Season 2 Episode 12 – Wrap-Up | Embodiment for the Rest of Us

In this show, we interview professionals and those with lived experience alike, to learn how they are affecting radical change and how we can all make this world a safer and more welcoming place for those living in larger bodies and those historically marginalized who should be centered, listened to, and supported.

Chavonne McClay:

Captions and content warnings are provided in the show notes for each episode, including specific timestamps so that you can skip triggering content any time that feels supportive to you.

Jenn Jackson:

This podcast is a representation of our co-host and guest experiences and may not be reflective of yours. These conversations are not medical advice and are not a substitute for mental health or nutrition support.

Chavonne McClay:

In addition, the conversations held here are not exhaustive in scope or depth. These topics, these perspectives, are not complete and are always in process. These are just highlights. Just like posts on social media or any other podcast, this is just a glimpse.

Jenn Jackson:

We are always interested in any feedback on this process if something needs to be addressed. You can email us at listener, L-I-S-T-E-N-E-R, @embodimentfortherestofus.com. And now for today’s episode.

Jenn Jackson:

Hello, and welcome to our final episode of season two of The Embodiment For The Rest of Us podcast. Yay!

Chavonne McClay:

Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! We’re in a silly, silly mood today, everyone.

Jenn Jackson:

So silly. Talking about serious-

Chavonne McClay:

We’ve been talking about musicals for the last hour and a half. We’re even recording.

Jenn Jackson:

Yep. So, that’s where we’re coming from. That was great.

Chavonne McClay:

So good.

Jenn Jackson:

So, good. We wanted to wrap up this season with an exploration of our podcast themes and talk about what is to come.

Chavonne McClay:

That would be embodiment and the Rest of Us.

Jenn Jackson:

Yes. So, what do you think about exploring how these topics have evolved with and for us over the last two seasons? By the way, I love this question.

Chavonne McClay:

Well, you should. You wrote it.

Jenn Jackson:

We have some-

Chavonne McClay:

Sounds great. Let’s do it.

Jenn Jackson:

… we have a dear friend who will be on the next season of our podcast who loves that we write the questions and also talk about how great the questions are. So, shout out to Vaughn.

Chavonne McClay:

Hi, Vaughn. I think it sounds great. Let’s do it.

Jenn Jackson:

Let’s do it. So, let’s start with embodiment. How do you think and feel about embodiment now?

Chavonne McClay:

I still love the word embodiment. Still love our title of our podcast. I really like our new definition. I was going to bring it up and I did not,.Do you remember what it is?

Jenn Jackson:

No. Let me bring it up.

Chavonne McClay:

Okay.

Jenn Jackson:

We are very, very prepared. Okay, I’m bringing it up right now.

Chavonne McClay:

I am sorry.

Jenn Jackson:

We were talking about musicals, we were up to something else that was very important, and now I’m going to bring this up, too.

Chavonne McClay:

Incredibly important. Incredibly important. It’s coming right now. I got it. Okay.

Jenn Jackson:

Okay.

Chavonne McClay:

Oh, you got it?

Jenn Jackson:

No, go ahead.

Chavonne McClay:

Okay. We changed our definition for the podcast, and it says, “To us, embodiment means the body is our partner, where the relationship can be re-imagined and be embraced through empowered play and pleasure,” which I just love. I love it so much. So, I really feel like this has evolved, your podcast has evolved, so I’m really excited about it. I feel personally that I have more awareness that embodiment can look different daily for me and it doesn’t have to be a practice by definition. We talked about a lot with Kimber is it’s not new. Right? To me, it’s a return. So, I really like that. What about you?

Jenn Jackson:

Oh, I love re words. Reclaim, restore, reimagine, reembody. Right? That was the Kimber word. Re-embodiment. Sorry, I’m like twisting in my chair. The mic probably didn’t pick me up. Okay. Back to here. Maybe that’s a purple blue.

Chavonne McClay:

I liked it. I was going to keep it since we’re already all over the place anyway.

Jenn Jackson:

We can leave that in.

Chavonne McClay:

Okay.

Jenn Jackson:

We can leave that in. Purple blue is when we are like, “Maybe we need to restart that or pause,” but we’ll leave this one in. I love this question. I thought of this about like… Let’s explore those again because I noticed… So, in the first season it was explore, explore, explore, and the second season I noticed that it was deepening and widening and taking on all these different facets that everyone was talking about. And it was incredibly individual to the person, to circumstances, et cetera. And so, I was like, “Oh, that’s really interesting to me.” And I’m a naturally optimistic, positive person. I’m like, “Yay, embodiment!” The actual theories and the publications all call it “positive embodiment.” And we really sat with this season what if it doesn’t have to be positive? What if it’s not always safe to be embodied? What if it’s purposely and very importantly safe to be disembodied in this moment? Kind of the counterpoints to things.

Jenn Jackson:

I also really got how much this podcast, what we explore, is an invitation. And we were really taking, you and I, really taking on that invitation, as well. Also, embodiment is directional. It’s not always initiated by the conscious, logical cognitive self. Sometimes it’s initiated by the body in the relationship. And that’s something I know we’re going to explore a lot more. But that’s really interesting to me, the way it grounds in the body. And the body doesn’t really talk in words in those cognitive, logical, conscious spaces. It’s like pictures, it’s like feelings, it’s like sensations. It’s things to pay attention to. And something that I also really got is that I… Even in exploring this initially and how I was taught about this was really oversimplified, and I’m enjoying not doing that. And it’s also bringing up authenticity and agency and autonomy for me. Right?

Chavonne McClay:

All those good words.

Jenn Jackson:

How we engage with like voice, choice, and genuine conversation. Noticing where things have been conditioned, internalized, oppressed, suppressed. We had a lot of conversations like that this season, and I can’t stop thinking about it. Really, I just like, this is what we do all the time, and also, I can’t stop thinking about it. Talking about it, it feels good. And also, equally, this conversation, especially the embodiment part, is teaching me how much value I get about taking space where I’m not talking about it. It’s actually a really distinct counterpoint. What if I don’t have to focus on being embodied today is a really powerful thing for me.

Jenn Jackson:

As soon as we just get, “This day is going to be hard. This day is going to suck,” I’m not going to be embodied. I’m going to meet my basic needs, but I’m not going to do a bunch of asking, or listening, really, in that way. Life is just asking me to do different things today. And that’s really valid. And I’m a privileged person, and so, of course, that brings up who can’t do that. I can make that choice. I have the privileges, the agency, and autonomy to do that, and that’s not true for everyone. So, I also find it humbling. I’ve actually been thinking about that preparing for this episode. The word humbling is coming to me a lot. So, I love this question.

Chavonne McClay:

Ooh. I love all of your questions that you write since you write all of the scripts. But something that’s coming up for me is, as you said, that very humbling… I’m thinking about how I felt at the end of season one versus the end of season two, and I feel like season… You say the words beyond a lot. Beyond, expansive, explore. Those are the kind of words that come up a lot when you’re speaking, and I feel like those are still pertinent in this season, but I feel like, at least for me, at the end of season one, I was in that place where I was like, “Let’s keep expanding.” And then this season feels like maybe expansive in a… I don’t even know what I’m trying to say.

Jenn Jackson:

I kind of get what you’re saying, but I don’t know that I have the words.

Chavonne McClay:

Yeah. It felt like season one was expansive in an information gathering way, and this is expansive in a definition way for me now. And I don’t mean to say that my opinion won’t keep changing, my knowledge won’t keep changing, my experience won’t keep changing, but it feels a lot more subtle. Maybe it’s humbling. Maybe that’s the word I’m saying. But I just feel a lot more peacefully curious. Last time I felt more chaotically curious. “I need to know more because I don’t know everything and I just need to learn and learn and learn and learn.” And this one’s more like, “Okay, let’s bring it home,” and that was really, really cool to me.

Jenn Jackson:

I wonder how this resonates because I got a picture from that, and the picture is something like… The first season is like, “Let’s do a massive unlearn,” and the second one is like, “Now that we’ve cleared all this space out, what are we going to start putting in here experimentally?” Like, “Oh, I love what they said.” I’m of course I’m thinking of Michelle Phillips when we… Everything in that conversation. I’m going to talk more about that later. But just sitting in that conversation was like how deep and nuanced can we go? How connected can we as individuals get in a conversation that’s also expansive was really sitting for me in that particular episode. And also, thinking about Kimber’s episode… This is just what I’m thinking of. I could think of any of these episodes and give examples. But thinking of Kimber’s episode, sitting in a space about neurodivergence, but also real life. How does this show up in real life is a harder conversation. So, while it’s expansive and looking at lots of other things, it’s also like, “Let’s look at this in this specific context.” Directional? Directional maybe.

Chavonne McClay:

I love that. Oh, wow. Thank you for putting into words what I was trying to say because that’s exactly what I was trying to get to. That’s awesome. Thank you. Yeah.

Jenn Jackson:

Thank you for even saying that because I didn’t have those [inaudible 00:10:57]. Okay.

Chavonne McClay:

Awesome. Love it.

Jenn Jackson:

I love it.

Chavonne McClay:

Yeah. For the second half, what does the Rest of Us look like and feel like for you now?

Jenn Jackson:

The word expansive is still sitting with me on that one. Thinking of all the different intersections and also the nuances within intersections and also how they compound, overlap, represent more and more and more of us as this conversation goes on. I actually, if I would’ve guessed at the beginning, it wouldn’t have been so nuanced. I think my perception of that was more all or nothing. There’s the Rest of Us and there’s not the Rest of Us. We even talked with Dr. Joy Cox about how that phrase can even imply such a severe kind of separation when, really, it’s connecting. It connects the embodiment part. It connects the human overall part. It connects real life stuff. It’s expansive, but also I can tell there is so much deeper to go about that. Right? Talking about identities and privileges is uncomfortable for people. Some things might come up that people don’t want to hear coming out of their mouth, perhaps. And I think that’s important. It’s a very raw area of the conversation. I like the rawness.

Jenn Jackson:

And something that I have been really kind of sitting with about this is, it’s something… When I hear us talk… Because I listen to every episode back because I love this podcast. I listen to it. I don’t care if I’m a part of it, I listen to it. What I notice is when we get to those sensitive topics, that we don’t end up as specific in this particular area. Not like embodiment. I can tell the well is just so much deeper. And I, already, am thinking about season three, and I would like to push myself to have more direct words about this topic. It’s just like land acknowledgement.

Jenn Jackson:

I don’t just want to name that I’m on the occupied territory of the Kiowa-speaking people here in Albuquerque, New Mexico. I want to pay rent. Right? I don’t just want to talk… And I don’t mean that it has to turn into a tangible financial action as the first thing or anything like that. But sitting with, I don’t have these identities, I don’t know what that experience is makes me want to explore those more with people who have those identities and experiences. I think that’s what I’m trying to say, is it’s just like… And we’ve been very intentional and are continuing to be intentional. Let’s talk with people who have those lived experiences. Not just people who have the experience of working with people with those lived experiences. Right? We’re starting to poke in… I don’t know. Poke is not the right word. We’re starting to just flow in that direction. [inaudible 00:14:10] actually give me a little bit of chills. I feel proud of us that that’s happening, and I know we can do more. I know we can go deeper.

