot of other things and then be so confused as to why it doesn’t feel good. Because you technically have everything on the bottom of the pyramid, but if you really looked at it you’d be like, “Oh, it doesn’t feel good, because I don’t have everything that I need to be able to have these other things.”

Jenn:

Yeah. To me, it’s like the American dream as a pyramid, where it’s just always out of reach.

Kymber:

Yeah.

Jenn:

Always.

Kymber:

Oh yeah.

Jenn:

But what if it’s not? What if that’s just a CIS, heteronormative, appropriated nonsense belief. So, thank you.

Kymber:

I feel like that’s the reason for the phrase American dream, because it doesn’t make space for your dream.

Chavonne:

Yeah. But you’re just buying into it.

Kymber:

It’s like, you want this, but no one ever says, I guess people do say chase your dreams, but they don’t really say live your dreams.

Chavonne:

Right.

Kymber:

They’re chase them, and achieve the American dream.

Chavonne:

Right.

Kymber:

Yeah. And it’s not.

Chavonne:

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Jenn:

But I’m trying to think of a quote. It’s George Bernard Shaw. Okay, I’m going to butcher it, but it’s life… Oh, I know what it is. “Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. If we self-actualize…” Okay, a white man in Europe said that. But if we create ourselves first, then there isn’t anything to find, because we’re just creating it. So there is no future, there’s just now.

And as you were talking about re-embodiment and these experiences that you’ve been having, I could just hear your presence in them. So I was already thinking that. Presence, now. That’s my favorite quote. I started putting it on my email. Every time I sent an email in 2006, the first time you could do that on an email something or other… I don’t know, email platform.

Chavonne:

Signature.

Jenn:

Yeah, thank you. The signature. I was like, “What is it called?” You know, the part where my name goes. What’s that called? You sign it. I’ve had it on there ever since. And I will see an email that comes back to me where someone replies and I’m like, “Oh, yeah.” It’s one of my favorite reminders. But I never think about it in this larger sense. I think about it like projects, and creativity, and actually creating things, but I rarely think of it as myself, my body image, my embodiment in that same place. But I’m just really connecting that right now. I don’t even know if I have connected that before, but definitely right now.

Kymber:

Oh, I think that’s beautiful. And I don’t know, Chavonne, if you had a comment, because I want to give you space before I say something.

Chavonne:

Yeah. No, I’m laughing internally, externally, whatever. Because as we were coming on to interview, I was telling my husband that we were, because I needed him to stop making noise before he left to do something outside of the house, that we were going to interview you. And he said, “You’ve met with her before, right?” And I was like, “Yeah, it was great, but I didn’t love it.” I was like, “Because she always makes me, I need to leave.” It’s this discomfort, in a good way though. You ask the most poignant questions, and the ones that just make me need to, I’ve got to go.

Kymber:

[inaudible] love.

Chavonne:

Yeah. Oh yeah, for sure. I was like, and I’m out. I’m going to, nope. I got to, nope. Okay, bye. So I was just sitting with that. I was looking forward to it. I wasn’t like, “Oh my God, I can’t do this.” But also, you’re just so skilled and at just creating this space of self-exploration in a way that I feel like if I sit with it long enough, my whole life is just about to blow up. And I don’t even know if that sounds right or weird, but it’s just a really great space to be in with you.

And I was thinking about the why not me, and imposter syndrome. I don’t know enough about rejection sensitivity dysphoria, so I don’t want to speak to that. But I’ve been talking about, now I really need to think about it because I’ve been talking a lot about imposter syndrome. And my therapist, who was on this show during our first season, she-

Kymber:

Love you, Sheila.

Chavonne:

… Love you, Sheila. She has me writing about how imposter syndrome is a reaction to white supremacy culture. So just thinking, why not me? Why not? So just this reaction to white supremacy culture, and how to kind of flip it. And I’m also thinking about Missy Elliot right now, because you keep saying flip it. So that song lives in my head for you almost every day anyway. But just flipping that, why not me? Why do I have to buy into this white supremacy culture of I can’t do this because I’m X or I’m not X. So I’m just really… And I think that’s a re-embodiment process in itself. So I’m just feeling very grateful for being in this space with you right now.

Kymber:

Oh my gosh, yes. I love that so much. And I love this. I love the excitement of discomfort.

Chavonne:

Yeah.

Kymber:

Sometimes the changes it brings up, it’s like that when someone’s sings happy birthday to you and you’re like… I think that’s a really cool feeling, because it’s just so much complexity to it. And as you’re saying that too, I was wondering, I think with rejection sensitivity, I heard on TikTok, I saw someone reframe it in a way that I thought was really interesting. Because I know that it’s still an under-researched part of neuro diversity, and I wonder if part of that is because it’s not really a dysphoria. I think that’s making it so that okay, we’re perceiving rejection wrong.

And I think we might be hypersensitive to it, but that’s only because it feels like a trauma response of all of the years of micro-aggressions. Of even internally, how we’re responding to rejection building up, so that we’re just always so guarded against it. And I think it’s the sense that something’s wrong, something could be wrong. And framing it as no, nothing’s actually wrong, doesn’t feel totally true to me because I’m like, something is wrong, but it was never you. It was things outside of you that feel wrong. But since we don’t understand that or control it, I think we come to an opposite conclusion.

And so I think that’s why when we think about, I love with that quote, when I think about it, I almost pictured a block of clay. And thinking more, as we become more of ourselves, as we start to understand our feelings and needs, it’s almost like shaving away those layers. So rather than sculpting something, building yourself from scratch, creating yourself, I think if you’re able to honor and understand your needs, yourself creates and shapes you. Because it’s always been there, that self is such a constant. And I really think the more that we listen to it, the more we’re able to shave away the things that are not us over time.

Jenn:

Yeah. Shaving away the masking, high masking especially, which takes so much of our lives and energy from us. This reminds me, so my mom loves Princess Diana. But more importantly now, Megan Markle. And so it’s always happening in my periphery that something is on about this. When Oprah interviewed Megan Markle, she said, “Were you silent, or were you silenced?” And I have not been able to stop thinking about that since, because that is how rejection sensitive dysphoria feels. Where it’s like, I’m silent. But actually, if I was to really look at it, the directionality was pointed at me. I wasn’t doing or not doing, I was receiving.

And we think about neuro diversity, and we think about eating disorders. There are so many structures and power dynamics that are just directed. To me, that’s like a modern version of that George Bernard Shaw quote, which is like, but what if we put this in oppressive language though? What if we really talked about the direction? I was thinking about that too, when you were just talking about that.

Kymber:

Yeah. Oh, that makes so much sense. And I really like looking at it that way. Because yeah, it’s one of those things that takes and puts the onus back on the system and the oppression. Because again, the person isn’t wrong. I really, really like thinking of it that way. And it’s also just very sad to think of it that way too.

Jenn:

Yeah.

Kymber:

And I think that’s one of the reasons that the more that we are able to separate from our needs and our emotions, and the things that our body communicates to us about who we are, the more space it leaves for the world and the systems we’re in to try to tell us who we are, and shape us with who we are. Which is why I think so many of us have to go through this embodiment journey after having been out of those systems for a little while.

Chavonne:

Oof. Yeah.

Jenn:

Yeah, oof.

Chavonne:

Yeah. I don’t actually have anything to say. I’m just…

Jenn:

I’m very present in this conversation.

Chavonne:

Yes.

Jenn:

In a way that I’m having to ask myself, do I have anything to say? Because I’m just very present in listening to it.

[51:53]

Chavonne:

Yeah. You are so great at narrating the process of embodiment. That reminds us of body image, and how that is a process too. Otherwise known as body imaging. So in being in process and practice about embodiment, and letting it flow with less resistance over time, do you notice a difference in intention that becomes momentum? So in other words, when we become purposeful about our practices, what do you notice naturally showing up to join along?

Kymber:

I think it becomes a lot harder to neglect yourself. I really think it does. Because the biggest thing that has changed for me, and that I think I can bring to every client, is self-compassion. And so, almost always, if I bring in the lens of okay, well what if this were your sister? Or I know you can’t think of anything to eat, what if your nephew was coming to visit tomorrow, what would you make him? And they can rattle something off. I think that’s just a really good indicator of how sometimes we discount ourselves.

But once you start to realize that it’s not within your value system to treat a human that way, and you really start to do the grieving process of understanding that you’ve been a victim of that, I think it just makes it a lot harder to neglect yourselves. And that’s not to say that’s how everyone feels, but I think that’s where the momentum starts to build is when you’re like, I am not feeling aligned with my values. And when you’re starting to re-humanize yourself, and say if I believe this for all people, and I am people, because you’re not special.

Chavonne:

I remember that from last time. You are not special.

Kymber:

Exactly.

Jenn:

Thank you Ellen, my therapist, for saying that to me.

Chavonne:

Oh, former therapist. She retired. Okay, sorry. I’m back.

Kymber:

Thank you, Ellen. Thanks for all you’ve done.

Jenn:

The best.

Kymber:

Yeah, so I think that’s one thing too. Even though I did my own, therapy has been really helpful. I was finally able to connect with a therapist I had a good fit with, shout out to Tatiana.

Jenn:

Yes. Yay Tatiana.

Chavonne:

All about good therapists on this episode.

Jenn:

Yes.

Kymber:

But yeah-

Chavonne:

Well, we wouldn’t be here without them. Yeah, I get it.

Kymber:

… It’s true. But I felt the difference. She’s neuro diverse, and sitting with a neuro diverse person, it’s been one of the reasons I’ve been able to stick with that. And her reframing my idea of self-compassion is one of the things that’s been really helpful for me to turn what I do for others inwards. Because I feel like even when I last talked to you all, I was kind of under the impression that because I don’t speak negatively to myself, I have self-compassion. That’s not the same thing. It’s actually treating yourself as you would any other human. And so that’s another thing that’s allowed me to start taking those breaks, or doing the things that I suggest to other people is remembering that I’m not special either.

Chavonne:

Oh, wow.

Jenn:

Wow. Thanks Tatiana.

Kymber:

Thanks Tatiana.

Jenn:

Re-humanize. Just like re-embody earlier, I like the re, the return. As this version of yourself that you are now, what do you think about past versions of you and-

Jenn:

… self that you are now, what do you think about past versions of you and how they treated you? What do you think about your current version of yourself and how you’re treating yourself compared to how you treat others? What’s the gap, gaps? I actually, for me, immediately thought of four gaps. So what are the gaps?

Chavonne:

Totally, the gaps.

Kymber:

Well, I think with rehumanization, it comes up because I know that all of this systems that we’re struggling against are rooted in dehumanization. Even the idea of divesting from your very own basic human needs and your cues and your emotions is trying to separate you from your humanity on an internal level and then on an external level with things like racism and oppression and fatphobia and sexism. Those are also dehumanizing techniques. I think that’s why embracing emotion and coming back home to that body trust can be rehumanizing. I think for me, when I look at the past versions of myself, they aren’t all myself, but I know a lot of them too, where me allowing some parts of myself to be a little bit more upfront, often back to that assimilation piece. I have a lot of compassion for every version of myself so far.

When I reflect, the more distance that I get from myself at different ages, the more I’m able to see little Kymber’s strengths and the ways that she might have had needs that were unmet and find so much appreciation for all of the different ways and versions of how I’ve shown up. I think for me, it reminds me that even though I might not always present constantly and consistently, one, the expectation to do so is probably also rooted in supremacy, the fact that there shouldn’t be evolution. But the other thing too is understanding that those weren’t necessarily inauthentic versions of me in every iteration, but that authentically, I am inconsistent and dynamic. That is a thread as to who I am and that my values have always been relatively consistent too even if I didn’t always have awareness of that.

Chavonne:

I love that.

Jenn:

We contain multitudes.