Jenn Jackson:

You and I were just talking earlier about talking disability and accessibility, and the Rest of Us has actually been changing one specific part of how I even talk about accessibility, is that I will clarify… And I’m going to tell you what I mean about accessibility. I mean grabbable. Can you grab it? Not just is it there for you to access. That’s not accessibility. Right? It’s actually like can I grab it? Is it available to me? Do I have to ask for it? Is it hidden behind the counter? Just thinking of restaurant things. Or, “We can lift your wheelchair into the restaurant.” I’m like, “That’s not accessibility.”

Chavonne McClay:

Right.

Jenn Jackson:

Right?

Chavonne McClay:

Absolutely.

Jenn Jackson:

Letting people be accommodated and be full human beings is a deeper thing, and so the Rest of Us is so expansive, I feel like we’ve just barely stepped into that area, if that makes sense. I find that humbling. I’m going to use that word again. So, I know I’m a good listener, and we’ve talked about this before, and I’ve really been sitting in that over the last year. And also, I want to listen deeper and differently. I want to look for themes, patterns, systems, not problems. And I don’t mean like let’s not identify the problem, I mean, I’m pretty good at just sitting there logically and academically describing a problem, but I want to go deeper than that. And that deeper, for me, would be like, “What are the themes here? Where else is it showing up?” I want to notice them more so that means I want to talk about them more. Because that’s how I notice more is I’ve talked about it more. So, that’s kind of sitting for me. Great question. I’m going to say that every time this episode probably. So, good question [inaudible 00:16:05]

Chavonne McClay:

Jenn loves her script.

Jenn Jackson:

I love my own script. I get so excited when I write them. We need scripts so that we know what we’re going to talk about. We need them, need them, and I love them. They’re a great tool. Speaking of accessibility, that’s how I make this accessible for myself. So, I have the same question for you. How’s the second half of the podcast, the theme… Speaking of themes, not problems, how is the second theme, the Rest of Us sitting for you perhaps in a different way than it had before?

Chavonne McClay:

Yeah,. It’s funny because when I wrote my answer to this question on the script, I said it’s a lot the same, and as I’m listening to you, I’m like, “It really hasn’t been the season for me.” One thing that I’ve been in living in my brain on a regular basis is the idea that we got from Dr. Joy Cox, like you said, that fat is inherently intersectional, has been really sitting with me. I’ve been thinking about when we came up with this podcast, when I came up with the title, it was very much the Rest of Us felt like acknowledging, and now I’m in this place where the Rest of Us feels like accepting for me. I hate the word tolerant because I don’t think we should have to tolerate anything. I just want us to… this is what it is. So, for me, it’s more accepting and the grief that’s come along with that. I very much have felt like the Rest of Us in different ways my whole life.

Chavonne McClay:

What’s been coming up, and I’ll talk more about Michelle Phillips again, of course, but the idea of the grief of acceptance of being the Rest of Us. So, I’ve been really struggling… And I think I’ve mentioned in a few episodes that I had a lot of personal internalized fatphobia and healthism this year that I’ve just had to come to terms with. And to me, that’s the grief of accepting being a part of that, the Rest of Us. And also being, as you were talking about, experiencing that tension. It’s very easy for me to be present talking about embodiment, and I want to really work on my comfort. It doesn’t even have to be comfortable. It won’t be comfortable. My willingness to be uncomfortable when talking about the Rest of Us and how my privilege lives within that marginalization. I’m quite privileged in different ways and I don’t want to only say… But then I’m marginalized this way. I need to acknowledge the privilege even within that marginalization for myself.

Chavonne McClay:

So, I think that, like you said, I want more focus on accessibility in terms of talking about the Rest of Us. I don’t actually know where my answer was going once I started talking. It’s very sensitive, like you said. I feel very much like the Rest of Us, but I also need to be willing to be called, called out, on how my privileges live within that, as well.

Jenn Jackson:

This is so interesting because I could feel… And you’ll have to tell me how this feels for you. This is what I think is an observation. How the Rest of Us made me tense up talking about how I know we’re not going deep in some situations and then even trying to do that, I was like, “I don’t know if I can do that right now,” inside my head. And I don’t know if I felt that from you or not, but it felt-

Chavonne McClay:

Oh yeah.

Jenn Jackson:

… just at least a little bit of mirroring. Okay.

Chavonne McClay:

Yeah.

Jenn Jackson:

I wanted to-

Chavonne McClay:

My body went… Yeah. As I was speaking I get [inaudible 00:19:27]. Yeah.

Jenn Jackson:

… I wanted to name something which I made a kind of flippant moment about. We ended up not publishing an episode last season. I want to say something. Sitting in this conversation, I’m really proud of us that we did that because it was an icky, it was hard to find our bearings in that situation. And when there’s a conversation that doesn’t sit with how this should be inclusive of the most marginalized among us, it doesn’t belong here. I’m not sure how to say that. Not that I’m the decider of what belongs, but this podcast is becoming so clarifying in the Rest of Us direction, that to sit in a conversation that is not about that doesn’t fit here.

Chavonne McClay:

I agree.

Jenn Jackson:

I don’t have words. I didn’t plan to even say that. But a thought that was really important, that there’s things that happen behind the scenes in every situation. That’s why the Rest of Us is very complex. Where choices are made about what is okay to share. Trigger warnings and content warning are one thing, but to share something that feels problematic was a no for us. And I think that we had that perspective because of the conversations we’re having, and so I think that’s why I’m bringing it up now, that this section of things, this theme of things, has us thinking about things like that differently.

Jenn Jackson:

So, I wonder how that feels for you for me to bring up a name. I already flippantly was like, “Wait, sometimes things come out of people’s mouths that surprise them.” Also, that doesn’t mean that that should be published. It’s a moment, it happened. I’m acknowledging it now because I want to hold us to that kind of standard. This kind of conversation makes me go, “I like that we did that.” The shift in my being making that decision is still here with me now in this conversation and I wanted to note that. I think that’s why it came up. I wonder how it feels for you. And again, I didn’t plan this, so it’s okay for you to think about it.

Chavonne McClay:

Yeah. I agree. Yeah.

Jenn Jackson:

That’s what’s sitting for me in that. And I kind heard it in what you were saying, too. I was like, “Ooh, I can hear us. I can hear us doing it.”

Chavonne McClay:

Yeah. I’m really proud of us for the way that we didn’t just like, “Oh, we’re not doing it,” and not have… I feel like we have really intentional conversations about this and how it sat with us and how it would feel to publish it, publish this interview. It’s funny, as you were saying it, I was like, “I wonder if we would’ve published it if one of us had said something like that.” So, I guess that’s kind of sitting with me right now. It felt very easy for me to call out what that was in that conversation. I wonder how it would sit if we had said, or me or you, had said something like that.

Chavonne McClay:

But I hope that that means that we are intentional about what we’re publishing, in either case. I don’t actually know where I was going, again, because we didn’t write this question down. So, I’m like, “I don’t know. I might say something different two hours from now.” We are not the gatekeepers, but we are allowed to gatekeep our own podcast, and we have decided… Not gatekeep, but we are allowed to… I don’t feel comfortable publishing this because it’s just giving a platform to something that was very problematic. So, I hope that we can continue to keep having those conversations about anybody that comes on, including ourselves, and just do we feel comfortable in what we’re saying or what we’re putting out in the world? I don’t actually know if that answered the question. I just babbled for a minute. Yeah.

Jenn Jackson:

You did. For sure. I also just babbled for a bit because I’m uncomfortable as I’m saying it but I wanted to try anyway, so I appreciate you coming into that space with me. I cannot remember where I read this. This did not come from my own brain, but something that you just said reminded me of this. We are not gatekeepers, but we can be a gateway. We’re trying to be intentional gateways to this conversation, and the one that we didn’t publish sat in a space of feeling like the tropes that might exist in creating a gateway. I’m sorry, gate kept. Sorry, I said the wrong thing. You’re like, “No!” Sorry. Let me rephrase what I said. I think I just got flustered so I said the wrong one. So, gatekeeping information or only seeing a certain group of people for a particular kind of surface level contribution to society… I get that I’m not speaking specific here, but I’m just [inaudible 00:24:26].

Chavonne McClay:

We’re trying not to be, so I get that. Yeah. But I think that’s good. Yeah.

Jenn Jackson:

So, I’m trying to navigate that. But sitting in a place of like people only have a certain kind of value to us did not feel like it’s a gateway conversation to Embodiment and the Rest of Us. It felt like a gate just came slamming down.

Chavonne McClay:

Agreed.

Jenn Jackson:

Like in the moment, in real-time moment, in our responses, everything that happened and everything afterwards, I don’t want to be involved in gatekeeping conversations. I just don’t. Again, I can’t remember where this is from. I found it on social media somewhere I’m sure.

Chavonne McClay:

I love it. Yeah.

Jenn Jackson:

But I love this idea of a gateway where things flow in a particular direction. Right? Gateway is enter here. Right? Things are flowing in a particular direction. I want to be inviting of conversations that feel safe, brave, generative, whatever they are, not ones where it’s like, “And the counterpoint in this conversation is one that was rather…” I mean, this is pretty problematic. So, sitting in that problematic space, it’s not something… Maybe next time… I don’t know what I’d do next time. I was about to say what I was going to do, but I don’t know. I’d want to think about it. Directionality is so, so, so important to me. Gateway says, “Come here. You’re welcome. But let me show you how you’re welcome. Let me demonstrate it.” I didn’t want to have an episode out there that demonstrated the opposite of that. If I was to choose words in this moment right now, which I’m still not sure about, but I wanted to… I don’t know, it just felt like it should be brought up so I-

PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:26:04]

Jenn Jackson:

[inaudible 00:26:00] about, but I wanted to. I don’t know, it just felt like it should be brought up. So I did. And now I love that we got to Gateway, because it’s expressing directionality, and where we’re trying to go forward to, or progress to, or continue through, or whatever the language would be. I didn’t want to go back and visit, and stay in the place in that episode. And I don’t want to do it again in the future, either.

Chavonne McClay:

Yeah. I feel like this year, 2022, has been… So there’s been a lot that’s happened in the body of liberation community and, not going to get into it again because everyone who listens to this probably knows what’s going on. And also in a training program that you and I went through for Ample and Rooted. I feel like… And then that episode. I feel like it’s been part of this, for the rest of us, process for me, I won’t speak for you, has been all of this kind of culminating into what am I… I don’t know where I was going. What am I hoping to become a gateway for? How can I make sure I’m not gate keeping? And also is not acknowledging a part of whatever’s happening giving them a platform in a way that they don’t deserve it? Because you and I had talked about, should we just cut this part out?

Chavonne McClay:

And I was pretty clear like, no, I don’t want to do that. That’s not fair. Because I’d rather not have anything, than everything just comes out smelling like roses. So it feels the same way for the author of ‘Health at Every Size’. Are we comfortable… I don’t even know where I’m going with this. I know it, but I can’t get there. Are we comfortable with, well you can take what you need and leave the rest? I guess that’s where I’m coming from. Where is it comfortable, where is it safe? Where is it practical to take what you need and leave the rest? Or just leave all of it, I guess, is what it has been coming up for the rest of us right now. In terms of acknowledging, in terms of discussing, in terms of holding space for, right now. If that makes sense.

Jenn Jackson:

It does.