Chavonne:

Mm-hmm. There’s this duo, hip-hop/R&B, I guess, Floetry. One of their lyrics in one of their songs sits with me all the time, “I love the girl I used to be. Every step she took was reaching out to me,” and I think of that all the time. If I’m figuratively beating myself up for choices that I made or not “being where I’m supposed to be now,” she was just moving toward where I am now. That’s how I keep my compassion, my self-compassion. She was with us. She could. We’re all doing the best we can and she kept me safe the best way she could.

Kymber:

Yeah. Oh, and that’s so beautiful to me, looking at it that way. I was just thinking about that this morning. If I feel that way now about myself five years ago, how will myself from five years be looking at me, and [inaudible] probably also be with just as much, if not more compassion and appreciation. As far as I know, this is my first time here as a human and so I feel like we have to give ourselves grace like every day, I’m doing something for the first time for the most part. I’m the oldest I’ve ever been. I’m the youngest I’ll ever be again and I don’t really know everything. That’s creating those gaps and understanding that, yeah, you can’t do it all at once.

You can’t learn all at once and you can expect that of a young person. I think that’s another thing too about moving through life that gives you perspective is knowing now like, oh, my gosh, at the time, I might have beaten myself up for that choice. I’d be like, “I’m 20. I should know better,” or whatever it is. Now looking back, I’m like, 20 is [inaudible].

Chavonne:

Right?

Kymber:

When I see on the Bachelor, they’re like, “Oh, I’m Karen. I’m 23 in California.” I’m like, 23? Girl, you’re going to consider marrying a stranger? What’s happening?

Chavonne:

Girl baby, yeah.

Kymber:

But watching them at 16, I was like, yes, maturity, ready for their life’s journey. They’re ready to find the one. You think about things like that. That’s also no shame to anyone who gets married young, but just having that perspective of, oh, I didn’t know what I didn’t know then and I certainly don’t know what I don’t know now yet.

Chavonne:

Yeah. Absolutely. This is really sitting with me and we might have this conversation with Tiana Dodson when she comes back. As you were talking about reembodiment, so I have two kids and I have two sisters who have a child. One of them was talking about this process of finding herself again. I remember when I had my two. After you get through the zombie part of your life where you’re not sleeping and you can’t even make complete sentences and everything is terrible… I’m sorry, I love toddlers. Newborns are really hard for me. They’re not terrible, but they were for me. They’re wonderful children, but I cannot sleep. I’m just a nightmare to everyone in my life. But I remember saying I don’t even know who I was before that. I think that as I’m sitting with this reembodiment idea, it’s not just getting back to where you were, but integrating all these little… becoming a mom. Marries two men in my life. I was going to say I have a second husband now, but I’m remarried.

Jenn:

Yay!

Kymber:

[inaudible].

Chavonne:

I’m about to say I’m marrying two men [inaudible] bigamy. No, I didn’t do that. All these little pieces that have happened in the last 38, almost 39 years of my life, that to me is reembodiment more than just like, who was I when I was four years old and I really wanted to be a ballet, learn how to do ballet? It’s this integration. That’s the word that keeps popping into my head, which isn’t always my favorite word because it makes me think of segregation, but in this case, it’s like you said. There is this form of segregation like I said when I had tiny thoughts and I wasn’t sleeping. There was no self-care. I was just like, I just need to basically drink a pot of coffee every day and just survive. Now, I can have more conversations with myself. Now I can do more, actually take more showers, whatever. But it’s what you do to survive in that moment and it’s all about trying to find those pieces and bringing them home, like you said, coming home. It’s just really powerful. That’s sitting with me right now.

Kymber:

Oh, yeah. I love you sharing that because I feel like the biggest disservice we do to ourselves is assuming that everything has to stay similar. Our capacity is to show up the same, our personality has to show up the same. I think that’s part of the body image challenges that we see too, is just a lot of people chasing this body center that they had, the further they get away from it like when I was like, oh, you’re comparing me to your 14-year-old self.

Chavonne:

Right.

Kymber:

I’m 20 years. I don’t know if this sounds too cheesy and forced, but when you were saying that, it made me think of the egg again. I was like, the egg is always an egg, but you can prepare it 10,000 different ways in order to meet the functions that you have, but it never takes away what it is. You could be a hard-boiled egg when you need to be on the go and more mobile. You could be an over easy egg when you’re ready to sit. You can be an omelet when you need something different. It could be in a burrito when you need something different. I know no one ever says that’s not an egg because it wasn’t like that the last time I saw one. So I think that’s the other thing too, is making space for evolutions that people don’t feel like they have to stay the same all the time.

Chavonne:

I love peacocks. I love turtles, but I really think in that moment, you just made me become an egg person. I can see myself decorating and having eggs on things. You can be all kinds of things, but you’re still an egg. Today, I’m going to be hard-boiled. I’m already like, what am I going to do in my kitchen? I love this. I really, really love it. That’s just the coolest metaphor. That is so, so, so, so neat. I love it. I love it. Thank you. Egg salad. Now I’m just thinking about eggs, but that’s just-

Jenn:

Oh, I love egg salad.

Chavonne:

… all the things. So cool. Thank you. It was awesome. Thank you.

Jenn:

It’s like home and returning newly.

Kymber:

Yeah.

Jenn:

That even though it is technically a return to yourself, it’s this version of yourself. It’s this evolution of yourself. It’s this reflective space within yourself, whatever you have access to at that time. I love just the idea of how each of us having our own personal egg curtain that we’re opening and like, what today? What today’s self? Why not me? Why not this egg?

Kymber:

Yes.

Jenn:

I love it.

Chavonne:

Oh, so cool.

Kymber:

Oh, my God. Wait.

Chavonne:

So cool.

Kymber:

Jenn, when you said that, I just had this vision, this picture of a cabin pop in my mind and I was like, a home that never is maintained and changes doesn’t feel like a home. It feels like a dusty relic. If you walk into a home that hasn’t changed in 20 years, it hasn’t been dusted, that hasn’t been looked at or cleaned or moved around or had new things, it doesn’t actually feel like home. It feels like a museum that’s something in the past. So that change, I think is the thing that keeps embodiment feeling like coming home.

Chavonne:

Wow.

Jenn:

Okay, I’m writing that down.

Chavonne:

Wow. Me too. Okay. Wow, that’s really powerful.

Jenn:

Mm-hmm. The silence here is me writing this down. Yeah, change is the only constant. It’s such a repeated thing in so many areas of life and just people talking to each other. It’s a thing we fear the most, eating disorders we’re trying to protect that person from. It’s a thing that it’s okay to be hesitant about. In that cabin analogy, I was like, yeah, you have to go and visit your cabin and see what it’s like. Is it dank and musky now? Are these the flower couches from the ’70s? What do you need now? Are these minimal walls and do they need to be maximalist walls now? What do you need in that space to get to know yourself?

Chavonne:

Mm-hmm.

Kymber:

Yes. And even if you need that space to look the same for now, you still deserve to treat it with respect.

Chavonne:

Totally.

Kymber:

You’re still not going to go sit in the dust and cobwebs of that cabin even if you don’t change a thing about it. You’re going to maintain it.

Chavonne:

Mm-hmm.

Jenn:

We always have the choice to no change.

Kymber:

Mm-hmm.

Chavonne:

Yeah.

Kymber:

That’s the change in and of itself, even if nothing especially changes. I think we truly can’t be present without it. It just doesn’t. That equation doesn’t add up.

Jenn:

Mm-hmm.

Chavonne:

Mm-hmm. It feels really rebellious, even radical to think of. I’ve made this decision to not change, especially in this society, we’re recording in the United States, in this society of… I don’t even think we have international listeners. I don’t know why I said that.

Jenn:

We do. We do.

Chavonne:

What?

Jenn:

Australia, the UK, someone in Russia.

Kymber:

Shout out to the community. Hello.

Jenn:

Whoever you are, I’m very excited whenever I see the little tick of one person that I never would’ve imagined where they came from. I don’t know how you-

Chavonne:

I was just like, do we? I love it. So we’re recording in the United States and we live in this society that is always telling us, like you said, the American dream, aim higher, whatever higher might mean, aim further, more, more, more, more. It’s a really radical decision to say, “No. I’m here. This is where I need to be right now.” That’s huge. That’s huge.

Jenn:

Oh, my gosh, you just made me think of the Daft Punk song, Harder, Faster, Better, Stronger, I think is the title, and how that song, the beat of that, if I am feeling in a no change mood, I can’t even listen to that song because I’m like, this is so intense because I just can’t go with the rhythm of that song. Then other times, I put it on on purpose. I was obsessed with Daft Punk. I knew the coffee shop they drank at in LA and I would try to go, just be there. I’m like, are they going to be in their helmets? I don’t know. I’m just going to see. But anyways, that song, I used to study to it a lot. But I just started noticing when I really started to get to know myself that even a suggestion of Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger, or whatever it is, but I was like, no, no, no, no.

Don’t talk to me about that even to a song, where it’s like, no, I just want to be here. I want to be with this. I don’t want to do any of that. You just reminded me of that.

Chavonne:

Wow.

Jenn:

I love how we’re all like quotes and songs.

Chavonne:

I know.

Jenn:

Because those are very embodying to me, so that makes sense that they’re showing up and I’m really enjoying them. I was even thinking of the Nelson Mandela quote when he comes out of prison and he was talking about how he was different, but the world was the same. He wasn’t there for a short time. He was there for a very long time and his experience of reembodying himself in the world was totally changed. I think it’s, “There’s nothing like returning to a place that remains unaltered to see the ways in which you have changed.” I never remember quotes right. I don’t know why I can today, but thank you, brain.

Chavonne:

Yeah.

Jenn:

Life is about creating yourself, not finding yourself. It’s like, okay, I’m totally different now, so how do I fit or not fit in this place I was before? Is this the place for me anymore? Can I still relate to the things I used to relate to or is everything just different now? Spoiler alert, he answered his own question. Everything was different now. It just wasn’t the same anymore, so he wanted to change it. But I love that. Those are my favorites.

Chavonne:

It’s the therapist that’s sitting really hard and I wonder if it’s the same. Sorry I interrupted. I jumped over you in excitement.

Jenn:

Yes. Do it.

Chavonne:

I don’t know if it’s the same for dieticians because it makes you think of the holidays when clients have such a hard time. I’ve said it myself. I go back to El Paso for Christmas and I’m 16 years old. The minute I hit that city line, I’m like, I’m 22 years younger. I think it makes me think of that like you’re going back to this place where whether your parents have changed or not, at least for me, I feel like I have this expectation to be who I was when I lived there until I was 18. So no wonder stuff kicks up when you return to your place, not your base, but what was a base for quite some time.

Kymber:

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. That’s incredible. I feel very much the same way when I go home for the holidays. I feel like I’m always hypersensitive for clients around the holidays too, being like, “Okay, it’s October. How are we feeling and [inaudible]?”

Chavonne:

How are you doing? What’s your safety plan? How can you get the fuck out of there if you need to? Yeah.

Kymber:

Exactly. I’m like, are we coping ahead?

Chavonne:

Exactly. Yes. Mm-hmm.

Jenn:

I love what just came up in answering that previous question because it so relates to the next question so, so, so much.

Chavonne:

I thought you’d asked it.

[1:12:43]

Jenn:

Not intentionally, but I’m just realizing now how connected they are. When I was writing this, this particular one, just the flow out of me was really fun. I could already see us together doing it because they’re just thinking about what we already explored and also, we didn’t get to explore, what we were just talking about different versions of us like reembodiment can be from a perspective of change or no change, all of that, and thinking about the different stages of life, our inner children because there’s more than one of us. I don’t know if that works for me. Our inner child or children, our rebellious teenager parts and young adult parts especially, really show up to me in this conversation about embodiment, times of major growth and change as a little individual person. Kymber, how do you see these complexities that live within us, these different parts of us showing up in embodiment work? We have already talked about this. I’m just curious if asking it this way brings anything else forward.