Chavonne McClay:

I don’t have an answer. And also, because I just came up with this while we’re sitting here so I didn’t [inaudible 00:28:25]

Jenn Jackson:

No, that really, what you just said really gives me pause. Because reminding me of the conversations we had. And you’re like, “We’re leaving it, if it’s staying.” And I’m like, “I don’t want you to have to edit that.” So part of what Chavonne does here is, she has to listen to the audio. And I didn’t want you to have to do it again. I didn’t like that. And in the whole process, something that, again, I won’t speak for you, just you didn’t speak for me. But sitting-

Chavonne McClay:

You can. It’s fine.

Jenn Jackson:

Sitting. I know, I know. I always think, oh you can-

Chavonne McClay:

We speak for each other all of the time.

Jenn Jackson:

You know me. I know you can’t. I mean, truly, you can always speak for me. Sitting in that space of what, now, as I’m sitting in here now. Once we open the door, it’s kind of the argument about free speech. We should all be able to say whatever we want, wherever we want. So by that logic, people who have super problematic platforms should have equal time to, if we were to take it all the way, to people who are like, Let’s change everything. This sucks for us. Let’s do something different. We have to have the same amount of time for people who are like, I would like you all to die. I’m a eugenicist. Come on board this little journey I’m going on. Let’s be horrible together. Why would we give equal time for those things? We would not give equal time for those things.

Jenn Jackson:

This is our corner of the internet in the podcast, basically. We don’t have to do that. It can exist out there in the world, and it doesn’t have to be here. I’m realizing now that I have a really similar set of sensations in my body, that throughout this podcast actually, I have learned is me feeling really protective of someone or something. So right now I’m like, I’m protective of this podcast. We are saying this podcast is explicit. Yay. We can say whatever we want. And also we cannot say things that are directly harmful about other people, or that represents something super harmful, without us holding that person, or that what happened accountable. And accountability does not mean a hundred percent transparency. Like we heard it, so you have to, or anything like that. It can just be tucked away and put away.

Jenn Jackson:

And actually I’m really glad that I brought this up. Yay, me. I’m really glad that I brought this up. Because I’m feeling a sense of closure about this that I actually was not feeling for.

Chavonne McClay:

Yes, agreed.

Jenn Jackson:

It’s very interesting to me. Being transparent about what happened versus transparent of, we heard these words, so you have to also hear these words.

Chavonne McClay:

Agreed.

Jenn Jackson:

Feels super authentic to me. So the rest of us, sitting authentically for us, even if we’re the ones making the mistake, which I’m very clear that we did not make any mistakes. Here in this moment, I’m like, we didn’t make any mistakes about this. I’ve made lots of mistakes. Just not about that.

Chavonne McClay:

So many. Just today.

Jenn Jackson:

That’s just the one area. I haven’t made mistakes.

Chavonne McClay:

I was like, I’ve never made a mistake.

Jenn Jackson:

I love that. That was a great release of tension. I’m feeling closure here.

Chavonne McClay:

Me too.

Jenn Jackson:

Because we stuck to… It’s like the values of the podcast, the values of us as people. Not being all or nothing about it in any way. It sounds like nothing to not publish the episode, but it’s something. Because of what we did in that process, and who we were in that process. And now that we’re in this conversation, I’m like, this is really sitting for me as a something thing. The content, the context. We’re getting braver and saying more specific things as we’re going along. I love everything about it. And I regret nothing.

Chavonne McClay:

Same.

Jenn Jackson:

That’s clo… I’m like, hmm.

Chavonne McClay:

That’s closure.

Jenn Jackson:

I don’t want to do things I’ll regret. I would’ve regretted publishing it.

Chavonne McClay:

Agreed.

Jenn Jackson:

I would’ve had a lot of strong feelings. We may have had to pull it. We may have had to acknowledge this in a totally different way. We were just both like, No thanks.

Chavonne McClay:

No thanks. Agreed. Agreed.

Jenn Jackson:

Which is why we’re doing this podcast together. Because it’s a super easy conversation. Because this is where we just get this on the same level together. It’s just natural. It’s why you can speak for me. Because I know you get it. So I don’t know if this is going to make any sense to anyone listening. It makes sense to us. And hello everyone.

Chavonne McClay:

That’s a wrap this year.

Jenn Jackson:

We’re getting some amazing closure out of this. And it also is something, that we’re publishing something that is not a match. I think is an invitation to have some sort of in fighting inside of certain spaces. Like a health at every size space, or a fat positive space, or something like that. I don’t like that kind of stuff. It doesn’t really get us anywhere that I’d like to go. But we’ve gotten ourselves somewhere I really wanted to go. Right now, in this moment, I could feel it. And speaking of being embodied, I could feel in my body that we got ourselves somewhere we wanted to go with that.

Chavonne McClay:

I love that.

Jenn Jackson:

So I feel. How do you feel?

Chavonne McClay:

Yes, I feel the same way. Absolutely. I’m in a really good space right now. Yeah.

Jenn Jackson:

Oh shit, this is very interesting. And I truly didn’t plan that. But when I did that flippant thing earlier, I was like, I’m going to have to bring that up. So I’m glad I didn’t plan that.

Chavonne McClay:

Didn’t do it.

Jenn Jackson:

But we don’t have to just talk about positive things here. We can talk about real things here. So that’s how it feels. Let’s talk about the positive things. So the next question. So I’m never going to forget that, and other things that showed up. What was a moment this season, Chavonne, that you will never forget?

Chavonne McClay:

Ooh, so many. And I don’t know if this answer came up first. Because I’m editing the episode that comes out next, is Jen McClellan. So our captionings, I’m right in the thick of it right now. But definitely meeting, I get so excited about everyone that we schedule. Because I’m just… We talk about fan-girling all of the time. I’m just constantly fan-girling about someone or something.

Jenn Jackson:

We’re so lucky. We’re so lucky.

Chavonne McClay:

So lucky. Yeah. So meeting Jen McClellan was huge for me. Because of her. I’m crying captioning this thing, because it meant so much. Because, as you’ll hear in the episode that comes out next week, I wouldn’t say that she made it possible for me, but she definitely made fat pregnancy, and fat childbirth much more positive for me. So I ended up getting pregnant in, I don’t know, 2018. And was fat. And kind of scoured the internet looking for support, and found her. And it was huge. And I feel like I’m not one of those people who loves being pregnant. But she helped me get much more positive for me. It’s just not my jam. I love, my kids don’t love being pregnant. And it meant even more when I looked at one post she put up and I was like, “Oh, I have that dress. Wait, is she at the New Mexico State Fair? That place like New Mexico. Oh my God.”

Chavonne McClay:

And then I ran into her eating sushi three weeks ago. It was just, I was so excited. I heard her voice and I turned around. Before I even turned around, I was like, “I know her. I know that voice.” And then I was just, she’s just, Oh, she’s so radiant. It was just lovely. She’s just as wonderful as she looked on the internet. But anyway, that was huge for me to meet someone who, becoming a mother has been such a huge part of, obviously, it was just a big part of my life. A big part of my life journey. And she didn’t even know how big of a part of it she was for me. Because it was a very uncomfortable space to be when I first found out I was pregnant with my first kid, for sure.

Jenn Jackson:

Oh, I love that. And Jen is amazing. We love you, Jen. And we’ll have lunch with you soon.

Chavonne McClay:

Hi Jen. I know. And a [inaudible 00:36:09] back.

Jenn Jackson:

It’s okay. We’ll we’ll do it. We’ll do it. I’m getting my new Bivalent booster tomorrow, so we will have a new world… Well, I’m going to hold all of my whole new world comments for when I actually read what it gets us. It’s just another layer of protection I’m extremely excited and grateful for as an immunocompromised person. I’m excited.

Chavonne McClay:

Absolutely.

Jenn Jackson:

And I miss having lunch in restaurants. I’m not afraid to say that. Because this is an ongoing pandemic, and it’s complicated. So that I’m not afraid to talk directly, and no minced words about. Okay, this, I’m going to answer this question, too. Because that’s what we do-

Chavonne McClay:

I didn’t ask you. Oh shoot. That was on the script.

Jenn Jackson:

That’s okay.

Chavonne McClay:

What about you, Jenn? I’m not even reading my own, I’m reading your script that I love so much. Sorry, go ahead.

Jenn Jackson:

I love a [inaudible 00:36:59].

Chavonne McClay:

I was just so wrapped up in Jen McClellan that I stopped thinking for a second.

Jenn Jackson:

Oh, we love you so much, Jen. Okay, so-

Chavonne McClay:

I love so many of your people.

Jenn Jackson:

It’s really hard to pick a favorite moment. At first, I considered picking a favorite moment for each and every episode. And also when we introduced this season, which was after we were recorded almost all of the episodes already, I would just pick two, I would pick two things. So one is having our friend and guest, Chelsea Levy, on the call, just having a conversation and realizing that this conversation was so good, and not about the script, and just really authentic deep dive sharing, that we needed to have her back as soon as possible.

Chavonne McClay:

Chelsea’s so great. Yeah.

Jenn Jackson:

Just sit in that moment together. Chavonne and I will always sit and be like, “We need to have them back.” We’re always going to be like that. And this was such an authentic, we need to do a two part thing. So that’s what we did. And I loved that. I loved both conversations. The first conversation was two hours of nonstop nuance. And that’s a rare, special, amazing place to hold with other people. And to get to hold it, the three of us, was incredible.

Jenn Jackson:

So I’m just thinking of how that space felt, and being like that’s a favorite moment for me. How it really felt to be in that space. And Michelle Phillips, anything Michelle Phillips is going to be my favorite thing. They are a human being who can be direct, and nuanced, and illustrative, and narrative, and experiential. I mean, I want to come up with lots of words. But let’s all have a body, and human experience today, in the space that Michelle created while we were all talking.

Jenn Jackson:

And the thing that sticks out in this space, and I think you’re going to talk about, probably, some of this conversation again. But sitting in this space, we already looked at each other’s answers in the script. So now you know what helps us, everyone. So sitting in a space of, what is grief, which is not what I expected us to talk about. I knew we’d be talking about liberation. They’re the liberation specialist, coach. Oh no. Now I can’t remember the third word.

Chavonne McClay:

Strategist.

Jenn Jackson:

Thank you. The liberation strategist, right.

Chavonne McClay:

I’m mixed up. Okay.

Jenn Jackson:

So I knew we were going to talk about liberation. We want to talk about liberation. Fat liberation, body liberation, liberation of people. And sitting in that conversation, and really getting through the beautiful examples and all of these amazing illustrated, narrated things. That sitting in liberation requires that we sit in grief. And that they both come in waves.

Jenn Jackson:

There are things to experience the up and downs of. There are things to get to know. Again, I’m going to keep using, saying, I don’t want to use the word tolerate. Because it’s one of the hardest words for me to get rid of. Because no one should have to tolerate anything. That’s not what any of this is about.

Chavonne McClay:

Absolutely.

Jenn Jackson:

Sorry-

Chavonne McClay:

Or have to be tolerated. Yeah.

Jenn Jackson:

Yeah. Sorry, Dan Siegel and the window of tolerance. But no thank you. I will always come up with another word for that. Right. Window of regulation is what I say. Because I don’t want people to tolerate things. At least not because I chose it anyway. Sorry. Side rant. Sitting in grief and liberation, it’s about experiencing the whole experience. The body requests that. I’m trying to think of exactly what they said. Michelle said, “Grief is about the body, and the body is where we experience it.”