Kymber:

Oh, yeah. I am obsessed with internal family systems theory. I feel like it’s such a great way that I’ve been able to think about myself and it’s been a great window into compassion too, to understand. Again, I’m not an inconsistent person. I just have sometimes different parts, which have learned to help me in different ways. I think a lot of our disordered eating and body image struggles can be rooted in those younger and teenage, young adult parts of ourselves, a lot of times because I think that’s where a lot of seeds are planted around insecurity and feeling different and feeling othered and just having a lot of sensitivity to rejection and wanting to be accepted.

I think one thing that shows up in terms of body image with that is just again, a lot of people’s body ideal that they chase really being rooted in the body ideals of maybe 13 or tween peers or self, because that’s one of the first times that’s popped up as I’m different. I need that, even though as adults, when you look back and you look at a photo of teens, you’re like, they all look the same to me, but [inaudible 01:11:14].

Chavonne:

Mm-hmm. Everybody’s angsty. Everybody’s the same.

Kymber:

Yes. Exactly. The time, little differences feel like big differences, I think, and so that’s why I feel like a lot of our eating disorder parts can feel like almost that teenage self. I notice one way that I explore this is by assessing client’s attachment styles. I notice it often. There’s a connection to parenthood and childhood and sometimes trying to feel like that adult, that teenage part, that teenage version of yourself is in that phase of struggling to find the balance between still having a lot of needs to be cared for, that means they’re undermet, and wanting to be strongly independent, maybe connecting with the first one because of wanting to be able to care for yourself hyper-individually. I think when I see people with a lot of strong teenage parts and resistance and rebellion, it sometimes shows up as resistance to any kind of self-parenting.

For example, saying like, “Well, you said you would make your nephew a snack. Why wouldn’t you make you a snack?” I’m thinking of a few people in particular who when we get to the root of it, it’s this fear of being disappointed or let down. They’re like, “I can’t start to care for myself because if I do, I’ll be let down. I’ll let myself down when I can’t continue to do it.” I think a lot of times, that pattern is rooted in that teenage part of self because that’s just true when you’re a teenager. You can’t necessarily live on your own even though there are ways you’re growing on your own, and especially if you had emotionally immature parents. That’s going to be where a lot of your challenges, I think, start to really become apparent to you even if they’re not showing up on the outside.

One way I really like to work with that part is first, by honoring it and providing it with respect and compassion and listening just like you would working with a teenager, is not undervaluing them. But also too, for my clients who have attachment challenges or who I noticed were probably raised in an emotionally mature household, I really highly recommend this book, Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents. It’s really excellent. I think it offers a lot of insight into some of those thinking patterns. I think just identifying, helping people identify those parts in the driver’s seat is really important because it lets people see, okay, that’s why I can maybe show up at work and feel like a capable adult, but when I go home for Christmas, I literally feel like I shrink. It’s like, what is that? So even just empowering people to understand those parts of themselves and then come back to the idea of self-parenting doesn’t have to be scary because now you actually do have the tools. You do have the support. You actually are an adult.

I think it has been just really interesting to explore and sidebar, exploring that as a dietician and normalizing that that’s something within our scope to explore, not because of our nutrition credentials, but because of our human credentials.

Chavonne:

Mm-hmm.

Jenn:

Okay. Absolutely. Yes. Yes. Thinking today about the words that have hyper in the front, hypersensitivity, hyper-individually, these sorts of things, something I’ve been playing with recently is how we can really notice that stress hormones are involved when that word hyper is there in front of another word as a body experience. I’m not safe. Of course, our sensitivity has become hypersensitive. We have not been given an opportunity to have our own autonomy or collaborate with parents or even a model to do that with ourselves, so of course, we’re hyper-individual. I don’t know, something in the way that you were just saying that now, Kymber, was making me think how normal, present, and human that is in this society we live in now if we’re talking about any kind of diversity or overlapping and intersectional diversity, even more so because all of those different oppressions or invitations for suppression in ourselves are inviting that hyper state that’s really trying to protect us and keep us safe and secure, but it doesn’t really do the job it intended to do because of just on a body level of the stress hormones.

I was saying that because I was just thinking how difficult in my high-masking younger self it must have been, because I don’t really have a memory of it because I was very high-masked. I don’t even know if I have a memory of this, but just having some compassion for younger me who was in that just sitting in a stress space all the time that I didn’t know what I needed.

Kymber:

Oh, yeah. You can’t really hear your needs when you’re in a state of distress at all, but that distress becomes so normalized that I think that’s why our sensitivity has to ratchet up. Just like you said, Jenn, is our body’s trying to adapt to protect us because I think our bodies have a sense that something’s not right. But again, it’s very much so normalized that we have to find other ways to cope with that that feel more within our sphere of control. I think that idea of hypersensitivity, hyper-individuality, I think it’s all very much a response to having those things shut down. It’s that pendulum effect that we almost see with the feast and famine cycle. It’s like, do you have a famine of sensitivity like our society does? Or a famine of, let’s say, individuality diversity like ours doesn’t honor, then of course, it’s going to start to show up in a swinging way. It’s very much a basic need, just like the need for foods where our brains are going to start that pendulum swing to try to help it-

Kymber:

… our brains are going to start that pendulum swing to try to help us come back to where it probably feels naturally safe.

Jenn:

Ooh. The rebound.

Chavonne:

Wow.

Jenn:

Dang.

Chavonne:

Yeah.

Jenn:

That’s generally what my thoughts have been, by the way. I just keep going, “Dang,” in my head. I just let that one out but I just keep thinking, “Dang.”

Chavonne:

Dang indeed.

Jenn:

In the best way, I do not mean that in a negative way.

Chavonne:

Totally not. I don’t even know what to say. I mean, this is great. I’m just thinking of hypervigilance as protection, all the hypers as protection. It’s just blowing my mind a bit right now.

Kymber:

Oh my gosh.

Chavonne:

In a good way, like Jenn said.

Kymber:

Oh wow.

Chavonne:

Definitely. Yeah. Wow.

Kymber:

Are there other hypers that you all notice as a re-correction?

Jenn:

Hypervigilance, hyperawareness, hypermonitoring and surveillance. I call it hypermasking. High masking is the clinical term but I could say hypermasking because it feels rebound-ish to me. Also, hyperemotional eating is what I sit with when we’re talking about emotional eating that’s a rebound to bring some understanding.

Chavonne:

Oh. Wow.

Kymber:

That makes a lot of sense. I think that’s the thing that gets the wires crossed because then you’re told, “Oh, I can’t trust my body,” where it’s like, “No, this is the deepest sign that you can trust your body,” that your body will go through these lengths to make you get what you need. Your body’s identified a deficit and it’s so clear on what your needs are, that it is rewiring you from the inside out to try to get those met because we’re not bringing that consciousness and intentionality to it that you were talking about earlier. That’s why I’m like, “You can’t neglect yourself because you take what you need or your body takes it for you.”

Jenn:

Oof. Ooh. Hard truth but super, super true.

Chavonne:

Yeah, yeah. Wow. Absolutely. Oof. Gosh. Should I go to the?

Jenn:

Yeah.

Chavonne:

Yeah. Okay. We’ll go to the next question as I’m sitting here.

Jenn:

I just wanted to leave space for you if there was anything else there.

Chavonne:

No, like you said, hypers, hyperarousal will help… I was thinking hyperresponsiveness which I actually don’t think is a term but having very intense responses to things is something that’s really popping up for me so I’m just sitting with that. Yeah.

Jenn:

Ooh, and hyper-

Chavonne:

Explosive responses. Yeah.

Jenn:

Yeah. I was going to say hyperexplosive, hyperviolent in thoughts. Also, hyper… Oh, shoot. What was I thinking? Oh no. I lost it. Oh my gosh. I lost it but there was one that I was just thinking of.

Chavonne:

There was one. One more hyper. It’ll come to you. You’ll text it like 2:00 in the morning, “Hyper!”

Kymber:

I remember it! Oh yeah, it was hypermemory. It was hyperfocus.

Chavonne:

Yeah.

Jenn:

Oh, that is it. That was it. Wait, that was it. Hyperfixation and hyperfocus, they are responses to the environment of a neurodivergent person not being able to have their intellectual, emotional, connected informational needs met and also not feeling safe in your environment. Not feeling safe in yourself. And so, many things with neurodivergence are called hyper, even rejection sensitivity dysphoria, I forgot its original name but it was very similar to hysteria but it always sits in a place of who perceived… Hyper, the word is actually used to mean too much. Welcome to the Too Much Club. Thank you, Ellen, my therapist who is now retired, who is like, “Why? The Too Much Club is amazing. That’s where we should all be,” right? Too caring, too interested, what’s wrong with these things? That’s very inspiring and connecting. So hyper is a thing that says, “Hey, you shouldn’t be that,” culturally. That’s pathologized but what if it’s just a stress response? It just starts to make sense as you have been describing. Just thinking about re-humanizing, that even as we’re playing with this, that hyper feels like a re-humanization. I’m just realizing right now.

Kymber:

Yeah. Oh yeah. I feel like with all of these, the hyper, it’s focused on but there’s almost always an accompanying hypo. There’s almost always a shadowed side of that. And so, you look at the hyper but it’s like the hypo is your environment being like, “I can’t focus in this environment so I am very much going to figure out a way to cope with that,” and the hypo might be the other swing of, “Well, now, after I do this, I have to shut down,” or… Because I think it does feel like that hypoic freeze mode when you are disconnecting so much to be able to focus. There’s almost always another side of the coin even the hypervigilance. Other side of that coin for me is can be impulsivity and hypo, go with the flow. It’s very much refining that, letting that pendulum settle, and just because they swing so wildly over time, I think it just takes a long time to settle because the gaps between them are so wide.

Jenn:

Ooh. Scarcity mindset which was coming to mind earlier when you were talking about this too. The hypo states are all scarcity places. Under stimulation as a form of dysregulation is a scarcity mindset place. Our body’s like, “I don’t know if we can continue paying attention to everything. What if we run out of energy? We better just shut it all off.”

Kymber:

Yeah, 100%.

Chavonne:

Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

Jenn:

Yeah.

[1:27:52]

Chavonne:

For our next question, the expansive nature of conversations about embodiment also speaks to what’s next? How does that aspect show up for you? Does it feel exhausting to always be looking at what’s next? We talked about this a little bit but I’d like to hear more. Does it feel like it keeps interest and curiosity going? I’d love to hear about what drives and hinders this process from your perspective as well.

Kymber:

Yeah. Ooh, and I don’t know. I wonder is that speaking to what’s next with body image or just that general question of what’s next that feels asked a lot societally?

Jenn:

Both.

Kymber:

Both? Yeah.

Chavonne:

That’s a good question. I don’t know. Let’s go with both.

Kymber:

Yeah. Both. Well, I think with body image and with societal expectations, I’ve stopped asking what’s next so much because it tends to find me and I think that’s really nice. I think that’s also something that I am working on is being in a place where I’m like, “Oh, I love the fact that if I just stay open, opportunities find me and I get the chance to step into them and say yes to them,” and that’s really been something that’s been helpful career-wise and in just continuing to move forward.

But at the same time, I think that’s a place where if you’re not assessing what you really want, you are getting led in a lot of directions and it’s hard to assess the what’s next in terms of what would I do if no one told me what to do next? I think you can get stuck with that. And so, bringing that into a body story, I think, again, holding space for the fact that there can be evolution in terms of the goals that people see themselves getting to.

I wonder if we always need to be planning for what’s next. I think there’s a difference in coping ahead versus trying to map out the future in this very specific way. So one thing that I can struggle with is long-term goal setting because bringing it back to that ADHD brain, I don’t always know what’s going to interest me until it does and I don’t always know what my capacity for something is going to be until I’m there.