Jenn Jackson:

So it’s always about embodiment. It’s always about the body. It’s always about body liberation. That’s where this stuff lives. And to the non-dualism, right? Body is mind. Mind is body. We’re all one person. And also, our ability to notice that, and sit in a conversation together, being our conscious brains, noticing that’s absolutely right. All emotional states, mood states, live in our body. All experiences live in our body. So to be liberated, we’re going to have to get some experience. And that’s of the highs, and the lows, and all of the stuff in between. Right now, as I’m saying it, I’m like, this is very obvious. But that was not obvious to me before that conversation.

Chavonne McClay:

Nope.

Jenn Jackson:

So the whole conversation, every single moment of that conversation, blew my mind the whole time. So I would say that conversation, if I was to pick a moment, that conversation was my favorite moment. I love everything pretty equally of what we do. It’s amazing. I love it all. This is a standout thing. I feel so lucky that we got to have that conversation and experience that. Experience the experiencing. It’s kind of like a multilayered experience. But I, and I live for that. I can’t stop thinking about it. I think about that conversation constantly.

Chavonne McClay:

Same.

Jenn Jackson:

Love you, Michelle. Constantly.

Chavonne McClay:

Love you, Michelle. We need to have you have you back. Just, we never said it, but we really should.

Jenn Jackson:

Yes. Because we want everyone back and-

Chavonne McClay:

Everyone, I’m like, new people and everyone.

Jenn Jackson:

They will be back. I just want to correct myself. I used the wrong pronoun. They will be back.

Chavonne McClay:

What is your biggest takeaway from this season, then? It’s kind of the same question, but also not. Right?

Jenn Jackson:

I’m just reading what I wrote here. Because I don’t remember. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. One of the natural ways that I speak, my brain works really fast. And I speak really quickly, in all or nothing discreet kind of terms. That’s tends to be how I naturally start talking about something. I noticed myself doing it less this season than last season.

Chavonne McClay:

There you go.

Jenn Jackson:

And so just listening to myself on a podcast, getting to listen to other people, getting to explore who I am in public, is a very interesting thing. And sitting with how things are not static at all. That’s like what I got. This whole season, I’m like, nothing is static.

Chavonne McClay:

Pretty much, yeah.

Jenn Jackson:

It’s weird when you think about things as static. Every statistic can be manipulated, kind of stuff. Everything is fluid. And that makes me want to be more vulnerable, less discreet. And the re-words really show up. I want to be constantly recalibrating. And I don’t mean giving myself the task of exhausting myself with vigilance and hyper awareness. With neuroception, that I’m constantly looking and seeing what can change. I mean, if something doesn’t feel right, I can recalibrate. If something isn’t working for me, I can recalibrate. If everyone is doing something, but that’s not my jam, I’m not going to do it. I can recalibrate.

Jenn Jackson:

And I always have that opportunity. And I feel really free in these conversations. Especially, you and I are so free in these conversations this season. We’re getting more comfortable. We’re playing around more. I love that. So there’s a fluidity, and a flexibility, and free flowing things. And it has real intention and purpose. And I feel that deep within my being. That it doesn’t have to be static. Even the purpose of it all, even the intention of it all, we can shift. I love listening to us shift, because we want to, because it feels important, because we’re invited to, because we created a podcast that’s a huge invitation for this, right? A clear invitation for this. That’s my takeaway. Look at us grow, look at us go.

Chavonne McClay:

Yeah. Yeah.

Jenn Jackson:

Fuck yeah, that’s it. That’s my takeaway. How about for you, Miss Chavonne?

Chavonne McClay:

So I have another answer for the last question. Because I don’t want to use it as my takeaway. So I was thinking about another favorite moment as you were speaking of, look at us grow. I love all of our episodes for different reasons. But you talking about Chelsea, Chelsea has a great way of creating this space for Oh, being so uncomfortable that I feel sick. In a good way. And I feel like that was a good moment, a biggest moment for me, in terms of our relationship, you and me, Jenn. And that she helped create this space for us to have a really vulnerable conversation about how we invite each other in on our podcast. And I mean, I’m obsessed with you, everybody knows that. But I felt so much closer to you after that and we were even more honest after that. So that was huge for me. So thanks, Chelsea.

Jenn Jackson:

It broke something, it broke open, didn’t it?

Chavonne McClay:

It did. It did. And so, thanks Chelsea for being our little tethered purple bloom.

Jenn Jackson:

Thank you, Chels.

Chavonne McClay:

Because purple is her color, even though it should be blue.

Jenn Jackson:

I though you said purple balloon. And I was like, I want a purple balloon.

Chavonne McClay:

Yeah. Her [inaudible 00:46:33] our tethered purple balloon.

Jenn Jackson:

Yes.

Chavonne McClay:

I should have gotten that for your birthday. Happy belated, by the way.

Jenn Jackson:

Thank you.

Chavonne McClay:

And sorry. And I’m getting distracted. So I’m back. But I think that was the biggest thing for me. This, it was a huge moment of my life this year, honestly, is being able, I’m not always comfortable with being that open about what feels uncomfortable for me. So that was really helpful for me in terms of our relationship, in terms of other relationships. So that was huge. Back to the question I had. So I just had to say that.

Jenn Jackson:

Can I say one thing?

Chavonne McClay:

Yes.

Jenn Jackson:

Can I say one thing? I noticed, sorry to interrupt and jump over you-

Chavonne McClay:

No, its good.

Jenn Jackson:

With enthusiasm. As last season’s guest, Nicola would say, Nicki. Sitting with not being on eggshells together was huge for me.

Chavonne McClay:

Yes, yes.

Jenn Jackson:

Right. It wasn’t very much eggshell left, just a little bit.

Chavonne McClay:

Yeah. There’s no egg shells.

Jenn Jackson:

And to have it gone, amazing.

Chavonne McClay:

Its huge.

Jenn Jackson:

I don’t want to be on eggshells in these conversations. Because that means I can’t go and grow. I can’t. I’ll be like held back, I’ll be holding myself back in some way. Being careful is one thing. Being fearful is another. And even kind of separating from those words, just being intentional. And it’s okay to ask each other in real time, what do you think? Is that okay? Would you like to? I’m going to create space for that. You don’t have to take the space. That kind of stuff. Just allowing there to be informed consent with each other.

Chavonne McClay:

Yes.

Jenn Jackson:

Ongoing consent, enthusiastic consent, was opening of everything.

Chavonne McClay:

Huge. Yeah.

Jenn Jackson:

Shattering of egg shells. Just dust now, right? It’s not there anymore.

Chavonne McClay:

And I didn’t even realize there were eggshells until then, but-

Jenn Jackson:

Me neither. Me neither, actually.

Chavonne McClay:

But the freedom of being like, I’m not going to take that space, was huge. Huge for me. Absolutely. Yeah. Awesome.

Jenn Jackson:

Saying no is valid while being recorded-

Chavonne McClay:

It is.

Jenn Jackson:

And observed. Okay.

Chavonne McClay:

Yes.

Jenn Jackson:

There you go.

Chavonne McClay:

And also a complete sentence. Yes. Okay. So like I said, I have so many takeaways. I love so many episodes. I, ugh, so many. But again, Michelle Phillips, I don’t want to say… It’s just being honest, that’s my favorite episode we’ve ever done. And I think that they’ve all been so magical in different ways. Jen Radke made me buy all of the books, and read all of the books. And Chelsea, and everybody. I mean, I could go through the whole list of how people have changed me in some way. But Michelle Phillips, I will say, has been my favorite episode to date. Because it was one I didn’t see coming, I didn’t like it at all. And-

Jenn Jackson:

That sounds funny.

Chavonne McClay:

I was so like, I need to get off of this call so I can go try and go eat, and go do anything else. Go finally eat lunch, or whatever. But it opened me up in ways I did not see coming. And grief has been a really uncomfortable thing for me. But just acknowledging that grief, accepting that grief, has been huge. And that episode did that for me. And the idea of, it’s because people don’t use that word, grief, very much, but heartbreak. Oh, just saying it right now just makes my stomach just, oh. So listening how we all need rest. And in that rest, being able to say what does my broken heart need, has been huge. That has been a huge part of my embodiment journey this year.

Chavonne McClay:

And just giving myself that space. Hearing how I need to give myself that space. Hearing how to give myself that space. And again, I love all of our podcast interviews. But I could just listen to them talk forever and ever. But I also want them to stop so I can go journal for five hours. So I just like, because everything they said, I was like, “Oh, oh yes, oh this. Yeah, here I go. Here I go.” It was just huge. It was just so big to learn about how grief comes in waves, how liberation comes in waves, and letting myself acknowledge grief I didn’t even know I had. That was huge for me. Life altering. I think about that episode, I think about Michelle, all the time. I really do.

Jenn Jackson:

And you know that I suddenly got really excited about next season, and having our ample and rooted host, Neathery, on. Because they really showed us that all of this, embodiment work, talking about food and body relationships, being a person is grief. It’s grief work. So I’m just pulling that tether between those two. I can’t wait for that other conversation. I love that. I love your willingness to take things on for yourself, and be really, really honest with yourself. That is not an easy thing.

Chavonne McClay:

It sucks.

Jenn Jackson:

It’s not. Oh, it sucks. That kind of really, really deep hard work, that’s what she said. Sorry. That’s how I am outside the podcast. Sitting in places, like exploring places within ourselves that we have not explored before, is some of the hardest work that there is. Realizing it is one thing, journalizing?

Chavonne McClay:

Journalizing. It’s very important journalizing.

Jenn Jackson:

Journalizing bout it is another. And incorporating it into our very being, as you are doing and describing, is something that always makes me in awe of just all people. That that’s something we can do.

Jenn Jackson:

To be like, “Wow, I haven’t touched any of those places.” And sometimes-

PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:52:04]

Jenn Jackson:

Wow. I haven’t touched any of those places. And sometimes that means I don’t want to do that right now. I’ll do that later.

Chavonne McClay:

No, I do but usually say no back.

Jenn Jackson:

Yeah, sometimes our body gives us no choice. We’re going to deal. Now, that we’ve brought this up to the surface, here we go. We may not have quote, unquote, choice. We can’t have choice. But the body is like, listen, I said now. I love that about you. I learned that. I learn about that from you all the time. I was hearing that in what you said.

Chavonne McClay:

I learned it from you too, I really do. Yeah. Yeah.

Jenn Jackson:

Or, ooh, I’m going to take that on. I love that stuff. It makes me or us sound like overthinkers. And this is all … well, I am an overthinker.

Chavonne McClay:

I mean, I am.

Jenn Jackson:

But I mean that I’m always escalating my overthinking. That I’m never going to stop. But actually, even though it stays hard, that doesn’t get easier.

Chavonne McClay:

That’s what she said. Sorry. I’m bringing it back. I’m bringing it back.

Jenn Jackson:

We got two. Got two of them.

Chavonne McClay:

I’m done. I’m done.