And so, in the past year, I’ve told my boss, I’m like, “I’m going to just go get my doctorate,” and she’s like, “Okay,” and I’m like, “I went to Hawaii,” and she’s like, “Okay,” and I’m like, “I’m going to be a CLC,” and she’s like, “Yep. Okay.” I’m like, “Yeah. I’m going to do those things,” and then she’s like, “So how’s it going?” and I’m like, “Oh, I forgot I said I was going to do that.” Thankfully, I have a practice that is very much embracing of my neurodiversity and that’s actually been supportive and rewarding of it too and allowed that to actually be the thing that they use to validate me and build me up and help me move forward and make these natural areas of growth for what’s next. I became a supervisor recently and also exploring other [inaudible]. And so, it’s very exciting to be thinking about what’s next but I also am tentative about creating a vision that I have to step into versus seeing what happens. So I don’t know if that answers the question but I’ll leave some time to pause.

Chavonne:

I think it did perfectly. It makes complete sense to me. It’s hard to find that balance.

Jenn:

Yeah, and the perch of where you asked about keeping interest and curiosity going that I could actually hear that you keep your interest and curiosity and inspire yourself in a way by coming back to your own idea but you forgot it. It’s like I was saying earlier with the questions, I’m like, “I wrote this? Well, anyway, I really like this question.” But for you it’s like, “I said that?” and you have to reconsider it again and I love that returning to ideas, goals, values, plans, everything. Love it.

Kymber:

Oh yeah. I feel like that’s very aligned with my guiding values for this year are authenticity and evolution and I feel like-

Chavonne:

Ooh. I was going to ask what they were. Nice.

Kymber:

Yeah. That’s my compass and I’m like, “That’s all I need,” because even if I can’t see exactly two or three steps ahead, I can use that compass to check in and see, “Is this where I want to go next?” or if I’m unfulfilled, I’ll know it. Because under simulation feels like burning sometimes so I know when I need a change, I know when I need more, and I know that diversifying what comes next for me is something that recharges me a lot of the time too.

So not feeling a need to stick with a linear path in any direction is helpful and I feel like I bring that into my work in terms of, sometimes I’ll have people do an assignment or something or we’ll be working on a body image timeline, and then we’ll pivot because what they need changes. And so, we’ll come back to it in two months and then I’m like, “Oh yeah.” And so, going into this non-linear what’s next, I feel like that like in an Olympic pool of being like we might be moving in very different lanes but always changing in terms of when we’re examining what’s next and having that compass of, “Even if we’re in a different lane, is this still aligned to my values?”, I think, is really helpful for letting what’s next become an opportunity instead of an obligation.

Chavonne:

You have such a gift for metaphor. That was awesome. Really awesome. I love that. I really do. I think it’s a gift for your clients too, I would imagine, to not be like, “This is what’s on the curriculum. Duh duh duh.” Like, “No, here’s what happened this week. Let’s talk about it.” I think that’s really cool. That’s really, really cool.

Kymber:

Exactly. Yeah.

Chavonne:

Very expansive. Sorry.

Jenn:

Yeah. No, I’m sorry.

Kymber:

Beautiful.

Jenn:

Especially because obligation is a major promoter of rejection sensitivity dysphoria and feelings of imposter syndrome. So when you said obligation becomes opportunity, it’s like we can just try again. We can just go back to it. We can just leave it. We can just come back. It’s not flippant, it’s flexible, and I appreciate that.

Kymber:

Yeah. Well, and the difference is autonomy and choice. Yes, it just is.

Jenn:

Yes.

Kymber:

And making room for change, so allowing yourself to know it’s an opportunity, not an obligation if I know that I can change my mind or that I can change how it looks and that, again, stems from self-advocacy and self-awareness of just knowing I have the choice to advocate for myself or the say to not have this be an obligation, it’s really, really empowering.

[1:45:21]

Jenn:

You are the perfect segue bringer as well. Not just analogies but also segue. So body autonomy, choices, personal agency, using your voice, safety, “Am I okay?”, security, “Do I have enough? Are things not scarce?”, all seem to be naturally a part of embodiment conversations to be intrinsic to them. From a diversity affirming approach, which I know that you take and a justice and liberation lens, how do all of these topics show up for you in your work, in your life, and in your ongoing embodiment journey? Again, you’ve answered this question basically but I’m curious what comes up here.

Kymber:

Yeah. Oh my gosh. Well, they’re important topics and they’re so tough which is probably also why I probably went a little bit somewhere else in my mind for that minute is just being like, “Oh yeah, I live in America. It’s so annoying.” Also, some privilege but still it’s dwindling. So I think that you can’t really talk about these topics without embracing the changes and the social justice aspect that it brings, at least I can’t. I’m sure there are a lot of people who can work in a different way but for me, they feel just so deeply intertwined that your disordered eating, your body challenges are rooted in social justice and rooted in dehumanization. They’re rooted in oppression and in the erasure of diversity and the attempts to erase diversity. And so, I really, really think it’s impossible to have those conversations without it and one way that we bring that in is just making space for it.

Again, sometimes that’s as simple as reminding myself and reminding my clients that I’m a human first and a dietician second. And so, if this is the space where we need to come back to this and to talk about this and food doesn’t get mentioned once for three weeks, that’s okay because I’m here for your needs. And so, I’m really thinking of what happened with Roe v. Wade. It was definitely an interesting time to be in practice and how much a lot of what I focused on in the conversations after that were assessing, “Where do people maybe feel out of control here? Where do they feel like their autonomy has changed? Where do they feel like their relationship with their body, that might have been healing, might now be more threatened?” because you’re maybe having access to information where you’re learning your body might not be safe for you if something happens to it.

And so, I really think that all of these conversations, they’re part of the movement. All these different intersections and movements that we’re seeing, I really feel like we’re unbraiding all of the different systems that have contributed to that erasure of individuality in order to foster supremacy. So things like feminism or untangling that erasure of all of gender identity, things like the fat positive, body positive movements or untangling the erasure effect, the inevitability of size diversity, things like addressing healthism, addressing racism. It seems like they’re separate movements but it’s only because they started from the same route. When you get back to it, you’re like, “Oh. Yep, they’re all tangled.”

And so, I think it’s really important and I think for me, it’s actually part of informed consent to talk about those things with my clients of all identities. It’s part of our informed consent because the systems, even the medical systems, especially the medical systems sometimes that we’re working within, I think there’s this idea that because we can’t see the past that contributed to them as clearly, that they’re inevitable or that they’ve always been around but they’re not. They’re also human made systems and I just think it’s really important to be able to understand that and unpack that as time goes on in order to heal your own body story to see, “What are the ways I have shoehorned myself into these systems? What are the ways I’ve internalized these voices?” so that we can start to find your own again.

And so, I think that is another reason that it’s part of your informed consent because otherwise, you might just be thinking like, “Oh, I’m working with a system that got co-opted as racist,” versus, like that thing of BMI in particular, versus being like, “Outdated, started racism.” That’s something you should know if you want to have the informed consent of understanding whether or not that number is something you want to use to guide your health choices.

Chavonne:

Wow.

Jenn:

Back to your analogy about World War I, if you just make everything an average, it makes it inherently more unsafe for everyone.

Kymber:

Yeah. Everyone else in that bell curve.

Jenn:

Wow. I love this unbraiding, untangling analogy and speaking to the directionality and on purposeness, if that’s… That’s not a word but I’m going to say on purposeness that it was braided, it was tangled.

Kymber:

Yeah.

Jenn:

It’s not inevitable because we can unbraid and we can untangle so thank you for that language because I haven’t been able to quite find an analogy for that so I really appreciate… My brain has been waiting for that one so thank you.

Chavonne:

Yeah. That was really powerful. Again, amazing metaphor always. Just such a gift of metaphor, really do.

Jenn:

Speaking in analogy and metaphor is so important for cognitive flexibility and neuroplasticity. In other words, our ability to learn and do things different and to even have the momentum within us be more supportive of things being newer and different. And so, I love that. Living for it.

Chavonne:

That’s amazing. Yeah.

Kymber:

And it’s form of storytelling, which helps with our memory and speaks to our emotional reasoning as well. I think it uses more of our senses sometimes because we’re able to see the thing we’re talking about or hear it or feel it emotionally. I think that’s very much a skill that’s highlighted by neurodiverse people is being able to bring those stories together because we see all these connections. I think, also coming back to what we were saying, the unbraiding, I think, really speaks to why intersectionality is so important is because if you ever tried to unbraid a braid by only taking one strand and undoing it, it doesn’t work. And so, that’s-

Jenn:

It does not-

Chavonne:

Not at all, no.

Kymber:

It does not and that’s why I think, hopefully, we’re moving in a direction where everyone’s realizing the importance of that is even if you feel like your expertise or your strength or your compassion lies strongly in one area or even if your capacity is limited to one area, that by just understanding that you still have to maybe move and flow through the untangling of that braid with everyone else is really important.

Chavonne:

That’s incredible. Oh my gosh. That’s amazing. I don’t have anything else to say. That’s just really, really cool.

Jenn:

Me neither. That was an exclamation point.

[1:42:50]

Chavonne:

Right. So Kymber, as we are closing out this interview, what do you have going on for 2023? What are you looking forward to? What’s going on for your work as well?

Kymber:

Ooh. Well, I’m really looking forward to just continuing to live by these guiding values and see where that takes me this year, authenticity and evolution. I’m really excited to just keep doing some of that deeper iceberg work which I’ve now learned is more top priority work, of course and really excited to keep traveling. Super excited to plan travel and to keep going where I want to go.

I’m excited for summer and patios and paddleboarding and all of those good things, sours. So yeah, I have a lot of things that I’m just looking forward to about 2023 but really just looking forward to continuing to become more myself every day and to embrace and appreciate who I am and understand who I am outside of the context of other people. That’s what I’m hoping to do more of.

Within work, just continuing to let all of those things that are shining through in my personal growth shine through in the ways that I am with people and that I help them support themselves and that includes my clinicians as that challenge grows, moving up in leadership, and that includes my clients.

Yeah. So I really just appreciate you all for creating the space today for such an incredible and fluid conversation because I know you kept saying that was said well or whatever it is but I feel like it could only come to me in this environment that you’ve created.

Chavonne:

Thank you so much. This was incredible. I feel like Cages. I’m like, “I just got to go watch my world-

Jenn:

The series-

Chavonne:

Get rolled up in the best possible way.” Yeah.

Jenn:

We need to process together after.

Chavonne:

Yeah.

Jenn:

So this wasn’t just first of our interviews this season, it’s our first deep dive where we’re like, “Let’s go deeper.” Even just now when you were describing your year ahead, I could hear everything deepening in your descriptions so I love that parallel aspect of that. It was very cool.

Chavonne:

So cool. Very cool.

Jenn:

Thank you for being here and coming back again.

Chavonne:

Thank you so, so, so much. Yes, yes.

Kymber:

Thank you, guys, for having me.

Chavonne:

This was amazing. Thank you.

Kymber:

Thank you so much. This was wonderful. I can’t wait to talk to you all again, recorded or not recorded. We got a lot of-

Jenn:

That’s right.

Chavonne:

Absolutely.

Jenn:

That’s absolutely right. We love you and thank you so much for being here with us.

Chavonne:

Thank you. Thank you.

Kymber:

Thank you.

Jenn:

Bye.

Chavonne:

Bye.

Jenn: Thank you for listening to Season 3 of the Embodiment for the Rest of Us podcast. Episodes will be published every two weeks-ish (let’s be real!) wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also find the podcast at our website, EmbodimentForTheRestOfUs.com.

Chavonne: And follow us on social media, on both Twitter @EmbodimentUs and on Instagram @EmbodimentForTheRestOfUs. We look forward to being with you again next time in this evolving conversation.