Jenn Jackson:

We love The Office, if you don’t know, I know there’s many parts of this show that are problematic and we love it and I’m just going to say it. And also that’s something my parents do now. This is what we do. We say, that’s what she said about everything. There is something, I can’t think of which word to use, there’s so many running through my head. There is something deeply calming about exploring with a constant invitation. And that’s what we’re doing. I could hear that in what you said, I think.

Chavonne McClay:

I love that.

Jenn Jackson:

And you were talking about broken heart, that’s how Michelle phrased grief. It’s in the body. The phrase is in the body. It’s so clearly in the body. And the body, grief comes in waves because the body is what’s doing that. We don’t have a conscious wave center. I’m going to go up and down. That sounds like a lot of fun. We don’t do that. The body gets to have a say. And so, what if the body has a say? That makes me very sweaty because it’s never going to be easy, but what if the body has a say?

Jenn Jackson:

It always has been. It makes things easier to be connected with that. It just also makes things really clear. Sometimes I don’t want to know what’s hard and what I have to grieve, what I want to grieve.

Chavonne McClay:

Grieve?

Jenn Jackson:

Sometimes I don’t want to know that. And also, it’s still important work.

Chavonne McClay:

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Jenn Jackson:

I love it.

Chavonne McClay:

Me too.

Jenn Jackson:

I love that answer. I love just remembering that episode. I’m even doing a-

Chavonne McClay:

I need to go listen to it again. Yeah. Oh, it’s so good.

Jenn Jackson:

Yeah. I love that. I love what stuck with you. Okay, so we’ve been looking back at season two, which we are wrapping up now, and I’ve already alluded to season three. We’re going to have a season three. So, of course we are. You’re not getting rid of us, dear listeners.

Chavonne McClay:

Ever.

Jenn Jackson:

We like this too much.

Chavonne McClay:

True.

Jenn Jackson:

Even if we’re the only one listening, I would still do it.

Chavonne McClay:

I know.

Jenn Jackson:

I love it. What do you, Chavonne, look forward to from our upcoming season three, as we continue to grow and go and learn and unlearn?

Chavonne McClay:

Oh, yeah. So I am excited about so many things. The new people and people that we’re having returning. People who are new, we’re going to have more of the conversations. A lot we’ve had in the last two seasons. People who are returning, Were getting deep and I’m excited about that. It might be digging into their specific work, something they said very specifically in one episode for 10 seconds that we want to talk about now.

Jenn Jackson:

We need a whole episode.

Chavonne McClay:

Let’s do this. So I, again, fan girl of so many things. I’m so excited about the people that we have coming up and just getting to know them. They’re people who I’ve admired and whose work I have learned so much from. So I’m really excited about that. What about you?

Jenn Jackson:

Oh my gosh.

Chavonne McClay:

I know.

Jenn Jackson:

I was just getting a little more red and I was just getting a little more sweaty. It was so nerve-wracking to ask the people we asked next season. And to be met with equal enthusiasm was mind blowing. And just so everyone knows listening, we don’t think not highly of ourselves. It’s just wild to ask people to come and have a conversation with you that has a lot of meaning to you.

Chavonne McClay:

It really is. Yeah.

Jenn Jackson:

And they’re like, “I’m so honored.” It’s like, really? You sure? Yeah. It’s just, it tickles the brain.

Chavonne McClay:

Mind blowing. It does.

Jenn Jackson:

It tickles the brain. My brain is like, Oh my gosh. That people want to have this conversation with us. That means so much to us, is the thing that I’m really looking forward to.

Chavonne McClay:

So much. So much.

Jenn Jackson:

And something that I was thinking about because we’re doing deep dives, which is have people come back with us. Like you just said, remember that thing that you said, let’s talk about that more. Also, I love that in previous interviews, including in the first season, Tayana is like, you know what could do a podcast on? We should talk about this with children. And I’m like, We should talk about this about children. Just-

Chavonne McClay:

So amazing.

Jenn Jackson:

The things that come from this conversation and having something like that said once and getting to come back to it.

Chavonne McClay:

Super cool. Super cool.

Jenn Jackson:

Mwah. Amazing. And talking about things more specifically, something we’ve been talking about already in this wrap up, what if we’re talking about something more specifically? That is a deeper dive. What’s harder? What’s impactful there? The way I’ve been thinking about this is, these are the edges of the conversation. And that’s also the edge of my comfort, because that’s why it’s been the edge of the conversation. So, I’m really looking forward to, again, I don’t have another word besides tolerate … I’m just looking forward to exploring being uncomfortable and staying present as best I can. I’m looking forward to having conversations like the one I just mentioned with Tayana and also Alicia McCullough, who will also be back. Talking about not just the, I don’t know, frilly, lacy edges. I’m trying to think about the edges. I mean spiky edges. I mean a ripped piece of paper edge, where nothing is perfectly designed, it’s just torn. What if we talk about the tear? What if talk about near that space. I’m really, really excited. I’m excited to fangirl a lot.

Chavonne McClay:

Yes.

Jenn Jackson:

I also am excited to sit in this, what we were just talking about earlier, sitting in an ongoing permissive space, an ongoing consent based space, and talking about things that we have really wanted to acknowledge. And it just hasn’t made its way here. An we’re being intentional about that. We were talking earlier before we recorded this. I want to talk about accessibility and how we want to make it grabbable. Like, you could actually reach out and touch the thing or access the thing. Not just a concept floating in the air. Accessibility. It feels like it can be such a fantasy land that’s created, but it’s non functional.

Jenn Jackson:

Like, what about accessibility that’s functional as accessibility. Things like that. I want to talk about that stuff in conversation. So, it’s even in thinking of what we’ve explored in the rest of us, I’m excited to explore places we have not gone yet, which I hope is the thing we keep doing. Let’s keep finding the area that we haven’t talked, about that yet. Because there’s so much. No matter if we do this till we’re 80, Yay. Let’s do it till we’re 80. If we do it till we’re 80, we’re still not going to run out of things to talk about. I don’t think so.

Chavonne McClay:

Agreed. Because everything is changing too. And there’s more nuance than it’s just, we’ll start talking about aging by that point. No, I think I want to do that too, talk more about aging.

Jenn Jackson:

Menopause.

Chavonne McClay:

Yeah.

Jenn Jackson:

Ooh.

Chavonne McClay:

So many things. My list of things that we can talk about is like yours, is just … but I’m really excited to dig into disability and accessibility for sure. That’s been coming up for me.

Jenn Jackson:

And I’m going to name now, I’m going to hold myself accountable. I have been reading about accessibility and I have really realized the website that I have made is not accessible. So, in a way, when we talk about something, we say, “Here, here, and here,” of a screen reader, it doesn’t mean anything to the person who’s having it read to them on a screen reader. So, it needs to be clear what you’re clicking on. I’m like, “Oh, I’d like to change that.” Opening things in a new tab. If you don’t tell them, they don’t know why the back button isn’t working, because they’re operating through a screen reader. These sorts of things I’m like, what if I make the website more grabbable? I’ve also learned, it’s not called a caption, it’s called a transcript. I was wrong.

Chavonne McClay:

I still call it captioning. It’s written caption everywhere. I’m going to change that for-

Jenn Jackson:

Yeah, caption is for a video, transcript is just for audio. I thought caption was like, “Oh, in the square parenthesis we put laughs.”

Chavonne McClay:

Yeah, yeah. Me too.

Jenn Jackson:

That’s a caption. No, it is that way because in a video, you’re missing some video content that’s not just words. So, yes, that’s there in a caption. And yes, we can still put those things into transcripts, but they’re not the same. Those kinds of things, I want to start exploring that more. The backend stuff. I want it to match what we’re doing more. And so I’m willing to grow in those ways and I really, really want to grow in those ways. I don’t know if our colors are accessible on our website or on the logos or anything. I’d love to start exploring these things, because it feels like a concrete thing to do while unlearning. I’m looking forward to that.

Jenn Jackson:

So, that’s not an in the session thing, but maybe it will kind of find its way in there in similar ways. And I’m thinking about those things. I do. I’ve also learned you’re not supposed to write in this image on an alt text for an image.

Chavonne McClay:

Oh, shit.

Jenn Jackson:

And I write that every time.

Chavonne McClay:

Same.

Jenn Jackson:

There was an accessibility conference that just happened and I just caught some highlights and everything I learned, I was like, “I do the opposite.”

Chavonne McClay:

Oh, crap.

Jenn Jackson:

So, clearly, I have a lot to learn.

Chavonne McClay:

We both do, yeah.

Jenn Jackson:

And I really mean I want this to be accessible to the rest of us, everyone that is. And I have realized, especially in this second season, as things are more like I’ve mapped it up for the whole season. I’m just following a template I’ve made for myself. Whereas the first season was a free for all for me, that it’s like I would now to make this be more of a match. My alt texts are also too long. I love writing everything. And it’s like, oh-

Chavonne McClay:

I love your long … I didn’t know that was a thing. Yeah, I’m going to pay more attention to that too. Okay.

Jenn Jackson:

So, they’re really long if they’re transcripts. So yes, those are long. I have to make those shorter. But even in my descriptions, I don’t have to make it so long. I’m like, “The edge of this picture is torn.” We don’t have to do that. But also, even as I said that out loud, I need to think about that one because I would want to know all the shit I wrote down. I would, that’s why I wrote it. So, I have to think about that. I would look at a picture long enough to notice those details. I would. So, huh, I don’t know if I agree with that last one. But I like that I said it out loud so I can think about that.

Jenn Jackson:

And I would love to touch back, I’m going to hold myself accountable, I would love to come back to this at the end of next season and see what has happened. Because it’s a really intentional, detail-oriented, which I love, and also, I don’t know, kind of annoying for my brain thing to do. Not that it’s not worth it, my brain is like, why are we doing all these details? What is all this stuff we’re doing? Why do we have to do this? Because it matters and because I want to make this available and tangible, accessible. So, I’m just realizing right now, what we talk about in the podcast is also how we’re starting to live things more and more. And I want more of that. I want more and more and more of that.

Chavonne McClay:

More and more and more.

Jenn Jackson:

Cultivating this is an incredible thing. So those are some of the things I was making some notes about accessibility conference, and I was like, I do none of these. I have to change all them. I have to go back and change previous seasons. And I don’t even think I have alt text on our website. I don’t know how I missed that before. I want it to be true. I didn’t have to think about it, I have the privilege of not needing that. And so, I just missed that. And I’d like to incorporate it, because also it’s like, it’s things to do to keep me in the content, even between recording, which is a thing I love to do.

Jenn Jackson:

Where it’s like, ooh, it connects the episodes. Oh, it’s me working on the website. Oh, it’s me making things more accessible in whatever ways I can. And this is probably going to lead to in the future, asking, really paying someone and saying, “Please look at this. What else have I missed?” Because I must be missing a lot if I just listen to these little synopsis. And I was like, “I missed a lot.” So, I’m starting with what I have access to and I’d like to make that bigger. I’d like to pay someone for the labor of letting me know what’s going on.

Chavonne McClay:

Totally.

Jenn Jackson:

Instead of me just exploring whatever I have access to for free. I genuinely want to go in that direction.

Chavonne McClay:

I love that.

Jenn Jackson:

Paying people for their labor, paying people to be on our podcast. These are things that are important to us. I want to keep that flowing.

Chavonne McClay:

Great answer. Great answer.

Jenn Jackson:

Okay. I ranted and raved in that one, but I got really excited. I got so excited.

Chavonne McClay:

That reminded me that as you were saying that you’re going to hold yourself accountable, I went back and looked, because I said I wanted to ask us this every end of every season, what you had said that you wanted to do was podcasting, clearly. And that you had a real drive to create fat positive space, fat affirming and bringing people in for supervision and helping build this community in New Mexico. So, what’s happened with that since we last talked? Even though I already know the answer,

Jenn Jackson:

We’re about to get so sweaty. Okay.

Chavonne McClay:

I know, I know. Well, I was already sweaty, but now I’m sweatier. So

Jenn Jackson:

Okay, I’m going to directly name some things. Here we go. Chavonne and I want to have group practices.

Chavonne McClay:

We do.

Jenn Jackson:

We want to own a building. We want that, ooh, here comes a sweat. We want the building to be accessible for all bodies. This means disability oriented.

Chavonne McClay:

Absolutely.

Jenn Jackson:

This also means that anyone and any anybody can come in through the front door and sit in any seat and be in any room. A space is created for their body. So, any body. I want to be a counterpoint to traditional dietetics internship and didactic program education, by sitting in a intentional fat positive space. So, weight inclusive is the term that’s often used. And I’m involved in a weight inclusive toolkit with ASCEND. We’re going to be part of something that in 2023 there will be weight inclusive work in dietetics programs. And I’m realizing it’s not enough in the process.

Jenn Jackson:

The things we have to navigate to get them as part of this, I want to go, it’s not liberated enough. It’s just not. So, fat liberation. Where, oh, where are the fat positive providers in New Mexico? I have no idea. That was just a question by one of our guests, Wally, on a LISTSERV that we all shared together. I don’t know the answer to that question. How can we bring people into this state? Group practice means bringing people here. That makes me so sweaty. I’m like creepy, creepy chills. I’m so scared of that. And it’s so important.

Chavonne McClay:

Lisa.

Jenn Jackson:

Lisa.

Chavonne McClay:

Another first time we’re going to have on the podcast who, fingers crossed, will move here and can work with us and her child can be my child’s best friend. Okay. [inaudible 01:08:22] best friends, yeah.

Jenn Jackson:

Okay. We’ll hear more about that when we have Lisa [inaudible 01:08:26] on next season.

Chavonne McClay:

Because they’re the same age. I just had to say that. Sorry.

Jenn Jackson:

Yeah, yeah. We have big dreams for there being something here that does not exist. So, I just wanted to name the sweatiest, most intimidating things that I could think of that we have talked about. We mean what we’re saying in this podcast. And we don’t want it to just be here on something released biweekly. We want there to be a space you can come to. I’ve been thinking about this for a very long time in lots of different forms. And I know you have too. And I don’t have kids. I would like that to be my child. I’d like to reflect at the end of my life and be like, look what we made. Even if it’s a show, even if it’s terrible and it doesn’t work-

Chavonne McClay:

Totally.

Jenn Jackson:

I don’t care. I want to try. I want to try. So, that makes me so uncomfortable. And I’m like, my tongue is going to start not working properly. But yeah, that. How about you?

Chavonne McClay:

My heart is like … right now. Because I looked at what I wrote too.

Jenn Jackson:

Also-

Chavonne McClay:

Go ahead.

Jenn Jackson:

I’m so sorry. Also, Molly, who was a guest this season has a building and we’re going to go visit you, Molly. We’re going to email you. You’re going to hear from us.

Chavonne McClay:

It’s on my to-do list.

Jenn Jackson:

Molly has already done this to create a collective of people who are and identity affirming. And we would like to go explore that space and see what it’s like to be there. Because I bet it feels amazing in there. Okay. I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt you.

Chavonne McClay:

No, I loved it.

Jenn Jackson:

I just was like, oh my gosh, she was on the podcast this season.

Chavonne McClay:

I didn’t feel like I was interrupted. It was awesome. It was awesome.

Jenn Jackson:

You’re good.

Chavonne McClay:

Shit. So, all of it because I said I was going to do, I probably haven’t done except for podcasting. I did that. But I was actually really okay with that. I feel like my tarot cards and the universe and spirit guides, ancestors, et cetera, et cetera, were telling me I needed a year of rest. I desperately needed a year of rest. I haven’t always been as restful as I expected to be, but I have had that this year. So, what I had talked about was, oh, I said it was a dream, I didn’t say I was going to do it, so that makes me feel better. But I said I had a dream of opening a group private practice, a group mental health practice. I’ve had this dream for a while and felt like I couldn’t do it while I had-

Jenn Jackson:

She has a business plan, just so everyone knows. And she hasn’t show me yet, but I’m just going to name it.

Chavonne McClay:

I live for writing business plans, because I am a nerd and I love it.

Jenn Jackson:

So does my partner, I bet you didn’t know that about (beep).

Chavonne McClay:

I did not. We cut that out?

Jenn Jackson:

Oh, his name? Oh, yeah.

Chavonne McClay:

Yes.

Jenn Jackson:

My partner, blank.

Chavonne McClay:

I was like, oh. So, no, I have this dream, I was thinking about it just a few days ago, because I keep getting requests for therapist and I am not doing it. And my great friend and mentor isn’t doing it anymore and she’s also an incredible black therapist that I know, there’s so few of us. And I would love to be a place where clinicians of color could get started. Fat therapists could get started, or stay with me forever, I don’t care. But if they decide to go out on their own, that’s fine. That’s a dream of mine. I’m incredibly sweaty thinking about it.

Chavonne McClay:

I thought that it wasn’t the right time to do it when I first thought about it, and it wasn’t because I think it was pregnant with my second one. I was like, nope, I started planning and then of course I got pregnant, because that’s the how life works right now. Well, not anymore, but it was working then. And I was like, well, maybe by the time I’m 40. and I’m not 40 yet. It’s funny, I was talking to my mom yesterday and we talk about turning 40 even though I still have two years, well, a year and a half at this point. But I just feel like I’m ready for something-

Jenn Jackson:

Not me, I’m 40.

Chavonne McClay:

I know, because Jen’s 40. I’m excited. I think it’s going to be awesome. My mom’s 40 is the awesome.

Jenn Jackson:

Oh, it’s the best.

Chavonne McClay:

She’s like 20, you’re dumb, true. 30, You’re still trying to find yourself and build your life, true. I’m just like, let’s just do it. We were talking about how this year’s been a big year, being comfortable in my own skin and in who I am. But it feels like it’s coming and that’s exciting. And my kids are still teeny tiny, tiny humans, but one’s in preschool, so there’s a little bit more structure there. The other one will be in preschool next year. And I just get super excited thinking about it. So, there are what, two and a half months left of two months left of 2022, maybe by 2023 I’ll be ready. And then by the time I’m 40 in 2024, I’m like, let’s fucking do this, so.

Jenn Jackson:

I take on that challenge with you.

Chavonne McClay:

Yes. So, that is my dream. I’m like pulling up my sleeves right now. Because I’m so hot.

Jenn Jackson:

I’m wearing a tank top, but I was tempted to do the same.

Chavonne McClay:

But creating that community, buying a building with Jen sounds really exciting. We looked at buildings online when we were talking online one day, and then I had to go take a nap. I was so overwhelmed. Well first I ran around the house shaking my head a lot. And then I had to go lay down. But yeah, so that’s a dream of mine. We talked about this, especially in the episode with Jim McClellan, we just blush, excuse me, gush-

Jenn Jackson:

Blush.

Chavonne McClay:

… about how much we love New Mexico and how much it means to us and that we want to … It’s not perfect. There’s no perfect place to live. But it’s important to us to help, sorry, speaking for you, to help make this place even better because I love it here. I really do.

Jenn Jackson:

Speak for me.

Chavonne McClay:

Yeah. Okay. We love New Mexico and we want to make a difference here in New Mexico. And that is how I feel-

Jenn Jackson:

Contribute.

Chavonne McClay:

Yes. Contribute, thank you. It feels really, really important to me. Now-

Jenn Jackson:

I’m so flustered.

Chavonne McClay:

… I’m like, [inaudible 01:14:12] I got to go look at shit right now. So, I’m bringing myself back down to, So that is what I’d like to focus on. I have another podcast that has been … excuse me, I almost said something ageless, a very long hiatus and I’m okay with that right now. I think I’ll find my way back, because next year I blessedly will not be transcribing all of our-

Jenn Jackson:

We’re going to pay for it.

Chavonne McClay:

Yeah. Transcribing all of our episodes, so I’ll have more time for that. So I’m excited to dig into that. So, that’s where I’m going to hold myself accountable for.

Jenn Jackson:

Me too.

Chavonne McClay:

Moving toward opening a group practice, I think. I had to say it real quick, looking at buildings with Jen and talking to Molly, and building the bibliotherapy thing that I’m really interested in. So, that’s where I am. Was that the question? I don’t know. I got really sweaty and I forgot what I was talking about.

Jenn Jackson:

Yes, yes, yes.

Chavonne McClay:

Yes, okay.

Jenn Jackson:

It was what we talked about at the end of last season. We’re going to start talking at the end of every season. And you did, you answered it. And-

Chavonne McClay:

So-

Jenn Jackson:

No, no, no. Please go.

Chavonne McClay:

No, no. Mine’s the next question, so I’m ahead.

Jenn Jackson:

Oh, okay. So sweaty, and something, I loved hearing what we were talking about before, because what it reminded me of is how the podcast is the gateway. Just like I said earlier, oh God, that made me so nauseous. I was so scared to say that. Anyway, okay-

Chavonne McClay:

Oh.

Jenn Jackson:

I was like, ooh, that means a lot to me. I didn’t have the word gateway before, but just sitting in that, this is going, whatever this is, it’s going in the direction I want to go. I know that for certain, for certain, for certain, for certain. And even these things, when we talked about the podcast, as you all know from our very first two episodes, Chavonne had a dream, she invited me to that dream. And now we’re having a dream together.

Chavonne McClay:

We are.

Jenn Jackson:

It’s just creating possibility. It’s just like contributing. Is it making you emotional? It’s made me emotional.

Chavonne McClay:

Yeah. Yeah.

Jenn Jackson:

I saw your eyes. It’s the best feeling ever. And we’re going to expand it. No matter how much I have to scream in my car before I go into places to make myself go in. I was just imagining what it might be like to have group practices, whatever the thing is, the whole thing-

Chavonne McClay:

Covert, yeah.

Jenn Jackson:

… whatever it is. We haven’t talked about that at all. That’s why I was like, all the possibilities. To be a person who is affirmed in a space that is affirming of other people is what we’re actually talking about. We get contributed to while contributing to other people. Fuck. It made me so emotional. Let’s fucking do it. That’s all I’m going to say.

Chavonne McClay:

Yeah, let’s do it. And I didn’t want to sound uncertain about the group practice. It’s such a fear thing. I know it’s what I want to do.

Jenn Jackson:

Yeah, same, yeah.

Chavonne McClay:

It’s a fear thing. Yeah. So, maybe we’ll find a fat person wants to talk about imposter syndrome on here, but-

Jenn Jackson:

Ooh, I’m writing that down.

Chavonne McClay:

My whole life. So, it just feels really exciting and really-

Jenn Jackson:

I know who I’d want to ask.

Chavonne McClay:

Okay. We’ll email him after this.

Jenn Jackson:

Jess Baker.

Chavonne McClay:

Landwhale? The woman who wrote … Oh, now I’m sweaty. Okay. That’s going on the list. Might not be next season, listeners, but it might be the season after. But oh, it’s going on the list. I’m excited. Okay, everybody for the next-

Jenn Jackson:

Who has just started publishing their newsletter again. So, I’m like, Ooh.

Chavonne McClay:

Hello there. So, we’re coming to a close on this episode. I love the opening and ending episodes, because we’re just like, we’re just here, we’re just doing it. It’s not as polished, but that’s why I-

PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [01:18:04]

Chavonne McClay:

Because we’re just here, we’re just doing it. It’s not as polished, but that’s why I love it. Just we’re shooting the shit.

Chavonne McClay:

So I talked about rest earlier. Last season we recorded almost all year and this year made the decision that we are going to take a break from, shit, November to January, basically. Which is huge for us. So huge. I’m excited about it though. What are you most looking forward to on your embodiment journey as you take an intentional rest break for the remainder of 2022? Which is enormous for Jenn, listeners. Because Jenn-

Jenn Jackson:

Yeah. I don’t rest.

Chavonne McClay:

Does not do that. So I’m very excited and very proud of her.

Jenn Jackson:

Shout out to my amazing therapist, Ellen, who is like, what if you just need rest? What if you just need rest? What if you just need rest? What if your body’s saying you need rest? Over and over and over. She’s right. Just so everyone knows, she goes right the whole time.

Chavonne McClay:

Of course.

Jenn Jackson:

We did it last year, you were like, “What if we just take a break?” You’re like, “I think you need a break.” And I’m like, “Okay.” That’s the only place I took a break. I have an opportunity to help my sister recover from a major surgery. I have an opportunity to have weeks at a time with no work whatsoever. I have an opportunity … I’m not going to see clients during the same time. I’m going to give myself Thanksgiving to New Year’s Day. I even have some people question like, that seems like a binge of rest, Jenn. What about … is that going to-

Chavonne McClay:

Who said that? It doesn’t matter. Go ahead.

Jenn Jackson:

More than one person. That’s a particular phrasing of one person. But that’s because it sounds … like I’m so defying what is expected of us in a productivity culture. I’m so defying the hustle, that it sounds like, what’s wrong with me? I actually get that response.

Jenn Jackson:

I chose that particular phrasing because it really relates to the work that I do. I’m like, “No. Taking a major rest is what if I’m burnt out from not really taking rest most of my life? What if the binge was all the times that I was productive? What if this is just an opportunity to not have to do that anymore?” Micro-dosing rest. What if I’m … because I’m going to be doing major things, helping my sister after a major surgery, helping taking care of her kids while she’s recovering. That’s part of what I’m going to be doing. But I’m also going to have weeks where I’m not doing anything.

Chavonne McClay:

Beautiful.

Jenn Jackson:

That just sounds awesome. I can read books. I actually bought the four books in a whole series about murder and time that I would like … I love murder and I love time travel. I don’t love murder a lot.

Chavonne McClay:

It’s okay. I talk about my murder books all the time. I live for a mystery, so I get it.

Jenn Jackson:

I mean, I love a murder mystery. I love the mystery about murder, not the murder itself.

Chavonne McClay:

It’s so good. That’s so great.

Jenn Jackson:

There’s a book series, it’s five books. The first book, I was like, “Oh this is what it’s like to read huge fantasy series and things like that.” I haven’t had this feeling in so long because I haven’t given myself the opportunity for the time it takes and the head space it takes to do that. So I was able to do that among work, which was amazing. Also I just want to stay up till 3:00 AM because I actually don’t have to wake up at a particular time tomorrow and finish reading a book. At least the opportunity, even if I fall asleep, I just want the opportunity.

Jenn Jackson:

Like returning to something that used to be a really big important part of my life. What if I don’t do anything that’s out there and I’m not embodied? What if I’m just in this book? I miss that. So reading-

Chavonne McClay:

So good.

Jenn Jackson:

In our first podcast season, we were like, “What’s happening? Why can’t we read? What’s going on?” I think it was by the very end of the first season, maybe even the beginning of the second season. Also, we’re overworked people at that time. So I want to not be overworked. I’m going to change how I create my schedule in 2023. This is what I mean, talking about embodiment and talking about the rest of us and talking about what’s actually important is such an important framing that’s all over my life now. That it’s like why would … lifestyle change, behavior change. It’s a hard thing to do, why shouldn’t it be in the direction that I want? It should purposely be in the direction I want.

Jenn Jackson:

Just like we were talking about, we didn’t publish a podcast episode. I do not have to commit myself to doing work I don’t want to do. I get that I’m saying that from a place of privilege. Also I want this to be a thing that privilege doesn’t determine.

Chavonne McClay:

Absolutely.

Jenn Jackson:

Both. That’s an interesting thing that I’ve been trying to find a holding of both about identity and marginalization. I was just kind of … whatever that pocket is, I was just kind of sitting there just now. Yes, I have the privilege to do this. But I want to intentionally use the privilege and space creation to contribute. But I cannot do that right now because I’m overworked in a very specific way. I’m going to need rest to do that. This work is not easy. And that’s the way it’s always been, we just pretend it isn’t. So I don’t want to pretend anymore, it kind of sucks.

Chavonne McClay:

It does. It does.

Jenn Jackson:

So thank you for that. Earlier I said all … I’m trying to remember who told me this. My own therapist, I don’t remember. I’ve said it previously on an episode and I don’t remember what the answer is right now.

Chavonne McClay:

I love it.

Jenn Jackson:

But all or nothing. All work, no rest. All rest, no work. I used to be like, “I’m taking off the whole year.” After becoming a dietician because I just need something. That’s the last time I took rest. That was 10 years ago, everyone. Where I actually was like, “Goodbye. Goodbye work.” I don’t need to do a full year. I really needed that one. But I don’t need to do a full year. But there’s not just all or nothing, there’s a whole bunch of stuff in between that are a bunch of somethings. Something, something, something, something. I want to sit in something. Whatever that is. Where it feels good to be there. Where I want to keep doing that. I want it to be interesting to my brain. I didn’t think that was … I used to think that was something wrong with me. But I’m like, “It has to be interesting to my brain.” But what if it’s so awesome and of our creation that we’re not bored? Even if the stuff we’re doing sucks or is boring. Like that does not make the whole thing boring. I’m just excited about that.

Chavonne McClay:

Yeah.

Jenn Jackson:

And shout out again to my therapist. I’m like, “What if I take five weeks and three days off from work?” I figured out exactly how much time it is and she’s like, “What if you needed to do that already? And thanks for catching up.” Thanks for getting that about yourself.

Chavonne McClay:

Let’s try and do that every year.

Jenn Jackson:

What if that’s how things are. In Europe, they take an entire month off. Everyone takes an entire month off, entire companies.

Chavonne McClay:

That’s amazing.

Jenn Jackson:

Close. That’s just one month. They also take off an incredible amount of time for “the holidays”. They already do this in these two chunks. We just don’t do that here. But what if that part of this culture really sucks for me? I want to do it.

Chavonne McClay:

Totally. I love all of this.

Jenn Jackson:

So that’s fine.

Chavonne McClay:

I love this.

Jenn Jackson:

That’s me talking about all the scary things. Also I’m holding up, now and no one can see, I made a list of declarations about exactly what I’m describing, about lots of other things.

Chavonne McClay:

Beautiful, beautiful.

Jenn Jackson:

About just what I need. Because something that I would say to my clients and I will say to myself right now is that, wants are needs. And pretending they’re not is something that we do together as a society and it’s just bullshit.

Chavonne McClay:

Agreed.

Jenn Jackson:

So these declarations are wants. I can declare what I want.

Chavonne McClay:

Yes you can.

Jenn Jackson:

I can make them needs.

Chavonne McClay:

You deserve to.

Jenn Jackson:

Needs are not like I say what needs are or someone says what needs are. And that’s where we sit. We can choose that.

Chavonne McClay:

I love that.

Jenn Jackson:

Okay. That’s where I’m sitting. I love this question. I love you getting more acquainted with your need for rest and your practice of rest and the experience of rest over and over and over. Also it makes me curious going forward, what does this break mean to you? What’s feeling like this space holds for you?

Chavonne McClay:

Yeah. I’m-

Jenn Jackson:

Is that a sentence?

Chavonne McClay:

Yes.

Jenn Jackson:

Okay. Maybe. Okay.

Chavonne McClay:

Yeah. I liked it. I’m really excited. I also want to say that this comes from a place of privilege, but also it should not be a privilege to be able to do this. I just wanted to say that, as well. I’m excited because I have kids who are understanding more things and I’m trying to do the family holiday stuff, which I didn’t really grow up doing. So I’m excited to do that like, “We’re going to go see Santa.” And stuff like that. So I’m excited for that cute stuff.

Chavonne McClay:

But I’m also really excited, like I said, I took this year off, which was my first year of not … well, it was supposed to be my first year of not working for money and then I ended up taking a small bookkeeping gig. But I actually enjoyed that. So, that’s okay and it’s like one day a week, it’s like four hours a week. But I have really enjoyed this restful year and I’m excited to see how it goes for you when you get more rest. Because I was so antsy and so frustrated by having so much free time and now I’m like, “Oh my gosh, I love it.” So just kind of sitting in with that has been really great.

Chavonne McClay:

I’m excited for having … so I’m slowly reading Laziness Does Not Exist by Dr. Devon Price. And whew-

Jenn Jackson:

Love that book.

Chavonne McClay:

So good. And one thing that’s discussed is how this rest, which is not laziness but rest gives you all of this creative energy. And I feel that. I have all of these ideas and I have to write them down and be like, “Not this year. We’re not doing it this year.” But it’s been really fun to see all this creativity kind of bubbling up for me. It’s been showing up in things for my career.

Chavonne McClay:

I’m also decluttering my house, which is not creative but also really fantastic and getting to do the decorating after is really fun. I’m excited for reading, just reading and like fuzzy clothes. But yeah, just in terms of embodiment, I’m excited to see how that shows up with my family during the holidays and have time to rest before planning whatever 2023 is going to look like for me. Hopefully doing some travel to see family.

Chavonne McClay:

Sitting with kind of this idea of body liberation, I’ve been sitting with the idea of body sovereignty. I’m pretty sure I said this in the last end episode, but this George Sovereignty has kind of been bouncing around in my head since this year has come through. I think trying to hold space … and I think it’s because of our ample and rooted training, like holding space for people who … because we live in this society where diet culture is bullshit and we’re all encouraged to look a certain way. Still make the decision to actively lose weight and holding space for the body sovereignty that might come along with that, if that’s what you want to do, how can I support you? Even though I have different outlook. Acknowledging that you have the right for that sovereignty, if you make that decision for yourself.

Chavonne McClay:

I don’t know. Just sitting with that. I don’t know where I was going with that, but I just am excited to not have much to do.

Jenn Jackson:

Sounds nice.

Chavonne McClay:

Reading, I’m really excited about Rest is Resistance by Tricia Hersey coming out on October 11th. That’s going to be a book that I dig into super fast because it’s funny-

Jenn Jackson:

Thank you for reminding me.

Chavonne McClay:

I’m going to read it … yeah, I’m going to read it at the speed of light, a book about rest. Which I’m still really excited about it, to encourage my rest journey. Yeah, I’m excited to not know. I’m excited to be like, “We’ll see what 2023.” Yeah, 2023. I felt like I missed 20 in there.

Jenn Jackson:

I had to think about it, too.

Chavonne McClay:

Yeah I was like 2020. What 2023 looks like. And giving myself space to start figuring that out. Yeah, I’m really excited. I’m just really proud of you, Jenn, because I know this is hard. It’s really, really hard.

Jenn Jackson:

Thank you.

Chavonne McClay:

It’s so hard.

Jenn Jackson:

I’m sitting more comfortably in it and thank you. I still have a long way to go.

Chavonne McClay:

It sucked. I hated it. I’m sure in our first few episodes of this year, someone was talking about rest and I was like, “I fucking hate this. I don’t want to do this anymore. I want to be active and be productive and kind of buy into this hustle culture.” But it has been such a gift for me, too. So yeah, first time not having a full-time gig since I was 16. It’s a gift and so I’m excited to just continue to … this doesn’t feel as forceful anymore. It felt like I was forcing myself to rest. Now I’m just excited for the next two months to just be like … oh three months. I keep thinking it’s November. Three months to-

Jenn Jackson:

It is almost October.

Chavonne McClay:

Almost October. I think it’s because it’s 10, so I was like, “I only have 10.” It doesn’t matter. But I’m excited. I’m just really excited to just be and hopefully finish decluttering my office. Because I’m looking at it in the camera and that’s going to be the last hurrah and it’s a lot.

Jenn Jackson:

I’m going to get a shout out to KC Davis who I discovered-

Chavonne McClay:

Oh my goodness.

Jenn Jackson:

[inaudible 01:31:16] have a book.

Chavonne McClay:

I saw that but I haven’t read it. Okay, is it great?

Jenn Jackson:

How to Keep House While Drowning. Yes. The workbook for how to write your stuff down and figure out how you’re going to do it is amazing. This is a person I discovered on TikTok. This is a human being, they’re an LPC. So this is a person who themselves is neuro divergent and is talking about what it’s like to keep house for real. They show what the house looks like before they clean, but they never touched anything. It’s very obvious. Versus like, “Look at my partially untied house that I’d like to show.” You just said decluttering and I’ve learned something magical and I can’t like unlearn this. Which is cleaning has three parts. Whichever word we’re going to use, it’s actually three parts. We clean, we tidy and we organize. They are distinct activities.

Chavonne McClay:

They are.

Jenn Jackson:

I thought they were the same, forever and ever and ever. I’m like, “I’m so overwhelmed.” So we all know I have ADHD and that means when I give myself a new assignment, I’m like, “Wow, 57 tasks, how will I begin that?” She’s like, “Whoa, what if you just have some of them at one time?” Which I love. We don’t have to be so hard on ourselves about these things. So my rest full time, which in the past I have created an entire decluttering, organizing, cleaning scheme for the whole time I’m going to be resting and called that rest. So I’m not saying that you’re saying that, because decluttering-

Chavonne McClay:

Sometimes.

Jenn Jackson:

That part. Decluttering is generally restful.

Chavonne McClay:

It is. It’s such a joy.

Jenn Jackson:

The end result is a feeling of rest, right?

Chavonne McClay:

Yes.

Jenn Jackson:

It’s restorative. Like I really mean, the whole original word of that. I’m excited to play around with stuff like that. I just have these books and they’re just looking here and I’m writing a bunch of stuff down. But restful time-

Chavonne McClay:

So much fun.

Jenn Jackson:

Means at some point I’m going to get really bored while resting. I’m just going to. I’m get bored, books aren’t going to be enough. Whatever I just set up for myself is going to not going to be enough. I’m going to run out of Hulu shows or whatever the thing is that I’m watching. I’m going to run out, just going to happen. Because that’s what happened when I took the year off. I can say that part from experience. Eventually I’m like, “I better start exploring. I better start doing stuff. I better go to New York.” That’s how I ended up in New York. So to get to play with things like, “I’m super bored. I’m excited about decluttering.” Sounds amazing to me. Because I’m not in that space.

Chavonne McClay:

It’s so much fun. It’s so much fun. Yeah.

Jenn Jackson:

Right now I’m not resting, I’m like, “Ugh.”

Chavonne McClay:

Yeah. I swear by Dana K. White. She’s a bit conservative but she has like … if you see the [inaudible 01:33:54] not this one. Clearly it’s been very two questions that you ask every single time you do something. It’s just opened myself up.

Jenn Jackson:

Is that A Slob Comes Clean?

Chavonne McClay:

Yes.

Jenn Jackson:

Oh, you’re the one who told me about that. I want you to know I tell everyone I know about that.

Chavonne McClay:

It’s amazing. So our sleeping areas are fantastic and next come the relaxing areas, like the living room and the bathrooms. It doesn’t matter. But she’s been huge. So decluttering to me is very restful because now I want to rest in these very sanctuary type places. Which, again, is a privilege that I have time to clean out my area while listening to podcasts and create these new practices for life. So that’s from my friend Becca. Thanks Becca for telling me about her because-

Jenn Jackson:

Thanks Becca.

Chavonne McClay:

We definitely have tried … thanks, Becs. We definitely tried some more 75 steps to do things. But these two questions have changed me forever. That’s been restful-

Jenn Jackson:

We get to link-

Chavonne McClay:

That’s what rest gave me.

Jenn Jackson:

KC Davis and Dana K. White, I love that there’s this K theme.

Chavonne McClay:

I’m going to have to read that because it’s shown up on Amazon so many times for me. So yeah, I might have to get it.

Jenn Jackson:

And not conservative also.

Chavonne McClay:

I do like that. I just ignored those parts in the podcast.

Jenn Jackson:

I know, I had to stop listening to the podcast. Just being real here with you folks, the two questions are great, but I can’t listen. I can’t do it. I can’t sit in 30 minutes of that anymore.

Chavonne McClay:

Yeah. Now I’m just listening to parenting stuff that I needed this year anyway, so it’s fine.

Jenn Jackson:

Yeah, I listen to something else.

Chavonne McClay:

About gentle and respectful parenting. That’s what I needed more than that. It’s fine. Yeah.

Jenn Jackson:

Oh, I love that. Oh my gosh.

Chavonne McClay:

Now we’re just all over the place.

Jenn Jackson:

Sounds like us.

Chavonne McClay:

Well, before we close, since we started talking about musicals, what is your favorite musical?

Jenn Jackson:

Good question. As I told you earlier, it would be Phantom of the Opera, which is closing on broccoli … that’s my dog’s name. On Broadway after … I got a dog during this podcast season. Okay.

Chavonne McClay:

You did. You did.

Jenn Jackson:

I forgot. I forgot. We just got … okay, I’m going to talk about that later. But my favorite on Broadway is Phantom of the Opera. It also helped me rebel against my classical piano training to just belt out, I can’t sing, while I’m learning to play all the songs from that. Some of them are pretty hard. They’re really fast or like you have to fully extend your hands. They’re hard. Like, oh my gosh. I’m just going to stick with a Broadway one because if I start adding movies, I’ll just say-

Chavonne McClay:

Same.

Jenn Jackson:

The Greatest Showman right now, which I was telling Siobhan earlier. Who has never seen it and will probably watch it after this episode is recorded.

Chavonne McClay:

Yes.

Jenn Jackson:

But those are like my two … like that’s what I watch and think about and interact with the most. But honestly, all of them. I picked two, but I’m just going to go with all of them as my overall and final answer.

Chavonne McClay:

All of them.

Jenn Jackson:

Is that your answer?

Chavonne McClay:

Well, since we texted for two hours about this morning, clearly it’s all of them. I was like-

Jenn Jackson:

In all caps.

Chavonne McClay:

I’m listening to this.

Jenn Jackson:

In all caps.

Chavonne McClay:

I’m listening to [inaudible 01:37:03]. No, I would have to say Fiddler on the Roof, which is coming to Albuquerque next year and I’m so excited. I could cry, I almost got emotional thinking about it. I’m going to say that because I have at least 12 more on my list that I could say in rapid fire right now. So I’m going to stick with that. I have to stop because I was already going to say something so I’m good. I’m good.

Jenn Jackson:

Say it.

Chavonne McClay:

I’ve seen … so that’s my favorite. But I’ve seen West Side Story Live the most of my favorites. I adore West Side Story. I’m taking a ballet class, that’s part of my rest. That’s something else that has come up creatively. But there’s this … I don’t even know why I’m talking. Apparently this is what happens when I need lunch and a nap. We have to stand to do this thing, she was like saying, “You stand here and you stand here.” And I was like waiting for all of us to start dancing and [inaudible 01:37:54] was like, [inaudible 01:37:56]. Because everybody goes through their sides. Anyway.

Jenn Jackson:

Yes.

Chavonne McClay:

I’m done.

Jenn Jackson:

I’m so glad you asked that. So, just so everyone knows, we did not know until today, even though it is actually in our episode with Kimber. I don’t know how we missed this-

Chavonne McClay:

That’s right.

Jenn Jackson:

But we did not know how much we are both completely obsessed with musicals.

Chavonne McClay:

Yep, yep.

Jenn Jackson:

And just live theater, in general, obsessed.

Chavonne McClay:

So much fun. So we’re going to see Pride and Prejudice next month together. Comes out into public, I’m excited.

Jenn Jackson:

I’ll wear a mask there. But I’m going to be in public. Super masked and in public.

Chavonne McClay:

Going to be amazing. And because my husband doesn’t want to go and I already had tickets, so yay.

Jenn Jackson:

Off we go. Off we go. That is what we’ve been doing today while about to record this and took an hour and a half before we started and we’ll probably keep talking about now forever more.

Chavonne McClay:

Like we’ve been talking about musicals for about five hours now. I love it. I love you, that’s why.

Jenn Jackson:

I love you.

Chavonne McClay:

Thank you so much for listening.

Jenn Jackson:

I’m obsessed with you.

Chavonne McClay:

I’m obsessed with you. Thanks listeners for listening to season two of 2022. It’s like season 20?

Jenn Jackson:

Wow. Talk about future seeking. Season 20. Okay.

Chavonne McClay:

We can’t wait for season three to come to your ears and minds, and reading however it comes to you. Thank you so much for listening.

Jenn Jackson:

Yeah. And the season three is going to come to you in March or April of 2023, to be determined based on rested us in that conversation later.

Chavonne McClay:

Yes, yes, yes. Bye.

Jenn Jackson:

I’m like spreading my arms out, everyone, because I’m just like hugging this whole conversation. It’s amazing. I can’t wait to talk to you all again next year. Bye.

Chavonne McClay:

Bye.

Jenn Jackson:

Thank you for listening to season two of The Embodiment For the Rest of Us podcast. Episodes will be published every two weeks-ish because let’s be real here, wherever you listen to podcasts.

Chavonne McClay:

You can also find the podcast at our website, embodimentfortherestofus.com and follow us on social media, on both Twitter @embodimentus.

Jenn Jackson:

And on Instagram @embodimentfortherestofus. We look forward to being with you again next time in conversation.

[Music Plays]

PART 4 OF 4 ENDS [01:40:23]